posted
OK folks, time for a topic that is somewhat revealing. Are there certain signs that you find to be personally offensive ? I'm not asking so much about the poorly designed ones, but rather the ones that carry a message that you might feel is offensive or objectionable, for personal reasons?
Example: I once posted a design challenge here in the design workshop area of this bulletin board, which was to design a 8' x 12' sign which promoted the idea of "pro life". It was intended to provide information targeted to young women who might be considering abortion. There were more than a few design solutions offered by several people, but one person in particular, found that type of message to be very personally offensive.
Other possibilities might be signs promoting the use of tobacco, or messages for such services as weight-loss membership groups etc.
Are there signs that you might find so personally offensive, that you would flat-out just refuse to do, on principal ? What's good, what's bad, and what's just plain ugly....in your own opinion ?
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
My first big lighted sign was for a strip club.
I replaced the protective faces on a regular basis in the next few years. People throwing bricks & such at it. I made a killing!
Ken, if you want a sign that says, "PRO LIFE", I will gladly make it for you.
What I believe has nothing to do with what I will put on a sign.
Therefore in conclusion to your post... I have NOT seen a sign that offends me enough to say to that client, "Go away you hopeless ingrate, I do NOT want your money or your business! Please go away while I caress my huge CHIP on my shoulder."
You asked
-------------------- Michael R. Bendel Bendel Sign Co,. Inc. Sauk Rapids, MN Posts: 913 | From: Sauk Rapids, MN | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ken, maybe you missed it, so I'm not judging you for your seemingly innocent topic, but Steve shut down a post a week ago because a discussion NOT about parental life choices... but about SIGNS about parental life choices... yeah, a post pretty damn close to being about the same topic you are bringing up. It was even more innocent in that it was about the layout of said sign.... not even mentioning the life/choice topic...
Steve apologized for letting it proceed to it's inevitable conclusion... citing the fact that he's spending too much time at the hospital due to serious heart trouble.
If Steve is going to have to be sorry about being in the hospital this week... lets not let it be because he's sorry we're going down the same foolish path of finding division among ourselves.
posted
i could care less, there is not much that can offend me to the point i will not swap money for it. how is that for a quick answer
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I can't remember how it goes, but there's some silly joke out there about some convicts that have been locked together so long that they have their favorite jokes numbered. One of them yells out a number, and the rest laugh.
I'm not at all implying that topics like this are a joke, but I'm wondering if there could be a page of previous 'hot' topics that have been discussed, and people say, 43 buddy, go see 43. I know, I know, probably would backfire big time.
Even if there was no mention here of a specific social issue, this ethics topic has been discussed rather thoroughly about (4?) months ago? Taking a cue from Doug, I would just let this thread die, but I have since done some research, and this is as good a place as any to post it. In that previous thread, there was related the account of a sign man that was sued for not doing somebody's sign.
I contacted a few lawyers, and this is what they seemed to be saying: This is not legal advice, see your own lawyer for that You can choose what you will or will not put on a sign, but you cannot discriminate against people in regards to making their sign. For instance, if someone from the green shoes religion comes in and wants a sign that says "Truth only in green shoes religion", I can turn that job down, because I am of course, of the red shoes religion, and don't like the message. However, if someone from the green shoes religion comes in and says he's opening a hamburger joint, would I make a sign for him, turning down that sign, because he's of the other religion, WOULD be discrimination.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
For some things, it would depend on my mood at the time and how I was approached. I have choices and thus it's my choice if I want a particular job or not. I'm thinking of it this way: if a person comes in & acts like one of those high-pressure, annoying as all get out car salesmen that keep following you around the lot while you're looking, telling you whatever you want to hear in spite of it's truthfulness, that I would walk away from. If they were however the ones that welcome you to the lot, ask if they can help & then let you walk around without stalking you, those I would probably do, unless it falls into the next paragraph.
For other stuff, ain't a snowball's chance. Examples of this would be anything along the lines of KKK stuff, hitler groups or stuff like that. I also don't think I could make signs promoting products that I know are pure bunk (immediately those moth balls that are being pushed claiming to increase your gas mileage comes to mind).
I think this thread CAN be continued without it turning political or religious IF the people posting can be adults about it.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Hi again folks. Sorry if I inadvertently introduced a topic that has the potential of becoming yet another train wreck. I don't necessarily agree that the topic itself is an offensive one, BUT, what can turn it in that direction are those who might find it all too easy to attack the viewpoints and convictions held by fellow Letterheads.
Everyone has beliefs and convictions, and that also includes those who say they'll paint or produce a sign that says anything. That too is a personal conviction, and I can respect their stance. There are societal issues that affect the kinds of work we all choose to do, or refuse to do. There are also personally-held beliefs that govern our choices. That's ALL that the introduction of such a topic was intent upon discussing. Sharing these thoughts does tend to reveal the beliefs and mindset of our fellow Letterheads, but just because you don't agree with another person's stance, that shouldn't really give licence for a personal attack.
I believe that we're all adult enough to continue such a topic, and get to know each other better, without resorting to petty attacks based on someone's personal beliefs or convictions.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Well since Kissy mentioned the KKK, I've got a little story to share. Back when I ran a commercial shop, I lunched with the owner of a racing engine shop. One of his customers was KKK affiliated. The guy was needing some signs for a rally and my buddy sent him over to my shop. I told the guy I wouldn't do the signs for any amount of money. He got pi$$ed...I mean really pi$$ed, started threatening me with an a$$ whipping and said he would be back in a little bit with some of his cronies ( why he felt he neede backup I'll never know, I'm not all that intimidating ) Anyway, about a half an hour later I see him drive up with a couple of guys in his truck, plus a few more in another truck. Now my shop was two doors down from a tattoo shop. This shop catered to the biker crowd ( this was twenty years ago, so when I saw biker crowd, I mean BIKER CROWD, not wannabees ) Wouldn't you know it, that day the local chapter of the black biker club was out there in pretty large numbers. Before these guys came to a stop in front of my shop, I quickly called over to the tattoo shop and told them to send over a half dozen of the bikers. The Klansmen came in and just about got started with thier bull$hit when the bikers arrived.
It would have been a true Kodak momement if only I had a camera
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
quote:Originally posted by George Perkins: Well since Kissy mentioned the KKK, I've got a little story to share. Back when I ran a commercial shop, I lunched with the owner of a racing engine shop. One of his customers was KKK affiliated. The guy was needing some signs for a rally and my buddy sent him over to my shop. I told the guy I wouldn't do the signs for any amount of money. He got pi$$ed...I mean really pi$$ed, started threatening me with an a$$ whipping and said he would be back in a little bit with some of his cronies ( why he felt he neede backup I'll never know, I'm not all that intimidating ) Anyway, about a half an hour later I see him drive up with a couple of guys in his truck, plus a few more in another truck. Now my shop was two doors down from a tattoo shop. This shop catered to the biker crowd ( this was twenty years ago, so when I saw biker crowd, I mean BIKER CROWD, not wannabees ) Wouldn't you know it, that day the local chapter of the black biker club was out there in pretty large numbers. Before these guys came to a stop in front of my shop, I quickly called over to the tattoo shop and told them to send over a half dozen of the bikers. The Klansmen came in and just about got started with thier bull$hit when the bikers arrived.
It would have been a true Kodak momement if only I had a camera
George, you should submit that one to Reader's Digest! Serious..they pay for good stories like that one.
posted
The most offensive sign I've ever made had wonderful color choices, beautiful typestyles, the words even had flow, it was manufactured with no mistakes, I got a deal on the HDU as it was a cut-off from a bigger piece, installation was a dream.......everything came together for this sign, everyone who sees it thinks its just perfect.
The offensive part was (and still is) the fact that I never got PAID for it!
There are those who just say cash the check, any check, no matter where it comes from. I will tell a customer that I am not one of those people. What I do in my professional life reflects on me as a person. Yes, I do have my limits, but they come up on an as needed basis.
Mark
[ May 20, 2006, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Mark Sheflo ]
-------------------- Mark Sheflo Renton, Washington A-Squared Signs, LLC Posts: 145 | From: Renton, Washington | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Patrick Whatley: Huh? We got Canadians sneaking over the border or something?
Well YES, Patrick! You've not heard? They are masquerading as Mexicans. However, they are easy to spot. Most have a thick French accent, a banana fetish, and are waaaay over-dressed for our climate. :-)
There are many things I wouldn't do because they are offensive, as I believe to be the case with most people.
Some things are just offensive enough that they might lead you to charge 50% more than a normally would, and if the job is done - the extra proceeds could be donated to the side of the cause you believe in?!
Kinda funny thinking that the sign purchaser actually donated to his adversary.
And if you don't want them coming back, include a note with the job saying, "A portion of the profits from this job were donated to XYZ. Thank you for your business and come again."
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Even when I started out, and was scratching for any kind of work I could find, I turned away a few jobs because of content. I still do that today.
Some things that I really agree with get a discount, and if I really really like what they are saying, they get it free.
So, my answer is YES, there are some signs that I personally find offensive enough that I flat-out refuse to do them.
As far as what those signs are... that is the part that I don't think needs to be discussed here.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2282 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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Oh, one thing that does **** me off is when people want a religious message on their sign. Like So & so landscaping • Phone • X is Lord... or something like that.
I think they should push their business by showing how good they are, not making people think "Oh, there's guys are X or X or whatever so lets buy from them."
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2274 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
A guy walked in one day from the local Democratic Party Headquarters and asked if I was a democrarat or republican ...I told him "Neither I'm a bussiness man, what can I do for you".
I got to bid it but didn't get the job...my guess is I bid it as a republican project and they didn't have the money.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
We asked the company we used for all of our truck lettering at the time (before I did this) if they would make us a banner for our outside shop wall of the United States Flag.They refused because it was "against their religion"
We never used them again.
-------------------- Ronda Neb Custom Imaging 912 Denver Ave. Fort Lupton, CO 80621 Posts: 20 | From: Fort Lupton, CO | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I did'nt read many of the replies here . . .
I personally don't find the question offensive at all . . . seems like a sort of common question among sign people of pure curiosity . . .
If there were any offense to be taken about anything, it would be about sometimes being unable to discuss things (again anything) in the purely objective way in which discussion helps us to get to know each other and respect each others views and ideas and mabey even learn something new. Hey! Discovery! Education. Listening. Respect. What novel concepts.
Unfortunately, there are just some people on the planet who not only refuse to accept that people have differing views, they also wish to argue about them rather than simply let their own views stand. I really rather wonder if they are as sure of their own ideas as they think they appear by ranting.
I find it the most simple thing in the world to allow someone to speak their mind without gettin' ticked-off or needing to attack what I disagree with. My disappointment is often that I assume others have the same ability.
I would think in the this life, the only things that would bear heated arguments and counter-attacks would be defending your children and property from murderous theives. Everything else is open for enjoyable discussion and proper debate!
In reply, from a personal stand-point . . . there are just some things I will not do, not only for that almighty dollar, but not even for the creative art value or 'awesome' design.
I'm certainly not tryin' to be 'pious' and I certainly don't cram my beliefs or convictions down anyone's throat. At this point, my regular customers don't ever need any kind of signs that would raise questions with me so this is also certainly not something that comes up everyday.
For a really long time, when I first started paintin' sings I simply would not do any bar/pub/ anything related to drinking. I had just come off the bottle and I had developed a real live hatred for what alcohol had done to my life and a full appreciation for still being alive.
I don't give people a hard time and I will give them names of someone else who will do ther work. If they ask, I will tell them why in the most non-condemning way I can, while also avoiding sounding condescending.
No one ever gets upset or put-out with me about these things, to the contrary, it seems some people actually appreciate the outlook, and we have generated some long-time freindships and/or business relationships from these discussions.
I used to have some guys comin' by wantin' car tags with 8-balls and other drug or sex related things that I would'nt do. And there's the ocassional teen who wants a naked woman painted on the hood of his car. Sometimes I just say "think about this for 3 months and if you still REALLY HAVE to have this go have it done."
They always change their still-weak little minds . . .They see somethin' 'cooler' or think of somethin' MORE awesome . . .LOL . . .
Actually I say this to teens about ANY thing they think they want to spend a ton of bux on . . .
You know that love letter/love song you wrote to that guy/girl??
Don'cha wish you'd held on to that for 3 months and re-read it before you impetuously handed it over?? LOLOLOL
ANYway . . .only one person (about 16 or 17 years ago) ever got mad about me not wantin' to paint a package store name on his racecar. I found out later, he lost a bet about me.
To this day, I would still be 'picky' about certain kinds of signs if one came up.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I have chimed in before on this. My shop is located in Salem, MA "the witch city" and we have a good amount of shops selling witchcraft related items and wiccan stuff, which ends up being a good portion of my commercial signage. I also have been doing custom paint work for the 2 local chapters of the Hells Angels for 10 years now, which ends up being a fairly large portion of my custom bike work. Along with those 2 I have also recently gotten quite a bit of work from the Jahovahs Witnesses, seems that they do some referral work, so I have been getting work for some individual members of the church in there private endevors. I have also gotten a bit of a reputation amongst a small circle of law enforcement, and have done a few cops motorcycles and even some work for the police station. So with the cops, the HA's the Jahovahs and the wiccans as some of my top clients, I can not afford to discriminate, not only do they bring work in from their particular organization (weather or not i agree with it) they also bring in work from there indivuals, the Jahovah Witness owns a Plumbing company and I have done 6 trucks and signage for him. All the HA's have other endeavors and businesses, the wiccan's own boats that need lettering, etc. In this town, I can't discriminate. Once in a while I turn down a job because the customer can't speak english, just because "me no habla"
Anyway... the moral to the story is, You may THINK your making a sign for a florist, but its really just a front for the child porn operation in the basement, or the beautiful sign you made for the toy store you made last week, is really owned by the mob and the have bookies in the back room. and the nice layout you worked on for the carpenter will ensure that he has enough money to buy a gun to kill his wife with. The truck you lettered for that cool guy that came in starting a painting business, is also the leader of the KKK and thanks to YOU he is making good money now and is donating more to the white power movement. Every customer that comes in for a simple banner has different social and religious beliefs, your job is to make the sign, not to judge weather or not it is being used morally. Get over it, get it done, and get on with life or get out of the sign business.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I gotta say, that I agree with you in large part....there are certain establishments that are so obviously offensive to me personally that I wouldn't do work for them....but in general...I think you have to be reasonable.
Getting on the boycott bandwagon is a rough ride....before long, you find reasons to boycott everything. I've mellowed in this regard....
However, I still refuse to buy Chinese unless I have no other alternative....but they aren't buying signs from me anyway.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
No signs for Chinese? good thing your shop ain't in Chinatown. I can garuntee, that some how, some way, someone Chinese made a profit, or benefited in some way by a sign you made! directly or indirectly...garunteed!
[ May 23, 2006, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: captain ken ]
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Not sure you understood....I wouldn't buy anything made in mainland China if possible.
In other words...if I could find a telephone made in the USA or Japan, etc I would buy that before I bought a Chinese manufactured phone....although the chances of finding a phone made in the USA, Canada, etc are pretty slim.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Back to the original question- I have yet to have anyone come in to my shop that I have turned down because I disagreed with their political/religous/lifestyle affiliation. But I also live in a pretty rural area, where there isn't a lot of affiliations to come in the shop. I would like to turn down someone based however on whether I like them or not. If I don't like a customer- for whatever reason- I find their sign sits in the corner and does not get done as quickly as I would like. I find that the design comes very slowly and with many changes- every part of the sign goes wrong- blades break in shaping- sandblaster clogs, sand is too wet- paint won't dry- everything! It's gotta be me. It must have something to do with my attitude when working on those particular signs- but I just can't seem to not have the aversion to the person(s). And generally I have taken a dislike to them for a strange reason- maybe they have been to other signmakers and then came to me- immediately I distrust them-or they want colours I don't think go well together and I can't talk them out of it-they bring me nephew art to start the design-or perhaps I gave them the price and their eyebrow twitched- to me that says the price bothers them- or the man said something to his wife that I didn't think was appropriate- or the wife was too bossy toward her husband-now I don't like them and I don't like their project -it will be a problem project! I always say "hmmmmm.........I really can't start this project until next July- I'm booked" hoping that they will get the hint and just go away. But they sometimes don't. And then I am stuck with "the project from he** that will sit in the corner haunting me. And there is ALWAYS one such project in the shop it seems. I wish I could say- "No I don't think I like you- your project will not go well here." And they would go away. So I guess its not really the customer who is asking me to do a sign I disagree with, its my attitude toward the customer that causes me problems.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I noticed a new business in town this week. It was a small loan business that "helps" you to your next pay period. For every $50.00 you borrow, you pay them $7.50 a week. If I was so low on money that I had to borrow $50.00 to make it till payday then I would think the money would be for food or gas. Absolutely the bare neccessities of life. This really made me mad because it is 30% a month in just interest. You know the kind of people that use this service are the very poor. I think these people should have a sign saying loanshark. They are charging such high interest rates that it should be illegal. I could not in good faith do signs for these people. I'm glad they didn't need any. They brought them from NC when they were run out of that state.
-------------------- Cynthia Pack 246 Diamondview Loop Galax, Va. 24333 Posts: 659 | From: Galax, Virginia USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
The Signs that offend myself are the Traffic "Stop or Yield" Because (No-One) obeys them.... And The "Push and Pull" on store doors because as you can see, everyone has 'FLAT FOREHEADS' for not being able to read them..................... Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[ May 24, 2006, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
You want offensive?... do a sign for a delusional customer who says & BELIEVES..., "my 8 year old son designed this, he's so good in Photopaint"!
-------------------- Michael R. Bendel Bendel Sign Co,. Inc. Sauk Rapids, MN Posts: 913 | From: Sauk Rapids, MN | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I think the garment printers are the biggest offenders of decency. Then the bumper sticker printers ("sh*t happens")
Because we are doing more T-Shirt printing now, I find what is printed on a lot of shirts or caps is pretty bad.
Business shirts like "AArons Electric, We Get Into Your Shorts", no problem for me.
But what is offered in stores and shopping malls is entirely different. Example: Make Fun In The Sun...Get Laid In The Shade" ...FEDSex... and way to many others to mention go way to far.
Remember a few years ago when every proffession seem to have a saying like "Welders DO IT HOTTER!" Sign Painters DO IT with Longer Strokes"...those probably are offensive to many.
I think the garment industry goes way too left on the freedom of speech rights.
posted
Old Chinese saying: "Journey of thousand miles start with one step" Things like "We get into your shorts" being a first step. I realize we all draw lines someplace or another, but there's something good to be said about the "prudishness" of the Victorian era. Those people weren't idiots. . . . . . . . . . . . . Flame away!
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Over the years I've ;lost count of how many things race drivers would ask me to put on their cars that would fall into the "offensive" catagory. Fortunately, most of the tracks owners I knew had made it a part of their rule books that offensive images or wording would not be allowed, so it gave me something to fall back on when I felt it wouldn't be appropraite to do it.
Not unlike beauty, offensive is in the eye of the beholder. what some people would consider sarcastic, humourous or trendy can bee seen as offensive or outright wrong by the person standing next to them.
That's why the make more that one flavor of ice cream. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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