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Dave, your town has been getting the reputation of being a cheap town for craftsman. There in a huge hurry on everything. Homes are built in the blink of an eye and everybody's cutting corners. It's a deeply entrenched cheap mindset that's going on down there. I don't get it. There's a lot of money in that town. It's a white collar town with 2 universities, consistantly the lowest unemployment in the state and there's a lot of wealthy people there, but the sign shops are tearing each other apart working for nothing. I've heard horror stories about shops doing 4X8 real estate signs for $100. I don't know if that's true or vicious rumors.
I wouldn't give a guy with a cocky assumption like that the time of day. He must be in a horse trading mood and just picked that number out of thin air. I find $100 for a 2X3 dimensional sign totally unrealistic, especially the 10 year expectation. You and your boys deserve better than that and should include the costs of workman's comp., health insurance, costs of meeting with the guy, running to the store, matching social securtiy and on and on. Why does he get special consideration like figuring it's a learning situation for the boys, etc? Those folks at State Farm and the colleges get those benefits why not you. Send the guy to China!
The sign shops in your area need to get more respect. No wonder I never get any work from your area. I'm not even on the same planet. I'm so thankful I live where people respect folks that make a living with their hands.
I think your market is like others I'm reading about on this board, it's saturated with sign shops. Eventually people will realize it's not a good business to be in in that area and the shops will dwindle. The shops that remain will then have a chance to make more money, hopefully.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2108 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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As Rick pointed out, giving this sort of job to the beginner usually ends up with the most experienced worker fixing it, thus negating the savings. Also, selling jobs artificially low makes every other bidder seem like they were trying to take advantage when they were really quoting an appropriate price.
Although I thought of some scenarios to make this job happen, I couldn't think of any I would want to do. Any time I have sold a job too cheap just to keep people busy or get some experience, I have regretted it.
My brother once told one of his competitors that he was way too cheap, that he needed to double his prices. The response was: "But, if I double my prices, I'll lose half my work!" My brother's reply: "Do the math."
I also wanted to mention that I appreciate the kindness in the way Bud Johnson handled things with his apprentice. I think Bud would have been an enjoyable person to work for.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5099 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wow! Some of you guys sure got upset about this, no? I thought it was just a fun thing to see if it could be done at all, not to make a living at it.
quote:Originally posted by Rosemary: Wow! Some of you guys sure got upset about this, no? I thought it was just a fun thing to see if it could be done at all, not to make a living at it.
posted
"Can it be done for his budget? And you make a profit at the same time?" Maybe and maybe. Would I do it.....NO! Why? 'Cause Dan taught me better
Seriously though, when we do a job like this it damages the industry as a whole. If I'm hungry I'd rather go wait tables or something, because as long as one person is hungry and willing to do it for peanuts (or an apprentice's wages) then it sets the bar too low for the rest of us to survive. In the cutomers eyes those of us who don't have the ability to make a profit at a job like this become price gougers.
I think respect begins at home. We as a collective industry need to stick together and ask for reasonable wages for what we do. If I worked as hard as I do being an electrition or plumber I'd be a lot better off, and I honestly think what we do takes both more skill and more ongoing education.
So the bottom line is, though it was an interesting challenge, I quite understand why some are offended by the idea.
What I don't understand is why some feel the need to say the same thing through personal attacks.
[ May 08, 2006, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Kelly, the personal attacks don't bother me in the least. I'm active on many different forums from signs to football and I've come to know that if you don't toe the popular line, you're gonna get attacked. While I will always respect informed and educated opinions like yours, personal attacks to me are just rants from folks that can't express themselves any better. Ain't no big deal. A true personal attack is "in person", not from a keyboard, and I doubt very much that anyone that met me would be willing to carry through with an attack "in person".
Now, (and this is the last I have to say about this), I'm stickin' to my guns and saying that I believe that I "solved the problem" in a profitable way for an imaginary customer on a limited budget. I got it done in less than a full day's work, all by myself, and made good money. The customer is happy. I'm happy. If other's in here are unhappy about it,...too bad. I solved the problem my way and was willing to do it when others could not and/or would not.
For those of you that need to average $125.00 a sq. ft. or $400-$500 an hour for something like my particular solution in this imaginary job, which was very cheap and easy to do, you obviously have a much higher overhead than I do. Employees, rent, payroll taxes, etc. I have things set up where I don't have to worry about that crap and I refuse to inflate my prices to match yours. $120.00 an hour (for this easy job), is not good wages??? It is to me! I'll take it EVERYDAY! If that displeases some folks,...here's a tissue.
[ May 08, 2006, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
quote:Originally posted by Kelly Thorson: I think respect begins at home. We as a collective industry need to stick together and ask for reasonable wages for what we do.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Tucker: For those of you that need to average $125.00 a sq. ft. or $400-$500 an hour for something like my particular solution in this imaginary job, which was very cheap and easy to do, you obviously have a much higher overhead than I do.
Overhead has very little to do with it. Any dimensional sign is worth more than $100 for a 2x3, especially when the customer demands 10 years out of it. It's not just time & materials either, it's the worth of the job. You think it really costs a bazillion dollars to air a 30 second commercial during the superbowl? Hell no, but the sponsors know what that 30 seconds is worth. Until all sign professionals realize what they create is more than letters on a panel, and start charging according to the job's worth, we're all in an uphill battle against the lowballers who disrespect our very industry.
Anytime someone tries to get me to lower my prices by pulling the "so-and-so only charges $x for that" I answer that "so-and-so obviously knows what their work is worth." Do you?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Yes I do, Kissy. If you'll scroll back and read my original solution to the "problem", it would be, in my opinion, "WORTH IT". It's no big deal! It wouldn't be much harder to produce than sticking vinyl on alumacore, for that matter, but would last much longer. 10 years? Maybe. Should. I purchased a sectional pit group from Roberds 10 years ago and paid a lot extra for a life-time guarantee. They went out of business 4 years later. Where's my guarantee?
If you think I am a "lowballer who disrespects our very industry", you are WRONG! I've worked in the sign business most of my working life, which is probably longer than you are old. Signs are my living. I set out on my own about 4 years ago and have done very well, thank you, so I must be doing something right. Experience and knowledge has taught me not only how to MAKE money, but how to SAVE my customers money as well. If that's hurtin' you, I'm so sorry!
Too much has been made out of this thread. It started out as just pure fun for me on a boring night when I had nothing else to do but try and solve "the problem". Now it has grown into a rather heated debate with personal attacks and insinuations. That's sad.
I want to be done with this, but I will defend myself and my solution until the end. Who's next?
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Mark....My intent was not to criticize you in any way. I found the solutions that people came up with interesting and educational. In your case you are actually making a good dollar for your work. I have no problems with that. In fact I don't have a problem with Dave and his ideas either, I may not agree with him and I am taking the opportunity to express my concern with that thinking.
You say the personal attacks don't bother you. I'm glad of that, but they do bother a lot of other people (including myself) to the extent that the continuance of them has caused people to refuse to participate in the forum, and that is in my opinion a sad thing. Still when people choose to do that it makes me feel like just hitting the power switch on this box. Still the educational value and comraderie here outway the negatives for now. No, we don't have to all get along all the time, but I see no need to swear at and belittle someone just because you do not agree with them. Frankly, I think your behavior is just fine, for whatever that is worth.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Thank you, Kelly. But I didn't see you criticizing me. You were simply stating your opinions in an honorable way and I will appreciate that always. :-) That's not to say that I can't tolerate criticism. Criticism is an art form. No?
I joined these boards a few weeks ago (found it by accident), to share and gather information in my chosen field as well as have some fun and make some friends. But I always remember something my Mama told me many years ago when I was just a boy; "Not everyone is going to like you, son, no matter what you say or do. So get over it!" Ha! My Mom is a hoot! In any case, these are by and large GREAT boards with wonderful and VERY talented people. I can hardly believe some of the work I've seen in here already in just this short time! I'm happy to be here and I'm stickin'!
It's worth everything to me, Kelly. Thanks again.
[ May 09, 2006, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
posted
Mark my post was not a a personal attack. If you honestly think that your time & experience being used to provide this imaginary customer an identity for 10 years is only worth $100 a pop, you are devaluing yourself.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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None of us here are really "attacking" anyone...There is a "disagreement" as to how we value what we do and whether or not some of us WANT that kind of customer. I know there might have been strong words spoken by some, but really, it is up to each of us to pursue the type of work that we want to attract. OUR shop would rather go after the high end, profitable work than go after the guys who want it cheap, usually at OUR expense. If we lose that guy as a customer...Oh, well!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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i had a doctor call and want to meet with me about doing a dimensional sign 4ft x 8ft...2 sided...he likes bottle green, black and goldleaf...didn't take me but a second to figure out he had been talking to others in the industry because the average joe doesn't usually refer to dark grn as bottle green...lol.
anyhoo...i meet with him...he's showing me his big building plans with paint swatches(wanting me to take notes )and he has a folder..."signs" clearly with another shops logo on it. inside was a beautiful rendition of their proposal etc...detailed with the measurements...description of materials, gorgeous post work etc...at least 5-8 hrs worth of work. knowing i saw it he casually says..."oh i can't afford his work." i thought to myself...you unethical cheap prick(mr dr)how dare you think i will take these and come up with something cheaper for nothing...he just wants more free ideas so he can have his little monkey(who used to work for a sign shop here in town)build it for peanuts. needless to say i'm passing on that job....but wow, i am amazed how some people don't see anything wrong with that. deliberately wasting peoples time. oh and did i mention he wants his website and phone number on it.
i will starve b4 i'll work for peanuts just for shyts and wiggles. fortunately i'm in a position where i don't need this kind of job...work is still plentiful and as long as i can pick and choose what i will do then i'm fine.
there are always going to be lowballers and people that will work way below for what they should. that's too bad cause it only hurts everyone in the industry. i don't think this business is any different than the others out there. i hear it from all sorts of businesses. i have been pretty upfront with people when they call because they didn't like the price from so-n-so....i try to educate them in the expenses of materials and equipment...alot of times they go...oh i never thought of it that way.
sometimes they just have to be clued in...and we are the only ones that can do that.
[ May 09, 2006, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I wonder how long it will be before we see one of these type signs out there done by someone who reads this site.
Karyn, Send him a bill for the meeting.
I went to see someone yesterday about repainting a panel above their business. The lady said she had already traded the painting for a hat, but she could probably get one of the lady's art pieces instead of the sign.
It has been at least six months that I've seen it the same way, and why are they calling me anyway if it's already been traded for a hat?
I'm gonna have to do some serious educating today.
posted
oh yeah its an education fer sure! lol! but in fairness sometimes it is up to us to educate them...i've had to speak my mind a few times when i've been acosted at the food store for signage... and then when the glazed huh look disappears...cause they just "got" it, they usually apologize and we laugh. dusty i won't send him a bill because i wasn't there but 15 mins...it was on my way to someplace else i needed to go...no harm done. he really wanted me to take the job..wanted me to call in a few days...he would be willing to wait if he had to. its kinda funny, when you don't want the job they beg you...crazy aint it?
and yeah i sometimes wonder if some of the people i've mentioned ever stumble onto this site by some weird freakaziod chance...they may figure out who they are...haha...oh well whattayado?lol
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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We don't live in a perfect World. I'm 53 years old. For almost 30 of those years, I have been involved in the sign business as a shop owner. For the last 8 years, we spend all our time with other sign people via live meets and Letterville.
Sometimes I run across some big egos and those with just a touch of arrogance and superiority in their posts. At this point in their lives, things are going just great. Because their cash flow is strong, the opinion seems to be that they are somehow more wise, or superior than others that struggle. I don't see much sympathy, encouragement, or compassion in their words.
Let me first say that I am in complete agreement with all the advice given here regarding pricing your work. I believe that I have as much talent, knowledge and skill as 90% of those posting here, yet paying the bills has always been a challenge. I'm going to lie. There have been several times I have sold a sign or done other things just for the money. And guess what? I'm proud I did it.
My life is different than some of you. I am the Father of 5 children and Grandfather to 4 others. For 33 years, I have been a Husband and Father. There is no second income. Every week, those with dependants have to find some way to feed themselves, plus those others that depend on them. Unfortunitly, there are times people like us, cannot afford the luxury of turning down jobs so we can brag to our Letterhead pals how successful we are.
There have been times in my life when I have allowed myself the luxury of feeling that I was "The Cat's Ass." We've enjoyed all warm fuzzies of reading about ourselves in trade magazines. On the other hand, I can also recall one Christmas I was on the cover of SignCraft, yet too broke to play Santa in the manner I wanted. Raising a Family on one income is a personal choice, but there are rewards those that do things differently will only appreciate when they experience their tough times.
Dave Draper may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I understand and respect the Man. He's a hero in my book. Supporting just yourself? That's easy when you are not "too good" to do whatever it takes.
BTW...those last couple comments were made tonque in cheek. Be nice to others when things are going good. Your situation could change in the blink of an eye. That's when you will need your friends the most.
[ May 11, 2006, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
What everyone is trying to point out is that you are leaving lots of money on the table.
Another test:
Some kid is showing off his 3 year old pick up to his buddies doing burnouts...and blows up the engine. They all laugh at him and he says "!st $2000 gets this truck!" You run out and write him a check for it. Over the weekend you find the same engine out of a wreck with only 28,000 miles on it for $1000, and swap them out. You put an ad i8n the paper and offer it for $5000 and immediatly sell it....$2000 profit for the weekend's work!
Not bad... BUT ... any dealer in town would have gotten $14,500 for it!
You are doing the same thing with your thinking on those signs!
[ May 11, 2006, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Si, I'm not the one with my "shorts in a wad", LOL! I haven't attacked or insulted anyone. I simply stated my case,... how I would do it for a customer with a $1000.00 budget, and how I could do it for that price and turn a decent buck. For that, I've caught hell. No big deal! EVERYONE READ THIS! If the imaginary customer called me tomorrow with his budget and agreed on my proposal, and I wasn't too busy making $150.00 a sq ft. like "most" of you, I'd DO IT! Why? Because I can! I'd rather make about $700.00 tomorrow than NOTHING! Wise man say; "Bird in hand worth two in bush."
Again, and for the last time, it was simply a fun exercize for me and I think I solved "the problem" about as well as it could be solved, short of kicking the customer out the door. Some say that any dimensional sign should go for $125.00 a sq. ft. In that case, my solution for 2' x 3' signs with 1/4" PVC (negative cut copy) glued on to paintd MDO blanks should go for $750.00 ea., or $7,500.00 for 10 of 'em. For 6 hours work. FOR 6 HOURS WORK, ALL 10 OF 'EM!!! Who's kidding who? I'd LOVE to get that everyday, but guess what? Ain't gonna happen! If it's happening with you, ( whoever's reading this), MORE POWER TO YA!!! You GO, signmaker! :-)
Steve S., that was a great post! In the real world, you do what you have to do. There are good times and bad times and that's a simple fact of life. I've witnessed large and well established sign companies with dozens of employees fold like a cheap lounge chairs when things got tough for whatever reason (divorce, illness, mismanagement, bogus contracts, drug addiction, etc.) Heck, I worked for a couple of 'em!
I'm only worried about me now. I'm not out to give my work away. I've done fairly well for almost 5 years now own my own. My experience in this forum has encouraged me to raise my prices, which I have done successfully. But I'll always remember something an old salesman told me years ago; "You can shear a sheep reguarly, but as soon as you butcher it,...no more sheep."
As you said, Steve, we are all different, as are our own particular requirements for making a living. I never set out own my own in the sign business to be the next Howard Hughes, nor have I ever claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, or the most talented. I'm just doing what I'm damn good at and knowledgeable about. Plus, I just LOVE "punchin' the clock" in the morning in my underwear! It's been a revelation!
[ May 12, 2006, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
I started this thread with intent to get some positive discussion on the board. As always, it takes a dark twist. The anger that comes out of some of the folks here for even the thought of looking at some things a different way is mind-boggling to me.
I never attack Cam, or call him names, but he sure has it in for me for some reason. And Suelyn, I don't have my router paid off. And Bill D., of course we "deserve" more...this post wasn't about those issues. Do you really think EVERY job is bid at the lowest cut-throat price around here? NO, absolutely not! We gouge pretty deep on some customers.
I worked out of my house for 20 years. It didn't take much work to pay the bills.
Now we lease 2 units in an industrial park. The pressure is tremendous to stay in the "black".
We can't afford to get pickey and arrogant at any customer or any job that comes our way. The competition in this area is fightful.
We try to take on every job if possible, find out what the customer wants, match it with his budget. "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR" is the rule around here.
"Be all things to all people" is also a motto I like. "If we can help you and still make a buck. we'll give it a go."
You are all aware of the 3 tier pricing... 1. budget, 2. medium price, and 3.the "theme park sign.
The guy that came into my shop that day just wanted #1. budget. He's not a cheap skate. He wasn't being an a$$hole. He is just trying to spread out his expenses and stay in the black. Many of you ASSUMED" this was a guy wanting something for nothing..and that was NEVER stated in the original callenge.
He asked, "Is there a way to get a little nicer sign than a white piece of aluminum with vinyl letters on it? (even that sign would last 10 years)
So if there is a way to help this guy, and make a profit is what this post is all about.
I'm in business to make money. Making signs is how we make that money. I'm not going to give this guy #3 just cause we can and lose money.
This job is no "magazine article" ... its what my old boss called a "snap-up" job. "Get the money and go...and do this type of work after the good jobs are done. The workers could just spend time cleaning up the shop, or, do this job...I have to pay them the same, and I'd rather make SOME money! That was Bud Johnson's reasoning. He was very successful in the sign business.
So, If I have workers standing around with nothing to do for a couple hours each day, why not let them play around with a job like this? Why not let them learn how to run the CNC equipment on a real paying job?
But, on the other hand, if it is not possible to even let the apprentice do this in dead hours and make a profit, then it just can't be done. Period!
All this post was about was: Is it possible? How would you go about it? What materials would you use? Lets get some positive discussion going for a change and for some fun. Some of you just can't stand that, and you dig your own grave.
Those who jump in with angry comments, name calling, bitchy replies, sharp criticism is un- called for on any post. Replying in that manner tells the whole world you have some mental issues.
If I'm not that "cup of tea" to those people who call themselves "Letterheads" it's no loss to me.
What's funny and hypocritical is that when we wholesale monument signs to other shops who have bragged how much they make off these signs...they ALWAYS try to pit me against the competition on price....they become the A$$HOLE$ customer who want it for nothing. "We'll give you the job if you lower your price." And I send them out the door!
We have discussed becoming a merchant here in Letterville. But if we start more "positive" posts and get only angry uncalled for replies, it would hurt us more than help us.
We'll stick to trade shows and mail marketing for a while longer and hold off becoming a merchant until we figure out how to contribute to this community with out being "beat up" for it.
posted
I feel sort of like I've been scolded here so I'll give you my heart felt opinion and hope you don't think I'm trying to gang up on you, Dave.
You originally posted this as a hypothetical situation, and then later you said "we didn't even have the job yet" which meant to me and apparently others -- it wasn't hypothetical -- it was a real job situation and that you were wondering about it. You were wanting others to help you figure it out; and therefore, you opened up the arguments that you got.
There's nothing wrong with your 3 tier system. There's always a practical need for a "snap job." This didn't seem to me to be that sort of job. If I misinterpreted the situation, please except my apology. After all we both live in Central Illinois and nothing is to be gained by us not getting along.
This seemed to me to be a guy who wanted something really nice, but who didn't want to pay what it is worth. I would have steered him to another type of sign system -- one which he could afford. To me if you give that guy a dimensional sign real cheap, even if it were possible, which myself and others don't believe it is, then you wait 2 days and there's another guy wanting the same deal.
This will eventually get you cornered by that type of customer and hurt the others in the industry who are trying to elevate their worth.
Most of us have battled the guy who wants something for nothing. Of all the customers I work with I despise the guy who wants something for nothing the most. I guess it's because I feel he doesn't respect me. I don't picture myself going up to a person mowing the lawn or digging a hole, or any job that we might pass along to our younger people, and say "hey can you figure out a way to do this for less than you would ordinarily." It's the "golden rule" ethic I was brought up with, and I've always had difficulty with people who are condescending and like to look down their noses at people who work with their hands for a living.
If the customer was just naive and didn't have a clue what things should cost, I think you need to school him on different levels of costs. Some pictures or examples should help here.
I didn't have a clue about how to charge in this trade until my involvement with letterheads, and once I did, they convinced me to not sell myself short. Several years ago I was fired by Jane when it came to all things money, because I just didn't get it and she did. I was like you, trying to justify it all. So we went with our strong suit and it was Jane. Now we have money to pay the bills and put some away which we richly deserve for our efforts.
I don't know if there's a solution for the fierce competition you folks have in your city, except eventually people will realize you can't make a decent living at it and they will choose another way to earn a buck. I suspect the newbees will get out first. You will probably still be around, because you're an experienced survivor, and I hope you can then tell guys like this customer to take a hike. You deserve it.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2108 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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A footnote here about your boys, because I have a son working for me as well. I think Bud Johnson was wrong, you probably will disagree, because it seems he might have been your mentor.
You only allow a certain quality to leave your shop and never tell a customer "you get what you paid for" in regards to work that has your name on it. Because the truth of the matter is when that customer gets out in public he's going to say "Draper" did it ... period. Any profit you might have realized has just gone out the door in bad advertising.
To me you teach your kids on your own time. At the end of the year you figure out what this education has cost you and you divide it fairly among all your customers and make it a part of your overhead.
I plan to send Joe to seminars in the future and he will go with us to as many letterhead events as possible. I think I have a blue-chipper in him and hope he carrys on the family name.
When I painted all my signs by hand, I had an employee who I taught to hand letter. I gave him only the jobs I knew he could do to help out. As time went on, I gave him more jobs as his lettering improved. I stayed after he left each night and straightened the unexceptable lettering he did before the job left the shop. In most cases, he didn't know I did this, because I didn't want him to get discouraged or lose his confidence. At that point in time he couldn't see what was incorrect.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2108 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Good points, Bill, and I certainly didn't mean to be scolding to any one specific. I wasn't surprised that the thread turned dark, it always does.
Its too bad when the main target issue gets sidetracked, and those with lots of business experience are not going to offer suggestions from "fear of fire".
One problem nobody adressed is that if this guy was one of your regular customers, spent more money on the bigger, nicer projects, but needed a budget solution on this project, maybe you WOULDN'T send him out the door so fast. YOU WOULD TRY FIND A SOLUTION...or am I wrong?
And on the issue of doing less than quality work on this project that would come back to bite you in the butt, just to make a profit, "budget" work still has to have integrity. Again the question was raised "Could it be done, for that price?" (crapy workmanship was NEVER part of the deal)
posted
you both have great points....and since everyones situation is different, all you can do is what's best for you and your family. i think people get so ripped about low pricing because we have all taken it up the poop shoot a time or two...and those are the times ya wish ya charged more!(and had ky...doooh...sorry)
dave...you're a-ok in my book. i have had a similar situation (great customer but had a low budget project)a year or so ago and things got alittle like this. we all do things for less sometimes...there's always reasons to justify...i think you got some good answers for your project regardless if cam, bill, or myself would take a project like this on...i might for a relative, friend or cause i believed in.
my only real beef is when "we" bow down to customers unrealistic expectations...cause we let them. that's been something i struggled with for years...i think i've got a hold on it but sometimes the situation arises and it goes up my butt sideways....then i get all tough-n-shyt!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Mark, I won't argue that you could do the job in a day. My only question is, based on the materials you listed, do you think that they would get the required 10 year lifespan as Dave posted in his original thread?
There's the rub...the customer comes in not only with a budget, which you may be able to work within, but also states what the WARRANTY will be on them. How is this so? He's not a sign maker.
Let's think a second about this. Eight years go by and 2 of the signs fail. Just 2. In eight years the cost of repairiing the signs is probably gonna be more than what it cost to make them in the here and now, but this guy's got you over a barrel with the warranty and gonna make you hold to it. So...you make two signs for $200 plus inflation...call it $250, or nearly the same amount that Mark had for the cost of the materials for ALL 10 signs. If 4 of them let go, you well on your way to losing money on this one.
I think you can fill in the rest from here.
If a customer wants to hold you not only to a budget, but a warranty as well, there's no give. To come under budget and make a few bucks is doable, but doing a job that is expected to last 10 years is going to take more durable materials and they cost more...period.
This guys wants his cake and to eat it, too...but it's likely gonna be a stale one when the lesser materials fail in the long haul.
Give them a price for the good stuff, but if they have a budget that sacrifices quality, the warranty ends there. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I didn't read through all the suggestions, but if he came to my shop I would give him a phone number and directions to my competition.
They love working for nothing.
A dimensional sign for $100?? 2x3??? hahahaha
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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Ray, you make good points. I started not to repy, 'cause it's time this thread died, me thinks, but since I'm in it up to my neck...LOL!...
The weak point(s) of my idea is the MDO and paint. I did say that I would use top quality primers and paint for the MDO (and I would fill any holes in the edges with caulk), and I have personally witnessed such treatment on flush-mounted MDO panels (signs) to last for over 10 years, no problems. By the same token, I painted my house (T1-11 plywood) 12 years ago with quality primers and paints and it still looks good, thank gawd!
In rethinking this a little bit, though, the "customer" wants to do his own installs. Fine. I would make the 10 year warranty contingent on him installing the signs exactly as I say to and to my approval,... or no warranty. Flush-mounted on brick walls, for instance, would require a minimum of 10 TapCon screws per sign and on 1/4" stand-offs or spacers, so no water could collect behind the signs and the MDO would stay dry and prevent warpage.
Fair enough?
[ May 17, 2006, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
posted
I read through some of them, some are pretty ingenious. I would lose all interest when they wanted 10 year +, dimensional, and under $100. My pricing would put a 2'x3' 1/2" MDO at $145 with simple lettering. Add 15% for 3/4". Something else I do to extend the life of MDO is rout a radius on both edges. Then prime and paint. The hard 90' corner will make the paint fail sooner.
It's the WalMart mentality this country is coming to. One person mentioned "'some' is better than 'none' when it comes to pay - it will keep the employees working". I remember one local sign guy called it his "thru put" work. The only place it got him was out of business, divorced because of no money, and he eventually moved out of state.
I still feel that if you DEVALUE what you do, you can never back up to what it is worth. That customer will NEVER forget the cut rate price.
I may sound like an A$$ on here sometimes, but in every instance it relates to charging what the job is worth.
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Oh, I agree with ya, Jerry. It was just a fun exercize for me. I get much better $$$ for my demensional signs in "real life", and $145.00-$150.00 would be my normal minimum for a 2' x 3' MDO with simple glued-on lettering.
I like your idea about routing a radius on the MDO corners. Never thought of that before! Thanks for the tip!
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