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Last year Ron Percell gave me a piece of glass to gild. It was screen printed already so I just needed to gild it and add some color.
Yesterday I carefully cleaned it and got my size ready for water gilding. I flooded the surface with the size and all seemed fine, until I flooded it the second time. The size brush started picking up the screen printed image and depositing it in new places on the glass. Further down, unaided by the brush, other pieces of the image started sliding down the glass.
It was so horrifying. I just sat there in silence, and then started to laugh. I couldn't believe it. ARGHHH!!!
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Good grief...was that water size or did you accidentally get into some rapid remover. I can't imagine what they screened that with. I wouldn't be laughing, I'd be growling.....
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Russ, I remember having something similar happen to me. I cleaned the glass, water sized and gilded, backed up, and went to lunch. After lunch I started to clean off the excess gold and letters moved. I couldn't believe it. I cleaned off everything and started over. Same thing happened, only the next day my size was crawling when I went to do a hot water wash. The problem for me was a fine film of grease from an air conditioner in the back of the restaurant.
Your situation sounds like the oils dried up in the ink. I think the oils not only bond, but repel the water size from penetrating under the black.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Could you guys explain all this to me, s-l-o-w-l-y? I'm not familiar with the steps for a project like this.
Was the screened lettering reverse or 'forward'? (Front side of glass or back)
Why was the area 'flooded'? Was a big area to be covered?
Was the size SUPPOSED to penetrate under the black?
Was the black solvent based, does it matter?
Thanks for any help
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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James, the lettering was reversed, on the back side of the glass. The ink was solvent based - "backup black" I think. The gelatin size was not supposed to penetrate the ink or go under it.
I was gilding a fairly large area. I'm not the most experienced water gilder, but I've been told you should flood the size onto the glass in order to avoid streaks. It's just gelatin and distilled water. I wouldn't expect it to lift the letters. I'm wondering if it was a difference in humidity. Like Rick said, it may have dried up the ink. I'm also wondering if temperature could be a factor. The glass has been stored in a garage that was freezing all winter. Just for clarification, it was at room temperature before I attempted to do anything with it.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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So I take it the idea was to have black lettering and stripes 'on top of' gold panels, ribbons etc.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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James, gold looks best if outlined in black. It is frequently much easier to paint the outlines and shadows in black first, then apply the gild to these 'panelled' areas.
The alternate way is to gild, back up, clean the excess gold off, then outline in black. There are pros & cons for each way. Whatever black is used has to be a quick drying, very durable & dense black, almost always an enamel type.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Same thing happened at Black Hills Gold Rush 6.... The ink mfg. had changed ownership, i believe, had the same labels, but different makeup.... oh well, we cleaned off lots of panels, re-screened with Dekor, all went well. Some opted to finish panels, without using watersize, o/shot size and paints were ok to use. Sure Freaked out Grizz, tho,as he was demo-ing the water size and leaf magic! lol.
john
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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John, I'll never forget the look on Griz's face when that happened! Pure disbelief! It is good for the masses to see stuff like that and understand that even those who are knowlegeable run into road blocks - or letterslides. I had problems with an ink once too - it was recommended for printing on glass by the manufacturer, worked slick - couldn't scrape it off, and it didn't move when I painted 1 shot over it, but as soon as I ran water over it the ink slid right off the glass. The good thing was I was testing the ink before doing my project.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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What I know about glass guilding wouldn't fill a dixie cup, but I couldn't help but notice that the ink broke in a pattern diagonally. Just wondering if that leaves a clue as to what caused the problem. Streaks from preparation? Contaminated rag? Greasy potato chip fingers?
Bueller? Bueller?
Just curious... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Russ, The piece of glass you got was printed as an "extra" in black only for anyone who did not get a piece gilded in time for the first back-up print. It was not cleaned as good as the rest were because they were still "dirty" in the pile.
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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These panels were never meant to be water gilded, but rather just for oil based decoration.
The black had not been clear coated with a varnish to protect it from possible exspansion and contraction conditions occuring when using the water size.
As Rick said, the oils had dried out, leaving a pile of pigment on top of a thin film of paint.
John L., I'd be curious about several factors with the difficulties, was there hardener, over thinning, or as you said a change in formula.
John A. is also right, with the screens set up, it was a good time to also let some folks get some pull time in on the screens for practice.
Good Luck!
-------------------- Ron Percell Percell Signs 707-769-0639 Petaluma, California
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