A salesman for a company that I worked for several years ago left, and started his own company. I bumped into him a couple of times over the last year, and I told him that I was a free lance graphic artist / draftsman, and gave him a card...
Earlier this week he called me and wanted me to meet with him about a project he had going on, and wanted me to do some engineering drawings for him. I met with him, and he told me that he had a job that he had been working on for a couple of years to get, and finally got it. He wanted it done right, and wanted stamped engineering drawings.
I told him that I was not certified to stamp drawings, but I could find someone that could. He wanted me to work with the engineer, design the structural pole, foundation, and cab't design. He needed to at least know what size pole to get so that he could order it by today (because his steel prices were going up today). Going over the design, I found out that he would like to go with a single pole design, and wanted to try to keep the base pole in the 12" dia. range.
Well, I got in touch with a company down in TN that was certified, and only charged $130 for stamped drawings. I talked to the engineer, and e-mailed him a pdf showing what my client was planning on building.
The engineer e-mailed me later that day with the pole spec's, which is an 18" dia. .375 wall pipe, and I called my client and told him the preliminary pole sizes and he hits the roof. He starts going on about there is no way that he would need that much of a pipe, the engineer is over building, he has to get his head out of his (you know where), and on and on...
So I tell him that I will see what I can come up with. I call the engineer back and tell him that my client wants to try to save money, so is it possible to substitue 2 10 3/4" dia. pipes (that are together rated slightly stronger than the 18")? He tells me that to figure he would normally charge to find out, but he would tell me this time.
I get the pipe sizes, call my client back and tell him that he would have to use (2) 16" dia poles, but he would save money with a single pole, becasue it's 1/2 the welding, 1/2 the foundation, 1/2 the work than a 2 pole system.
He tells me that I have got to find someone else, he just can deal with this engineer. Well, I had enough, and told him that I have to follow the engineer's recommendations, because I figured the calcs, and came up with something a lot bigger than what he did (it had been years since I had even thought about engineering sign structures).
I told him that I would call the engineer back, put a hold on the work, and get the bill for the work thus far. He would receive a bill for the work that I had invested, and until he decided to allow me to do my job, then he should find his own engineering firm.
I called the engineer back, and left him a voice mail, letting him know that I just fired my client, let me know how much I owe him for the work so far. He e-mailed me back and told me that he understood what I had delt with, and there would not be a charge.
So, do I do a quick drawing showing some of the info that I know, and charge the client for the work that I have in so far (he knows my hourly rate is $35), or chalk this up to lost time?
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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I tend to not burn my bridges behind me. As much as you'd like to do ----oh----whatever to this character. The ill will and damage this guy could spread around (and it sounds like he is one of those)is just not worth the 10 seconds of satisfaction you think you are getting.You might mend fences someday on a normal project, who knows. But I'd just say you know this engineer is a pretty good fellow, he's going to forgive us on this one. Maybe we can get together on something else someday. Thgen think what you want after you hang up.
-------------------- Robert M. Kistler South Bend Screen Process, Inc. 2018 S. Franklin St. South Bend IN 46613 Posts: 131 | From: South Bend Indiana | Registered: Jul 2003
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O Yeah. Don'cha love people who want engineering specs and results to fit within THEIR pre-conceived notion of what works. (HIS engineering degree came from where?...I thought so.) This clown may or may not find an engineer to sign off on doing a half-assed job on the cheap, but I doubt it - if there was a failure resulting in property damage or injury, the engineer would be held responsible.
I would politely sign off and not get involved any further. He sounds like the kind of guy that will waste a whole lot of your time if you let him, and worse, will do his utmost to spread the pain to everyone involved if there's a disaster.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Cam Bortz: He sounds like the kind of guy that will waste a whole lot of your time if you let him, and worse, will do his utmost to spread the pain to everyone involved if there's a disaster.
Thats exactly why, If I were to go ahead and get the stamped drawings, 1 would be going into my files, so that if it were to ever blow down, I have come coverage that I did my job.
Man I hate CYOA...
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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Mark, The only thing I saw that gave me cause for concern was $35 per hour. You're a professional with skills and I assume talent. If you want to continue in this field - and hopefully make a living at it - raise your rates! $75 per hour is fine $60 if you must. Overhead, and all, will gobble up a lot of money.
Try hiking your rate.
[ April 28, 2006, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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I took notice of the same thing as Gene. You couldn't get a plumber or a mechanic for that kind of money and just about anyone can be trained to do that. Having skill along with talent should certainly bring in much more.
-------------------- Tracie Johnson Signovations Ventura, California Posts: 444 | From: Ventura, California | Registered: Nov 2005
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forget the charge you've wasted enough time on this guy. burn the bridge you dont want to deal with him again...DO YOU!? let it go and move onto something else. the guy aint gonna change.
and as far as "engineers drawing" YES! they do go waaaaaayyyyyy over the line sometimes and ask for alot more than what needs to be done. but im not starting another thread on that.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
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Well, when your butt's on the line you do tend to do what you can to protect it. When the sign gets blown over and kills someone or damages some property, guess who gets named in the lawsuit? Better to be safer and have your ducks in a row.
I'm more blown away by his deadline to get calcs being based on steel prices. That's pretty laughable. This guy's gotta be a total joker or high on meth.
Skyscrapers are more my thing than sign engineering and I may be way off base but even a 12" diameter pole is pretty massive. That's gotta be a fairly tall setup especially if the engineer says it needs to be 18", but nonetheless, it's obviously a taller sign or at least something with a pretty big face to act as a sail. A sign like that is likely, or at least *should* be, expensive enough that an increase in steel prices isn't going to affect the bottom line that much, relatively speaking. If it does, he should have built more profit into it in the first place.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Hmmmmmmmmm. i did a 8x8 dual face sign that stood on a older 14/12" pole about 15 ft up... It made it thru a cat 2 hurricane. But katrina blew it over even after the faces became space shuttles..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Mike Pipes: That's gotta be a fairly tall setup especially if the engineer says it needs to be 18", but nonetheless, it's obviously a taller sign or at least something with a pretty big face to act as a sail. A sign like that is likely, or at least *should* be, expensive enough that an increase in steel prices isn't going to affect the bottom line that much, relatively speaking. If it does, he should have built more profit into it in the first place.
The sign is a solid sign, 35' tall x 12'-4" wide, and 3'-0" deep...It is a huge sail.
I pulled out my old calcs and I figured a lot bigger pipe than 18"...
This guy is a typical salesman. He thinks the world revolves around him...
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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Sometimes the customer with that kind of mentality can never be converted to common decency, and will always leave you in anguish after every contact... I know I've had my share before I learnt to see them coming...and you won't win with them...!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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