posted
Well it was bound to happen sooner or later. I usually try to prevent this by having a contract, arrange prepayment of 50% and receive the balance upon delivery. I need some advice on what to do, I will give the story as objective as possible. This client contacted me early last fall, He liked my work and wanted me to do a sign for him. He wanted a sandblasted sign for his business that was to be soon zoned commercial.
The client lives 2 hours away and the job was going to be either a monument or a post&panel.
He gave me a deposit on 11/23 of $2,000 (50% of total) signed a acceptance of project proposal stating amounts of $4,000 total for a Post & Panel Double sided sign 1.5" HDU sandblasted with 3/4" MDO infrastructure, metal hanging rods and 2 hanging 8" x 48" signs, plus 6"x6" posts and caps. Okay, well the zone change took some time, but I did the designs for the sign permit and got it approved, paid only for permit processing. By mid December the zone change was approved to commercial zone. He had a mason complete the posts and he would provide the caps. When we talked on the phone he distinctly said, "I am not in a hurry." Now we went back and forth on minor design changes and also some delay on the art for the logo for the hanging sign. By mid January I had the final sign design approved by client and the logo for the hanging sign done. He called me on Feb 8th, upset saying "what is the problem?" The sign was currently getting ready for sandblasting and the infrastructure was done. "I thought you said you weren't in a hurry" he meant for the sign to be installed, he expected the sign to be done already. I told him I would move it to the top of the list and be up next week to install it. My helper and I drove up on the 15th, installed the sign in 4 hours. He was very pleased with the sign, he thought the phone number might be too small, but since it was vinyl lettering I could easily replace it, but he was satisfied with the phone number after walking down the street to view it. He also mentioned me doing some more signs for his partner who owns a marine business. I gave him the invoice, he said his account was out with a broken hip and wouldn't be back until next week. I email him next week requesting payment for the balance, he emails back stating that he feels he has paid enough for the sign because of the delay and the unreadability of the phone number (3.2" on a two way city street) He asks me to provide a break down on what I provided. I did so: 1)2-30" x 60" HDU sandblasted signs @ $2500 2)Infra Structure MDO Framing $275 3)Lusterboard Signs 8" x 48" $150 4)Posts, caps, minus <$300> 5)Sign permit & drawings $250 6)Installation $350 7)6hrs Design & meeting $250
Total $3,775.00 I threw in Light transformer/lights and installation of lights because I thought it would make up for the delay.
I admitted to him that I could have done the sign with a quicker turnaround, but now, in looking at past emails, approvals for design weren't complete until mid January.
So: First he stated he was completely happy with the sign 2- Then he states he thinks 50% is good enough because of delay and phone number 3- I sent him a discount for delay (asking only $960 balance) and said I would remedy the phone number. 4 - He still refuses to pay 5- Emails today said he will pay $600
My options? Take the sign down Have my attorney (also a relative) send him a letter asking for full $1,775.00 Take the $600
Let me know your point of view.
-------------------- Jeff Wisdom SignWorks info@oregonsignworks.com Posts: 450 | From: Oregon | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Jeff - your 1st paragraph answered your question - he gave ya $2,000 down -signed a contract for balance on delivery didn't he? I caint tell ya whut to do but if I were in your situation I would demand payment within 30 days - I wouldn't mess around with an attorney (money outa your pocket; not to mention the hassle) if not received I would appear in his office one sunny morning - then we are both going to the bank or I leave with a check peacefully. . . .'nuff said.....
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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..damn... that is your golden opportunity... do you have that in writing? ..that he would like that changed?
take that sucker down!! what time is it? is it dark? DO IT NOW!!!!
Do it for all the sign guys who ever got screwed.. This bozo is so out of line, & de-installing a sign is often grounds for legal action against you... but, you basically have an angle to CYA
...remove that sucker tonight!! I know I would!
Fix the number, demand payment in full, PLUS he can pick it up & install it himself, or pay extra for jerking you around.
[ March 07, 2006, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
You said you have everything in writing...correct?
Send him a certified letter with final invoice due within 2 weeks or whatever.
Wait..if no response, small claims court.
People get shaken up when you call their bluff and actually move forward with legal action. I would be willing to bet you would see your money rather quickly if you presented him with legal paperwork.
To really put the icing on the cake...have the Sheriff deliver the paperwork to him in person, that'll make his day!!
I assume you do have photos of the sign after installation?
I would not take it down, your lowering yourself to his level, and depending on the local laws, you might find yourself in more trouble that it's worth. But...if it's taken down to fix the phone number and hold it hostage, that might be another story
-------------------- Mike Berry New England Posts: 534 | From: New England | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Call the Sheriff in his area first, 4 hours roundtrip drive is too much time to waste just to play Slap-n-Tickle games.
Maybe in the future demand to see the final payment *before* you install. If they can't produce a check on the spot and in full, you turn around and go home with their sign. That will put an end to that game.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Hiya Jeff, Go and reposess the sign to "fix" the phone number. And when you get it back to the shop, write up a seperate contract to do just that, for an additional charge. After speaking with an attorney, I was told that the only way you can not reclaim your sign, and it's your sign until its paid for, is if the client calls the police and accuses you of tresspassing. She added that the police really don't want to get involved with a civil matter like this. So, it's not likely going to be a priority for them, which will give you the time you need to get your sign and move on. Just to be safe, talk to your attorney relative and listen to what he has to say.
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Well, it sounds like you both didn't have a solid timeline of when the sign was to be installed. He thought one thing and you another. But that happens all the time. Fact is - you have a signed contract for the full amount. You should have never provided a discount for the delay; maybe offered to change the phone number at your cost of travel or something. Since you have the contract, I would step into his office after you fix the number, with the contract, and demand to be paid...that is, if you have a payment upon completion terms written right on the contract. Sounds like you did, so go get it! If he balks, then start making statements about having to talk to your lawyer about breach of contract and hating to have him (the client) spend so much time and money on court fees.
Rick
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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the contract is signed, take him out! hes antoher prick in the daily grind that wants to get out of paying and as far as "his buddy needs a sign" that probaly a bs line to pleae you, and if it is true i would not do him or his buddy. sue him and let this bastard go. i would not waste anymore time on the phone or emailing or nothing with this idiot
its weird how you think only the "idiots" in your local area act like this and come to find out they are all over.same scenario....they are smiling at the beginning of a job, frowning towards the middle and ****ed off at the install....UNBELEIVABLE!
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I have been told that in our area, you can't take a sign back unless its for repairs. So my installer says that he has gone and taken signs down and brought back to his shop for repairs until the sign is paid for. This sounds like a perfect scenario for that.
I am going thru the same thing right now. I did 1 job (had signed invoice stating price and terms). they paid right away. They also faxed me 6 or 7 other jobs, 30 miles away that they needed doing. Since they paid in full before the job was done on the first one, I trusted them. Wrong.
I did all the jobs, got all them installed but one. I did panels for a sign cabinet that they had me measure but later turned out they didn't have permission to use them. I have battled with them to get my $3000 right away. Theyw anted to pay me in 30 days...like all the other contractors they do work with.
I have gotten all the jobs paid for but the last. They told me that because they couldn't use the panel, that they weren't going to pay me. Talk about getting my dander up. I've gone to the courthouse and got paperwork but haven't filed it yet.
I am with everyone else on making him pay the full amount. Just tell him "that since he didn't accept your offer of $900, that the offer no longer stands and that you will see him in court." Print out all your emails before you lose them and put them in his folder. I once took someone to court and showed the judge all my faxes, the last one was signed, and the judge saw them as contracts and sided with me.
I have since started printing out my fax logs once a week and saving them. That way if someone agrues with me, I could show a judge everytime that I faxed that customers number. I hope that I don't have to revert to this but just in case...
I don't see that any of this is your fault since he didn't approve design until Jan. Don't be a weenie and back down. You'll start finding yourself in this case more and more and giving up more each time until you are out of business.
[ March 07, 2006, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Certified letter, final demand for payment "as per signed contract", payment must be received within 10 days.
10 days later (ok, make it 12 just to be safe on the mailing thing) go to your friendly neighborhood courthouse or district magistrate and file it. Include filing fees & lost time for collection pursuits.
(I hate when I hit the button before I'm done typing) He ordered a sign, he signed a contract, he approved the design, he got exactly what he ordered and approved. No way in hell should there be any kind of discount. In fact, I'd like to add a PITA fee for his dragging everything out as long as he did.
posted
GO TAKE THE DAMN SIGN DOWN. . ..for repair on phone number of course. . . .DEMAND PAYMENT BEFORE REINSTALL. . .but only AFTER HE WAITS A COUPLE OF WEEKS!
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
MAn this is ripe for small claims court. I personally know first hand that judges HATE it when someone rips off the working man. I almost never saw a judge NOT award full payment with costs. The only one I remember is when the dude didn't complete the job and what completed was was sloppy work.
All the judge will see is a photo of work completed. His next words will be pay up. An accepted work order is all it will take. Never mind all those change requests. It don't matter. Change requests are always charged extra.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I added some lettering to a window sign for a doctor whose main office is about 75 miles from here. I had already done the main window, and had no problem getting paid. This time, its been sixty days now with no payment. I sent a certified letter yesterday, with a late fee added to the bill, and told them if it wasnt paid by friday, I would take further action. This isnt a large amount, but Ill slap their butts in court monday if I dont hear from them. Do what it takes to get paid Jeff. You did the work, the price was agreed on, now the guy wants to get by with not paying the balance. Absolutely dirty is what it is. You might slap him real hard after he pays you to, just for good measure.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Well, it sounds like everyone pretty much said it but I'll add my 2 cents anyway.
Regardless of whether you delayed (or not) prior to installation, this customer is simply looking for reasons to delay payment, reduce payment, not pay, or any combination of the three.
Don't fool around with this customer. There is no give and take on his part.Insist on your money or take him to small claims.
-------------------- Denis de Leon Creative Signcrafters 125 Railroad Avenue, suite 4 Hightstown, NJ 08520 Posts: 128 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Jeff, keep us posted on what happens. If you do the court thing, my experience is he still won't pay. Then what. . . . take it down tonight! Hold it for ransom. Soon as you cowared down and lowered your price, he took control.
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I vote for take it down. At least that way the guy has paid $2000 and has no sign. No way he can go somewhere else get a replacement sign and come out ahead. He will always be $2000 in the hole. Most likely he will start to negotiate or cough up the cash once the sign is gone. This is assuming that he is not on the verge of bankruptcy in which case having a sign or not really won't matter to him and he may just eat the $2000.
I have to agree with John Arnott on this one. Most likely you will get a judgement in your favor in court but that doesn't always get you the money. This is especially true if they guy is on his way to bankruptcy anyway. I've gotten judgements before and never collected a penny.
Good luck and let us know how things turn out.
-------------------- Jim McLain McLain Studios 1203 Main Street Asbury Park, NJ 07712 jlm@mclainstudios.com Posts: 42 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Once a sign is installed, it is his and cannot be removed for non payment!
BUT HE HAS GIVEN YOU THE PERFECT EXCUSE! If anyone asks, you are complying with his request to enlarge the phone number, which requires you to take it back at your shop!
Just do it real early in thew morning, or very late afternoon (when he isn't likely to be there)!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I'm with Si. You do have the perfect excuse. Some people try to get themselves a "bargain" by complaining about something BEFORE they pay. He probably gets lots of freebies this way, from asphalt to landscaping, etc. Love....jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I say DON"T TAKE IT DOWN because not only are you wasting your time and petrol but then he may not want it up again and try to sue you for the deposit he paid. The sign is no good to you anyway. Pursue it quickly to let him know that you will not be playing games any longer. Good luck with this Jeff. I recently successfully got money from a lawyer. He was not going to stand up in a small debts court and make a further fool of himself.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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QUOTE: "He gave me a deposit on 11/23 of $2,000 (50% of total) signed a acceptance of project proposal stating amounts of $4,000 total for a Post & Panel Double sided sign 1.5" HDU sandblasted with 3/4" MDO infrastructure, metal hanging rods and 2 hanging 8" x 48" signs, plus 6"x6" posts and caps."
I'm assuming you upheld your end of this contract, even going so far as to bend over backwards to please him on the phone number.
Do NOT take the sign down.
DO get your money.
It's a called a 'contract', a signed agreement for a REASON.
It's called BUSINESS.
And what a shoddy and poor businessman this guy turned out to be.
Now you must be the consumate business man that you've already shown yourself to be.
Don't make him any more 'deals' or concessions.
Do send him two certified letters within 10 days of each other requesting the original contract price balance.
Do immediately photograph the finished sign to add with this paperwork you present to the judge in court, which of course, you will win and this schmuck will have to pay for court costs also.
It's well worth a little bit of your time to:
~Get your money.
~Make him an example to make him other schmucks think twice next time.
~Get your hard-earned money.
~Teach him proper manners, business ettiquette and RESPECT for the procedure.
~Get your hard-earned, time-&-material-invested money!!
posted
Like Robert Dinero said in The Untouchables movie, "I want him dead, I want his family dead, I want his house burnt down....etc. Ahh, ya better just take him to court instead.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3820 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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I did call my older brother who is also an attorney and he advised me in very similar ways.: Send him a certified letter demanding payment in full $2,000. Here is a copy of what I sent.
"I am demanding full payment of $2,000.00 in accordance with the sign proposal signed by you on November 23, 2005.
I withdraw all previous offers of reduced payments with no reduction in price.
All artwork and design was produced per clients approval and all work was performed as specified in the proposal with the exception that client-owner chose to provide posts and caps at his cost. In compensation for posts and caps Oregon Signworks provided lights, transformer and lighting installation at substantial equal value.
No completion date was specified in the contract. Sign delay was due in part to clients art changes and approvals given on January 24th 2006 via email from client for decision on Woodbury hanging sign and January 27th, 2006 via email from client for decision on final sign layout including size and placement of phone number. Production was then finalized within 3 weeks after receiving final art approvals and decisions from client.
Full payment is due within 10 days from the date of this notice. If payment is not received within that time I will take legal action."
It seems he had this planned all along, I was a company slightly out of the area and I think he just wanted a "steal" on a sign. Thank God I had a signed contract. I do think I might update my contract to read full payment upon delivery from now on and make sure I call ahead for the check to be ready.
I don't want to waste my time to drive & take down the sign at 5 hours, its not worth it. He'll pay, I have it in writing and a good solid case from emails.
Thank you everyone, I'll let you know what happens.
-------------------- Jeff Wisdom SignWorks info@oregonsignworks.com Posts: 450 | From: Oregon | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Jeff, that is an excellent, concise letter. I have a brother who is both an attorney and a magistrate; he has written letters like that for me. And my dad, who was also a magistrate, always said you get more results with a letter. I think you did the right thing. Still think the guy was looking for a freebie, too. Good luck! love....jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Just remember COD does not mean COI. Delivery is delivery not installation.
I am going through this myself for the last time. I will never install a sign before getting paid again.
From now on the customer will know in advance that the final payment will be due on delivery and the sign will not be installed before payment is paid.
If the customer is not there or the "accountant" is not around the sign will go back and the customer will pay for a second delivery.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just remember COD does not mean COI. Delivery is delivery not installation.
I am going through this myself for the last time. I will never install a sign before getting paid again.
From now on the customer will know in advance that the final payment will be due on delivery and the sign will not be installed before payment is paid.
If the customer is not there or the "accountant" is not around the sign will go back and the customer will pay for a second delivery.
Installing signs brings up another scenario again. I refuse to give a quote on installations as it can be either very straight forward or a nightmare. Once you start digging a hole in the ground anything can happen. You may be able to dig a straight hole or you could hit rock that could be the size of your fist or the size of a small car?? Maybe I should be starting a new thread with this on. BTW Jeff, that is a well designed letter and should certainly do the trick. Please keep us informed of the outcome.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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Around here, Murphy's Law kicks-in more than a mad mule . . .
My hands and I are very familiar with particular areas and types of ground around my county/state, although, we've had the occasional surprise when digging that caused us to have to move over a few inches or somethin'.
We also utilize the 'CALL-BEFORE-YOU-DIG' 800-number when needed. I don't know if you have it 'under there' . . .
This is where you call and get a confirmation # and they go mark all utilities prior to any nearby installs. Now, the confirmation/marking utilites won't reimburse you for wasted time if you hit a utility during a dig, but it insures that you will not have to pay for the repair.
We've only ever hit one waterline that allegedly 'was''nt there' and did'nt break it. We just moved over.
There's only been a coupl'a times when we hit concrete, buried brick, or asphalt, or something and when I showed this directly to the customer, we easily discussed all the options which in all cases each customer completely understood and was willing to pay for extra equipment/time.
In the end, it seems open communication, fairness and honesty wins out between both parties.
What is worse than installation surprises??
The 'surprise' I get seeing one of my signs BADLY installed by the customer.
I think we leave customers out of the decision making a lot which can cause a lot of missed communication, and makes them feel nervous...edgy and unsure. In any given situation where questions can come up and it involves MY bottom line income and THEIR expense, I try to involve my customers in what's happening with their sign, where I am, and what, & why I'm doing somethin', or need to do some particular thing.
In other words, if I have a bad dig, I won't immediately go rent equipment, or spend more time to go ahead and install the sign, THEN tell the customer "We had to do all this so it's costing you extra because..."
I will only go forward when I get the customer sees with their own eyes WHY they are about to give me more money, and feel they have the choice to decide what they wanna do.
I'm just sayin' this builds trust, and good PR, and good RB, is all.
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