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I am up against the dreaded big trans vinyl again and I don't want to suffer like I usually do. A couple of times I've noticed people seem to be handcutting right on the plastic substrate. How do people put on 3x16, 2x14 or so. The bubbles and wrinkles eventually do go away(mostly), but it's got to be one of the toughest tasks going. Please help, and I'm sure I'll wind up being a resident for the rest of my life. Thanks in advance
-------------------- Steve Vigeant Berkeley Signs Oakland, CA. Posts: 55 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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LArge sheets would go much easier with a flood of rapid tac.. Rapdi tac is so cheap compared to a ruined trans panel. Not a sprints,, but a flood of it. Float the material into place and squeegeee down.
OR, you could cut the parts one at a time and apply them like that..
I have never cut directly on the substrate..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Hiya Steve, Unless you have a laminator, I have to agree with Curtis. I would also apply transfer tape or mask to the vinyl to make it easier to handle while you apply it. I use a lot of rapid tac in my production process, but rarely for applying graphics. However, this would be the one of the few times that I would definitely use it.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I' ve done tons of these Steve, here's a step by step. Lets say a 3x16 blue background wih white text...
1- You have a 3x16 white plexi (or flexface) cut to size, clean and in a dust free environment.
2- You'll need a piece of trans vinyl a little oversize, lets say 4x17. To do the perfect job that your customer deserves, you'll need 3 sets of arms(preferably human), a water(soapmix) spray bottle (I like the bid ones like what you use to spray bugs on trees) and a large 24" or so silkscreen squeege with a clean edge. Don't even think of using transfer tape or else don't bother reading the rest...
3- Flip the vinyl face down on the plexi and have someone remove the backing slowly as an other one sprays water on the adhesive at the same time (it will cut the static that could attract dust particules).
4- Once the backing is all off and the sticky side is all sprayed, you have one guy at each end of the vinyl patch to lift and flip it and HOLD it in the air above the plexi.
5- Spray more water on the plexi and on the good side of the vinyl (yes that's a lot of water...)
6- Let the vinyl patch ark in the middle (lined up) untill it touches in the center on 5 or 6 feet.
7- Using the large squeege, start chasing the water out from the middle out, and work your way towards one end as that person slowly lowers his end to feed you vinyl. It is important that the other persons holds his end up untill you can make it to that side ( feel free to add water when ever )
8- Done properly you have full coverage without a single wrinkle. Trim the edge with a blade along the side of the plexi and you're ready for graphics.
9- If you own a CNC table with a blade attachment the rest is simple, if not try this: just plot a paper pattern of the text you need, stick it on with spray adhesive and cut through both paper and vinyl right on the plexi. Clean extra spray with varsol and you're done.
If there's a simpler or quicker way to do this, let me know... don't hesitate to call me for more info.
posted
My husband Garry and I do lots of these too. Lots and lots of applicator fluid. I usually use a big squeege like window washer do. Garry just uses small ones. Garry always pre-masks...I don't always. It usually depends on how thin the translucent is. Some is really thick, others are thin like skin and wrinkle much easier
Until recently, I only had a 24" plotter. When I did my layout, I made usre that the copy had a drop shadow with an outline around any of the copy. After I had the vinyl (that was 36", 48, or 60"), I would apply the outline / drop shadow and then hand cut the inside of the letters out and then peel them out. It was time consuming but after awhile I got pretty fast at it.
If you get a few wrinkles, don't fret them. Illuminated signs, when on the ground, are not usually viewed real close. Just rmemeber the difference between a good sign and a bad one, is 10 feet.
ps. I forgot to add that if you get wrinkles, don't keep going over and over to get them out. Some will come out with a little heat. Lots of them, if not stuck down super tight, will come out as the vinyl shrinks up. We've done signs that would have little wrinkles here and there and then left them overnight and when we came in inthe morning, many were gone.
[ March 02, 2006, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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A dissent - I do alot of these too - just did 16'x3' Black Background - Sky Blue text - masked & applied dry - (only do wet in the rain when I have to) 24" plotter here also - just work in sections you can handle by yourself - biggest pieces I usually apply are less than 10'x24" - using the right squeegee makes a big difference - try the 3M Powergrip CPA-1 - Feller's & Tubelite carry 'em - once you use these you'll never use a small, hard, plastic squeegee again - except for scrapin off old vynul. . . .
[ March 03, 2006, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: Carl Wood ]
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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I had one that had a large elliptical cutout in the middle. Experience has told me that large circles and cutouts cause wrinkles around the edges of same unless they are held very taut and done with care.
We've tried dry and wet and got our best results running it through the laminator. It was a nice clean laydown - looked great!
This only works if your laminator is wide enough. Otherwise, design and or charge accordingly. If you're overlaying as I was then you really should be charging extra. The risk is of error is higher. Now there's another topic for the BB???
regards, denis
-------------------- Denis de Leon Creative Signcrafters 125 Railroad Avenue, suite 4 Hightstown, NJ 08520 Posts: 128 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jul 2005
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Rene - just fully read yer post - I do 'em that size masked - & dry - quick & easy - do 'em alone aint got time to fool wid no helpers - don't need 'em !!!
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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Can't use a laminator with a pan face.. For smaller letters or sheets ( smaller than 1.5 sq ft.),, Or with lengths of less than 8" high by several feet long.. dry with transfer tape is fine.
For LARGE sheets of trans... Ain't got time to hunt up 3 extra human beings. I do em by my self. High frade trans material is aggressive and super thin. I applaud those who can place them dry and have no wrinkles. But for me and the person who started this thread ( who seems to have only an occasional large job) wet is best with some transfer tape.. I will not risk losing $120 worth of material just to be able to say I run them dry or to save $4 bux in transfer tape.
Especially if the job is reverse cut or the pieces are more than 2 feet square. The inner parts of the letters are just to flopppy to let them fly into the wind.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Translucent should usually be applied wet, at least according to an old 3M technical bulletin I have. It says you will get better light dispersion that way (does that just mean less chance of wrinkles)? However, if someone can apply a reversed out 3'x16' dry without wrinkles or bubbles, you will definitely save some drying time. I think if I could watch someone do this, I would buy them dinner for sure.
I have helped apply reversed out translucent to Cooley fabric that was over 100' long. This can not be done dry. It can not even be done with Rapid Tac. You need a very long window, as much as an hour, for squeegee work (actually, we used rollers, quicker). It is also very difficult to do overlays of this size without transfer tape. When a piece that long is stretched it needs the additional strength of the paper. And we always used four people, minimum, on a lay this big.
We did a number of Pilot truck stop awnings that were just over 110' feet long, a reversed out logo at each end, and a six-inch stripe running the entire length. This client specified that there be no seams at all! These were the hardest, but the crew I worked with was awesome.
Incidentally, our translucent of choice was Neschen. It was far more forgiving than 3M. It stretched easier without tearing, when we needed it to, and lost bubbles beautifully.
Once we overlaid white Cooley with a custom color of 48-inch vinyl. The boss said the roll cost $3000. "No room for a screw-up," he said. No pressure there. But it was laid quickly and carefully...and soaking wet.
Everything I do now is dry, though. I have a desk job. Not near as much fun.
Brad in Kansas City
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Good job Brad - forget the pressure - in the words of the golfer John Daly - "Grip it & Rip it" I think I've seen those awnings - are the colors black & Red on Yellow? (or some combination; I'm thinkin I seen 'em in Okla. or Florida )- - - -West Memphis, Arkansas has one a Pilot Truck Stop as well. . . .
[ March 08, 2006, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Carl Wood ]
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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Yes, Carl, those are the ones. We may have done the one in West Memphis.
Your mention of the name Memphis brings back memories of The Public Eye on, I think, Kuper street in Memphis. I so miss southern barbecue. I did a few jobs in that area when I lived in Arkansas.
Brad in Kansas City
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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do it just like Rene Giroux, just a couple points, to eliminate one of the needed helpers we attach a metal straight edge to the end that the helper is holding, allows only one helper to hold large sheet, I wrap my extra large squeegee (it's probably 18" in paper towels so it "flies" right over the vinyl and leaves no marks, we also do this with no transfer tape and it has NOTHING to do with cost, it just results in no bubbles for me, it seems with transfer tape it gives the vinyl to much structure and not enough flex to work all of the fluid out, seems to make pockets with the tape and I find myself popping giant blisters of fluid or skooting them to the end hoping it doesn;t cause a wrinkle bcause you've already removed most of the fluid. and make sure you use a garden sprayer with the fluid of your choice you'll go nucking futs squeezing the trigger that much. it really is NO big deal once you do a couple and trust your ability
Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dang you guys are good. The job fell through though. Doh! but now I'll sure be ready for 'em next time. I sure feel better about my past agony. Next I'll want to set you all lose on Signgold apps. So most people do cut out the image first on the huge stuff? Is there a way to print out a thread for future ref if it contains the wisdom of the ages?
-------------------- Steve Vigeant Berkeley Signs Oakland, CA. Posts: 55 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Brad - I remember the Public Eye very well - great BBQ joint - it was on S. Cooper - been gone 'bout 8 yrs. - - it's a parking lot now - just so happens one of my signs is on the spot now - advertising for a ground Lease/Build to suit for one of my clients - that area (Overton Square) was popular for many years, went downhill, now it's being re-vitalized & is coming back. . .
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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