posted
I posted part of this in another thread as to why I was having a bad day. Has this ever happened to anyone else? I find it hard to believe I am at fault.
Got a letter saying we're being sued. The letter came from the insurance company representing one of my longtime clients. Seems the museum is getting sued and their insurance company wants to pass the buck.
We've been making these free standing sculpture markers for a local art museum for many years. Apparently a little girl was running around the scuplture garden with her mom. The girl ran into one of the markers and fell and cut her leg on the plaque. Now the museum's insurance company concluded that it's our fault because the marker was sharp enough to get cut on. The face was .080 alum with radius corners mounted on a 2" square tube on a 45 degree angle. We never installed the signs and only built them according to the museum curators specs. They placed them in the garden. To make it worse the mother says the girl was a very talented ballerina (at 8 years old) Apparently she'll never make it to the big time.
I feel bad for the girl but where is the mom's responsibility in all of this. The other irony here is that this piece of sculpture was a double ended canon that worked as a see saw and the museum was afraid of getting sued by someone falling off the see saw. Never figured on getting sued because someone ran into the sign.
So now what, do I have customers sign disclaimers that they are going to use the sign that they designed and installed in a safe manner? This is my first lawsuit in 30 years. I guess it was time.
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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My advice is to talk to your lawyer and don't discuss any details of the matter in a public forum. I just did a search on your name and a number of your posts on this forum came up. If I can do it so can their lawyers and insurance company...and they do! All matters discussed here are in the public domain and anyone can track your posts (as long as you're using your real name). So unless you folks are okay with your comments being copied and pasted and used by others, I would be very careful in this regard. All that aside, general discussions on the topic are no problem...just be carefull if you use details or decide to say something slanderous. I hope you have a positive outcome.
posted
No specs, we made the first one probably 10 years ago . And at that time he just showed us what he wanted, we made one and he said it was fine. After doing the for 10 years this is what were up against. That particular sign was made in 2003.
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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I'm sorry but I have an incredible urge to slap that girls mother
disclaimer: The term "slap" is not used in any aggressive way or meant to imply an aggression or physical harm to said moron. Any comments or inquiries can be forwaded to my attornies, Dewey Screwem & Howe
[ February 24, 2006, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: We never installed the signs and only built them according to the museum curators specs. They placed them in the garden.
There ya go. If you didn't design them and didn't install them. All good (as long as you have original paperwork showing that they designed) This is not like a McDonalds scalding coffee suit. All you did was build to their specks. If you have a lawyer, give it to him and it will go away.
quote: So now what, do I have customers sign disclaimers that they are going to use the sign that they designed and installed in a safe manner?
Refer to above
They don't have a leg to stand on. Let your lawyer handle it and get back to work.
-------------------- Snow's Sign Works 865-908-0076 snowman@planetc.com www.snowsigns.com
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... Posts: 1640 | From: Sevierville, TN | Registered: Jul 2005
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Law suits. The biggest random lottery in the USA. When you first hear about it as a defendant it makes you feel like CRAP.. After you go thru one,, and win you will feel great.
Sounds like a shake down to me. Let me talk about how it goes down.
Its all just a money game and the greedy parents only see money. They should be FLOGGED..
The first time is the worst time. ITs all a mind game. Once you realize that,, all the negatives will fade away. They will not take away your house, they will not take away your life. People have lost limbs in bad accidents and only get 50 grand. My humble opinion is that a littel ol' cut will get them med bills and maybe a few thousand to get out of every ones life. If that much. And most likely the museum 's ins co will pay it..
99% it will never ever make a court room. The balerina part is just a tool they are trying to use as a justification for the lawsuit. It won't fly at all. Unless this littel girl has had years of training and a little ol scar means nothing. If they try to use this ploy the dance school tacher will be roped into a deposition and that will not go well.. They may try the emotional distress bull crap. OR another bullcrap they will try the "innocent little girl" was traumatized beyond all reason. More crap..
You cannot predict the future so you cannot get paid on the future..
They say all kinds of things to make you feel bad. Negligent, bad design, improper materials etc. The whole idea is to make you so filled with anxiety that you simply feel stressed out so much that you just give in and pay it. This is the reaction 99% of the people feel. OR, you can be so ****ed off that you will die before you pay even one penny..
Then, all person involved will circle the wagons. You will feel left out in the cold with your pants down. Thats another fact of life about lawsuits. Nothing to stress over. You could lose a friend or two so do not discuss it with any one.
One day you will get a request for information. Its called discovery. Do not give anything more than they ask for. And they will likely ask about your background to see if you are a qualfied metal worker.. (more bull****) And especially do not give a customer list of any kind. If they ask for one make sure your attorny files an objection and hold it back. You do not want them fishing for witnesses.
Then, if you hear one word about the mother bragging about suing you then you have her @ss for possible liable attacks on your company. Her atty should tell her to keep her mouth shut. But usually yhe loosers cannot and talk to every one. You may hear about people you know being asked about your business.
If it gets that far... You will give a deposition. That will clear up the facts. If all you did was supply an order then most likely they will simply go away,, drop you from the claim.. So, get all your info in order and do not make up anything. A good interogator will pull out the lies like you never beleive. Ive seen it happen a couple of times. First time I personally witnessed lies in a deposition I almost fell over.. The liar never knew it happened until it was over.
If it gets any farther the judge will make a decision as to whether you belong to this suit.
Your best answer are: yes,, no;; i don't know and i don't recall.. If you open your life they will simply track every word you say and try to twist you into saying something stupid,, Stick to the above answers and they cannot trap you.
In the end. When its all over. You will be better armed against this crap. If someone calls you again about suing you.. you will be in a great position because they can never again bufolo you..
In fact.. One business I operated had accounts recievable. A couple of hundred of them a year. Sometimes a customer would call trying to get out of paying. A few would threaten with an atty and a lawsuit if my company kept on with collecting the debt. This little intimidation attempt would immediatly find themselves into the collection agency arena. Thats how much fear I had of a lawsuit. In other words. I dared them to do it.
All this is just an opinion from an untrained observer. So this is not legal guidance in any way. (I say this just in case the moron reads this )..
Good luck and do not worry. It will not ruin your life.. It will not leave you without insurance. And best of all.. They (complainent) will suffer much more than you could ever know. They will lose friends over it. People they knew for years will avoid them. I promise you the family will soon find themselves being invited less to social events..
And then,, maybe,, just maybe,, you will later read the news about the mother or father in some kind of legal trouble. Ive seen it happen...
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Seems to me the minute it was installed on the museums property, by them, it became their property which they are liable for. Not you. The mother takes some of this blame too, for not watching her child closer. But, the insurance company, who by the way are lower on my scale than lawyers, decides they are gonna place the blame on you, the working stiff, and let you deal with it. Talk to a lawyer and he'll take care of it. This is ridiculous.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Having a daughter in ballet myself, it's hard to imagine an injury from a cut that could actually hinder a future career in ballet unless there was really major muscle damage. There are few injuries that are worse than the injuries ballet imposes itself. Ballet dancers usually are dancing with some type of major pain (my daughter's is hip related.) Also, probably less than 5% of the girls taking ballet go on to pursue it as a career and even less actually make it. Don't quote me on the numbers but I'm sure I'm near the range. I don't offer this information as any legal advise obviously, just to show that it's highly unlikely that the incident ruined anyone's ballet career. Though I'm sure it was pretty traumatic for the girl.
It sounds like a frivolous law suit to me. You can't blame the product for someone's misuse or carelessness.
-------------------- Tracie Johnson Signovations Ventura, California Posts: 444 | From: Ventura, California | Registered: Nov 2005
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The museum told the mother to take the girl to the hospital and to give them the bill. The museum so far has paid for her doctors bill which from what I can gather was some stitches to her leg. It's the museum's insurance company who says that their investigators found that the sign was the cause of the injury , and that since we made the sign we should pay all damages. They told us to forward the letter from them to our insurance company. I'm not even going to tell them who our insurance company is unless we get a letter from the court telling us to do that. Until then they can kiss my ***. Can you tell I'm still a little mad?
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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good move.. I wouldn't beleive a word they said. Its called transference of association or some term like that. If you accept responsibility or even pay anything out of the goodness of your heart.. Then you are at fault.. ITs their sign, they installed it, they approved it, they displayed it, they allowed teh kids to get access to it. You used resonable due course to make it. You didnt allow sharpen any edges on it.. .80 aluminum is pretty thinck. The kid must have really rammed it..
Then that makes the parent responsible too. of course this is just an opinion..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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That's bunk. You made the sign. Big deal. You didn't install it. How can you be responsible for someone else's actions? I find it both extremely ironic and totally assinine that they're trying to make you responsible for the sign purchaser's actions, yet the mother obviously wasn't responsible enough to control her own kid.
quote:Originally posted by Louie Pascuzzi: It's the museum's insurance company who says that their investigators found that the sign was the cause of the injury , and that since we made the sign we should pay all damages.
They've been sniffing something too long. That's like suing Chevy cause a drunk got behind the wheel of his pickup & took out a schoolbus. Or it's Smith & Wesson's fault that someone shoots a convenience store clerk with a stolen gun. WTF?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I always heard that it's the installer's responsibility, this isn't legal advice, just an attempt to console the sign guy caught up in a really stupid situation. It's just the way people are, I've caught people red handed in a crime or some sheister (sp?) deal, and they STILL deny it, try to pass the blame on to someone else.
It's another indicator of the decline around us, but I might as well talk to the wall.
Dig up reciepts, might look even better if they picked up the signs at your place.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Lou, The insurance companies will tell you anything to pass the buck. They are not the judge or the courts so don't let them intimidate you, as they're just challenging you. It's not over till the opera lady sings, you know.
I do have quite a bit of experience with insurance companies and have worked with many of them, also helped others. I'm not an expert, but Duncan has a very good point of keeping this confidential. Emailing in private will help you from this point forward. Just a suggestion.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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Louie, best two pieces of advice you've received here shouldn't be ignored, the letter itself tells you, someone is serious enough to bring it into the forefront...retain legal counsel!!! And cease talking about it here and any other public forum you might use...it's true about public domain and it'd sure not do you a bit of good, being in your position, to also end up paying because some legal beagle found something to win with in here, salt on wound, not enjoyable at all... Your position is relatively solid, but as others have said, we're painters, not lawyers. To win, as it sounds like you should, it takes a knowledge of the law, pony up, hire a barrister and do as he/she says...good luck. Having no choice as to persue it, I'd look into a healthy countersuit...they started it!!!
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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Hiya Lou, Send a copy of the notice to your insurance agent and be prepared for an interesting ride. However, if you have good insurance, don't sweat it. Chances are that the insurance company will want to settle out of court. But, you're the one who's going to get stuck with increased premiums. So, get yourself a good attorney and be prepared for the worse. And while you're meeting with the attorney, you might as well have him draw up a document stating that "Economy Signs can not be held responsible for use or mis-use of products and services that you do not install" or something to that effect. I'm not an attorney, so don't quote me The last company I worked for was sued for reasons that I choose not to disclose. It ended up being cheaper to settle the suit than it was to fight it. Ya the system sucks in situations like these. And until you hold lawyers accountable for their frivilous suits, this things are gonna happen.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks everyone for your advice and concern. I'm going to see my lawyer monday morning and let him handle it. It sucks to even have to get involved with something like this. Looks like the museum's invoices will be a little higher from now on to cover my legal costs.
Now I'm going to go enjoy my weekend.
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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For the past 25 years I have also carried Product Liability Insurance. It is for things just like this.
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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Product liability insurance! Now that's something that was never mentioned in my business insurance. And, even with good lawyers, (who can learn also), they may not think of it or add it in the clauses. The insurance company may not want to include either unless you pay a higher premium. It's worth you mentioning it to them, as I find folks need to have their back and be knowledgeable to make sure the insurance and attorneys do it right. With that said, I think that advice about product liability insurance taught me something very, very valuable!
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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This isn't going anywhere. Your attorney, if he's not too greedy, will laugh.
My advice is to use your creative eneryg, which you've used too much of on this issue, tword what you do best. Make signs.
Joe
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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I will be turning this over to my insurance company along with giving a copy of the letter to my lawyer. We have product liability, general liability and completed operations insurance. We also carry a rather large umbrella on top of everything. I just hate to think that the insurance might pay out and than raise our rates. Hopefully they will be too smart for that.
Times like this are why I'd rather letter trucks and race cars.
posted
If they are a grade A they will usually fight a shake down claim. If they are a grade B then they may just pay some just to make them go away...
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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The insurance company will negotiate a deal, the mother will (probably)be happy knowing her daughter's college tuition is paid, and she'll be moving to a nicer neighborhood (this is my personal opinion and in no way intimates the afflicted parties' thought process, nor is intended to cast the afflicted party in the roll of gold-digger, suing her way to a materialistically better lifestyle.)
These type of no-personal-responsibility people sicken me. Knowing her propensity to sue, would you chance giving her the Hiemlich maneuver if she was choking on Chicken McNugget at McDonald's or simply walk away?
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Lou, I don't have any advice, except to just say sorry you have to go through this. I feel like the bottom falls out from a simple vinyl failure that's fixable. I'd probably have to be admitted if someone threatened to sue me!
posted
Sorry that this has happened. Just goes to show how sad the world is getting, and I believe it will only get worse.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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Lou, There are many surprise situations when we think we are doing our very best;
I figure that you brought your post here not only to get advice but also to save some of us from the same situation too; is you bringing the post and that many of us are all thankful to you now for making us more aware; you made it possible for others to learn from this.
You appear as extremely professional and have covered all the bases of your business and insurance. Good luck, as it will probably be a private outcome, and thanks for sharing.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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If no one in the three years that the sign was up suggested that it was unsafe how can this be an issue now. So this unsuppervised little girl smashes herself against an object that was not moving in a place that is definitely not designed for running. Then the museums insurance company is looking for a way out make sure that you tell your insurance company that you will not be the scapgoat.
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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hey pascuzzi, wheres cousin vinny? iam sure he can fixa-dis good.....hehehehehhe
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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The legal system is sorta like a compost heap, only noisier. What smokes me about this kind of thing is there always seems to be plenty of bottom-feeding scumbag lawyers who will try to turn this kind of case into a new Mercedes (for themselves, I mean.) Pity you live here in New England, especially Connecticut, a place that breeds hysterical whiny yuppies and their obnoxious brats like fruit flies, not to mention the legal eagles that feed on them.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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this sounds like one of those lawsuits where everyone gets sued to see who has the deepest pockets. How bad have things gotten that a girl falling down amount to all this legal stuff?
Remembering back to my days in brooklyn, if I had a penny for every time I got hurt I'd be rich.
-------------------- Denis de Leon Creative Signcrafters 125 Railroad Avenue, suite 4 Hightstown, NJ 08520 Posts: 128 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jul 2005
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