posted
I run into this situation once or twice a year.
It starts off with us designing a logo for a customer and producing a sign, business card, etc.
In most cases we don't charge for logo design.
Later the customer goes to another shop and has them duplicate our work because they can get it cheaper.
My question is, do I own the design?? Are they legally wrong to have someone duplicate my work??
should I state in my workorder I own the copyrights to the design usless they are paid for, and they can not be duplicated without my permission???
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Jerry VanHorn: In most cases we don't charge for logo design.
Why not?
You can easily solve this problem by charging your customer a fair price for the logo and transferring the copyright to them on completion. That is how it should be done in my opinion.
I think it's a cheap trick to use copyright laws to hold a customer hostage with a "free logo", even if it's within the designer's legal right to do so. It takes advantage of the customer's ignorance of copyright law. Unless this is completely explained to the customer up front, I consider it dirty pool.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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My question is, do I own the design?? Are they legally wrong to have someone duplicate my work??
Nope! Not unless it's specifically stated in a signed agreement that you retain ownership of it.
quote: should I state in my workorder I own the copyrights to the design usless they are paid for, and they can not be duplicated without my permission???
Yes.
Would you turn your RAW images over to a customer after a session in the photo studio, so they can make their own prints?
If business owners wouldn't falter on getting artwork fees or enforcing copyrights, customers wouldn't think twice about this stuff.. but NO, business owners are wusses so the ones that do try to maintain some integrity within their industries appear to be the bad guys.
OK I feel a rant coming on so I'm just going to step away from the keyboard...
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I think it's a cheap trick to use copyright laws to hold a customer hostage with a "free logo", even if it's within the designer's legal right to do so. It takes advantage of the customer's ignorance of copyright law. Unless this is completely explained to the customer up front, I consider it dirty pool.
I never felt like I was holding anyone hostage. I feel slighted when someone takes advantage of my generosity. I realize there is nothing I can do in this situation. It just bothers me to no end that this country is getting the WalMart mentality - Expect everything for nothing.
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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This board, in my opinion, has some of the best of the best sign people in the country.
The problem is, as you all know, what we know as right business practice is not standard to our competition. The charging of design in my area is unheard of. I am considered an arogant ass for assuming my designs are worth anything. I have tried to charge for design time. They stand there and say, 'huh, let me get back to you on that." My only other avenue is to add more fine print to my work orders saying I hold all rights to the design.
If they don't want to pay for it up front, maybe I will start to hold them hostage to future use of it. It will be completely explained to the customer from now on.
let me know what you think of my opinion.
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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posted
This topic comes up often. In each instance, lack of communication at the beginning of the transaction has caused problems further on down the road.
If the customer isn't willing to pony up the money for design of the logo, it's perfectly fair to say "We don't charge design fees for logos used strictly in-house, but if you decide to use the logo with an outside vendor, there will be a fee to release the copyright." Stating it up front lets them make a choice.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike Pipes: [QUOTE]Would you turn your RAW images over to a customer after a session in the photo studio, so they can make their own prints?
I do feel there is a significant difference between a photographic portrait and a logo. A logo is used by a company to represent itself. It isn't reasonable to think that a company should ask permission from the designer each time the logo is used - as long as a fair price has been paid for its design. The same would be true for an illustration or photograph used to identify a company. It's the designer's job to state what that price is. If it's $200, then it's $200. If it's $25,000, so much the better. Once the customer has paid the fee, they should be free to use the logo or image as they please.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Not being flippant but when does a layout become a design?
Until computers, laying out was just the first step to writing a sign or vehicle. I (and every other writer, as far as I know) would simply get a call from a truck salesman that there was a lorry or a tractor ready to be written as soon as I could get there. I'd be told what lettering was required make a few choices on layout and style, step up to the vehicle, snap some lines and get on with it, hoping to be finished in time to get home for tea.
Nowadays the average customer seems to expect half a dozen layouts for a Fire Exit sign!
Does it count as a design the moment someone wants to see proof before allowing one to proceed?
-------------------- Arthur Vanson Bucks Signs Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England arthur@buckssigns.co.uk -------------------- Posts: 805 | From: Chesham, Bucks, England | Registered: Mar 2002
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Hiya Jerry, Here's the "Disclaimer" that is on the bottom of all my estimates. I'm not sure if it will legally hold water yet, but I'll find out real soon when I speak to an attorney.
I don't look at it as holding someone hostage, I'm just protecting my work and copyright. So, in one way or another, I'm going to be compensated for my time and talent. If a cheap client doesn't value my time, I would rather not work for them.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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So, Checkers, is your disclaimer for your estimate only, or are you saying that once you sell a logo to a client, they have to get written permission and compensation each time they need to do something?
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Jerry, If you don't respect your time and creations enough to charge a design fee (or at the very minimum include a disclaimer stating it's your artwork and is copyright violation to be used elsewhere), how can you expect customers to respect that?
By not charging & not saying anything about you owning the logo, you've told the customer the artwork is worthless. If it was worth something, it wouldn't be free or the customer would have been informed it wasn't free for the taking.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Hiya Russ, That's why I need an attorney to review it My intent is to, at least, cover my "time and materials" when I develop a design or "logo" for a client. I’m thinking a small fee of $85 for a decent layout and start at $350 for a logo. When the design is approved, I will grant the client a license to use it in any way they choose. The terms of this usage license would spell out something to the effect that I will not charge for the use of my design on any products or services that I provide. However, if the client wants to purchase their signs, using my design, elsewhere or decides to use it in a yellow page ad, they are more than welcome to, but, a separate usage license is required and additional fees are due. I'm open for discussion on this, but I gotta cut it short. I'll try to add more later
Havin fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Some years ago I had a website hosted with an ISP, and as part of their "service" they registered a domain name for me. I paid $50 to have it done. I was ignorant of the process at the time so I didn't suspect anything. Well, when I decided to have someone else host my site, I found the domain name wasn't mine. They had registered it for themselves. I had no power to take it with me. It was perfectly legal for them to do this, but not ethical.
They hoped to keep me as a customer by holding the domain name hostage. Well, I didn't spend another nickel with those folks. I abandoned the domain name and found out how to register domains myself. I have kept this experience in mind when I do work for other people. I like to treat them the way I would expect to be treated.
In the case of a logo, I know the customer is going to expect to use it in numerous ways. What business would tolerate having to call me up each time they wanted to make t-shirts, or hats, or billboards, and beg my permission to let them use the logo? If that happened to me I would scrap the logo and find a different designer as soon as possible. It seems much easier to charge a fair price for the logo in the beginning, rather than worry about whether the customer is shopping elsewhere and possibly violating copyright law.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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I calculated recently that we had billed over $150,000 in logo design sales over the last few years. Last year was over $50k in logos alone. I'd much rather have that money in my pocket, than giving it away (that probably sounds painfully obvious).
I don't care what other people do, and I don't allow other people, companies or others to dictate what I need to do for my own company. They found someone to do it cheaper, or for free - and they have the same background, experience and expertise as us, than by all means - they should go.
Ask how much the image of their company is worth. If they're not willing to pay for a logo, well then there's your answer.
Its all in the presentation, and the marketing of your own business.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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I appreciate all your hard work on that document, but, I wouldn't sign that. Most people would be intimidated by it. I don't copywrite anything. I do however hold all eps files. I release oly jpgs for their ad slicks. Once they pay me, they own it PERIOD.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Russ McMullin:
I think it's a cheap trick to use copyright laws to hold a customer hostage with a "free logo", even if it's within the designer's legal right to do so. It takes advantage of the customer's ignorance of copyright law. Unless this is completely explained to the customer up front, I consider it dirty pool. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Hiya Guys, My intent is not to hold the client's logo hostage or blackmail them into using me forever. I agree that it would be wrong for me to do.
However, I'm offering the client a choice. The client could "buy" my design for a set price, or they can lease it from me at a lower upfront cost. Then, the client can make payments only when they use the design, just like a car or a piece of equipment.
By using a method similar to what is outlined in Dan's agreement, I estimate that a starting price of a logo would be in the $1000-$2000 range, perhaps more. And since most start-up companies can not afford that kind of money, I am offering the client the opportunity to reduce his up-front cost of the logo design. All I’m suggesting that the client enter into licensing agreement with me for my product. The agreement would be similar to rights managed media. The licensing fee would be lower than buying the logo design outright, and I would maintain ownership of the logo.
If the client would request a service that I could provide, I would be happy to do it with no additional licensing cost. However, if it's a service that I do not offer or the client can find the service elsewhere at a lower price, I would be more than happy to provide the logo in the appropriate format that will insure that logo will be produced correctly. And for this service, I would charge a reasonable fee based on what is required of me and/or how much the client is spending on the finished product.
By doing it this way, I am protecting the integrity of my design and the interests of the client at the same time. I feel that the client would be happy to know that I am doing my best to insure that, no matter what kind of derelicts are reproducing this logo, the finished product meets the same standards that I require of my company and my products.
How's that for a sales pitch
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think you're on the money Checkers...and that was an excellent sales job.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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We have not had one person refuse to sign the document. I thought I might get resistance first too - but what it does is put their mind at ease because it clearly specifies what they get from us - deliverables, hours invested, rights to the design, etc. There's no grey area. The only question we sometimes get is 'what if I don't like any?' Well, in general, they have 8 hours of time they're buying to get something they like. If it goes beyond that, then it's $125/hr afterwards.
Checkers don't assume most startups don't have that kind of money. Most startups can't afford NOT to.
Try this approach. Lets say their logo is a nice round figure of $1000. If the 'shelf life' of their logo is say, 10 years on average, divide that by the original cost, and the image and branding of their company costs them $100/year. You gonna tell me the image of your company is not worth $100 a year?
And again, however, before you start trying to pull in real money for logos, make sure you're practicing everything you're trying to preach to your own clients. You can't sell branding if you you're not branded yourself.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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When I get approched to do a logo design, most business owners have already spent a large sum of money getting started, sometimes in the 100-200k range. Even a "small" business will have a 25-50k investment. If I design them a logo, the cost of the products made off the logo far exceeds the actual cost of design them a mark even if I charge them 1-3,000 bucks. I charge by the size of the company and use of the logo. Some small time logos have taken me hours to make, I have designed major branded logos that plopped out of my head in seconds. If a small pool guy who grosses roughly 100k a year wants a logo design that goes on his truck, cards, t-shirts, letterheads and camera ready art for a yellow pages add. It may only be 750-1000.00 bucks....thats only 1% of his gross for the first year. Add the cost of implementing the logo (approx. 2-3,000 bucks or another 2-3%) That is cheap.
I have 2 issues with "selling" a logo design and giving up rights.
One is the clients right to sell it to someone else. I don't mean when he sells the business and the logo goes with it, I mean if the logo is used past it's intended use. Say a person starts marketing a t-shirt line with it, or decals, or makes a product. Then the intended use and worth has changed and should be compensated for.
The other is harder to deal with and that is growth. A start-up company invests in a certain amount of design for an intended use, the company grows to the point where the logo is used on a level way past it's indended use, franchising in particular. A person selling a franchise is selling the intelectual property of thier business plan and your design. While a client should not be charged for business growth in the private use of the logo, franchising it should be compensated for.
If a logo involved some amount of materials like a sign then we would be talking product, logos are not a product but an idea.
Illustrations and some add work are handled the same way, I have sold illustrations to t-shirt companies or made posters for unlimited use and I regret it. If I design an illustration now, there is a limit of impressions that can be made or a time limit to make the impressions much like stock art sites that are around. It keeps the design in it's inteded use and keeps your work from being peddled for parts past a certain point. It keeps me from being held hostage to people who make money past the intented use of a design or project.
Currently there is a big deal with a small logo that was designed by 2 designer for a print shop, they sent the logo off to get something done, the production designer saw the logo, changed the colors a bit and added another element and sold it to a major sporting organization for one of thier biggest events. That small logo is now worth millions in product and collateral materials. It was ripped off, but it's the point that it is being used past it's intended use and now worth a lot. Reselling copies of software which is intellectual property is frowned upon, design is no different. Yet many people hold software companies hostage by copying thier work and they lose millions.
Except for a few jobs early on when I started, I have never had a problem with work getting used that way, I just want the protection just in case and since they are usually standard in print design, I see no problem implementing it myself.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Russ makes a point that is similar to my feeling about this, & in relation to Jerry's situation I think the solution can be as simple as the first reply Russ makes... DO charge for it, & DO release all rights & be done with it. It always sucked to lose an existing client to a lowballer down the street, & it will always suck more if the lowballer copies our good design & then in additional to their substandard pay on the job, they have some nice looking signs to point at & claim as examples of their work... BUT, at least if the design was paid for, the situation doesn't have to suck more then it already does.
I think if a design fee is proposed & a client looks at him like his design talent is worthless... then if for some reason any of us ever still wants to work for such a client, this should be an easy time to say until you have something better, I'll put my worthless design into play BUT... I OWN IT... (since you don't want to buy it) BECAUSE I THINK IT'S WORTH SOMETHING!! ...but if things change & it becomes worthy of further use.. then it can still be purchased at a later date.
Anyway, that was just a thought related to Jerry's situation. For me, I don't do the design work if I don't get paid. On the "layout vs. logo" discussion... if it is a nice enough sign layout that the client may use it like a logo, but not so special that I charged a specific design fee... I will still have priced the job to cover that design fee, though it may not have been itemized, therefore I still have received what I felt necessary compensation & consider the "layout" to be released for any & all future use.
As for Checkers concept (& Dan's & Rick's), I think a lot of us are not ready to sell that level of usage rights. I know I'm not. I accept that it is a level of professionalism to aspire to, but until I grasp it, & believe in myself enough to "own" it... I wouldn't pitch it with enough confidence, & therefore it wouldn't sell... it would just make me look greedy. For now, for me, once my work is done, I want all my pay & we're done. Whatever happens to that client, his business, or his logo... if I don't have to do more work for them, I don't feel comfortable telling them they will owe me more money. That is where the "hostage" comparison Russ mentions rings true for me.
At least I don't have Jerry's clients looking at me like an arrogant ass for wanting a nominal design fee (for other reasons maybe...) but I think I'd get that look if I explained that I'm doing all the work now, but not charging all the money... & then some future action on their part results in oweing me more money
quote:Originally posted by Doug Allan: I don't feel comfortable telling them they will owe me more money. That is where the "hostage" comparison Russ mentions rings true for me.
At least I don't have Jerry's clients looking at me like an arrogant ass for wanting a nominal design fee (for other reasons maybe...) but I think I'd get that look if I explained that I'm doing all the work now, but not charging all the money... & then some future action on their part results in oweing me more money
WOW, I quoted Doug!
I totally agree Doug. I too feel it is a level of arrogance. My main objection is the "hostage" situation created by such arrogance. I mean if after the logo creation and copywrite process, my client needs anything I offer, (shirts, cards, signs, brochures, etc) they are obligated to purchase from me, because I OWN their design. I would have a blank check! I am not comfortable with that.
I, as a design studio / sign shop owner, will EARN my clients business every time
My competitor has visited my studio and attempted to "reason" with me regarding our policy. I sorta feel it is like applying the Golden Rule" in my business. I know that would not set well with me if I was on the other side of the counter.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I am different than Checkers and most sign people is that I don't care who makes the signs or business cards or redoes them. I will provide the artwork to whoever needs it with only a minimal charge for burning the CD. If they are using it for business identity and collateral materials and have a huge pylon made out of it, they paid for that use and I will help them in anyway I can to get it done. In that case I am helping them implement it the best way possible or for thier needs, even if I don't agree with the way they are going about it. (For instance I may have called out uncoated spot color business cards on thick specialty paper stock and they do shiny 4 color in cheap stock-this happens a lot) The logo is design for a certain use and the client should be free to use that logo in any way free from restrictions for that use. It's when the use goes past it's intended design is when the problem starts.
Doug brings up a pet peeve of mine and I fall prey to it all the time still. The logo-ized layout. I will go beyond what is needed and do a cool layout that borders on a logo. The client will call wanting the artwork because they decide they want it as a logo. I have three choices, charge them for it as a logo with the same basic restrictions 9this usually does not go well) provide the artwork at a minimal cost with restrictions or tell them they can't have it or use it for anything other than what it was designed for. I usually go wth the second choice because it is my fault for being a little to eager in doing a good job and tell myself never to do it again....but I do it again.
My basic idea is they can use the logo for whatever they want, and have whoever they please replicate it, just don't sell it as a product.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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And I agree on the arrogance part. EXCEPT,, when the customer is informed before hand. If the client makes informed decisions then there is no aggogance..
It looks like Dan's usage form covers most of that problem. Thank you Dan..
I did a landscaper company signs for his trucks and trailers. It was nice work and he started to get so many calls that he had to take appointments for the work.
I learned three very important lessons on this job.
1: This is a clasic example of a sign doing its job for more than the owner expected. It is worth much more than the $3 grand it earned.
2: Some signs were damaged in an accident. The insurance company tried to have another shop replace the panels at a much lower price. (copying my art) I had my design protected by copyrights and told the ins. co. that they will pay me for the re-use anyway. I won either way...
3: Dan Antonelli taught me much more than just how to do better work thru his business example. PLUS (his $40 bux worth of books made me couple of thousand on the first job).
Later
The landscaper wanted T-shirts made for his crews. He went to a T-shirt company who promptly ripped of my design and printed up a load of shirts and embroidery work on office shirts. And letterhead, and bizz cards..
This is the classic example of usage beyond the scope as first discussed. It is a huge lesson and one that will not be forgotten.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Well because of my disclaimer that accompanies every visual proof the client receives, I've had many follow up calls after the sign, requestion what it would require to pay me for the right to use my design. I'm not as legally hard nosed as some but I make it very clear that I "wiil" get paid for my intellectual property.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
I have a little something like that here. I did a design for a local ATV group for a screenprinter friend of mine. Nothing that special, but they liked it. I talked to the president of the club about buying the design as a logo, with all the files he would need for any type of print, etc. He decided not to do that at the time. Well now, the club has gotten very good size with over 500 members. They have had many jackets, shirts, decals, etc. made since that time. Only thing is, they have to use me for the decals and signs, and the guy that does their embroidery and screening, I have a deal worked out with him also. At this time, they cannot use anyone other than us, because I own the design. Would I sell it to them now? Yep, but more than likely for a higher fee than at the beginning, because it is a very popular design. They havent asked though, as they are apparently happy with the work they are getting. I did have a couple people call me and ask for the design, saying that the club president wanted them to do some work for them, but I knew that he hadnt, and I turned them down. I told them I owned it, and it couldnt be used other than by me. Until the club wants to buy it, I guess it will stay this way.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Thanks - you couldn't ask for a better testimonial.... It means a lot when I hear success stories, as that was my primary reason for writing them in the first bless.
It's no different than what we do for our clients --
While I love to 'make things pretty' I also love to make my clients money and hear how we've helped their business grow.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Hiya people, This has become quite an interesting thread with great input on different ways on how to approach this dilemma. Here's another way I look at this. I'm not just another sign maker or designer, I am an identity solutions provider that makes life easier for my client when it comes to managing his image or brand. For a reasonable fee, I am affording the client to opportunity to save money by using someone other than my company to buy his advertising. So, as an identity solutions provider, it's my job to insure that my clients' image is accurately represented and he is getting the best value for his advertising investment. I recall reading that several of you had issues with phone book advertising with regards to typos, bad placement and butchering of your ad. So, how much would you have paid to correct an ad that they screwed up? Or, better yet, how much would you have saved if you didn't have to pay for a screwed up ad? Just by following Glenn Taylor's suggestion of adding this disclaimer to the ad slick, "we are not responsible for payment if this design is modified in any way without our expressed written consent", I could make life a little easier on my client. Also, if this client opens additional locations that I can not service, the clients’ brand will be protected because I would be the one providing the specifications to insure that a minimum quality standard is met. I can specify the brand and color of materials so the client doesn’t have to deal with the hypothetical Avery problem or substandard manufacturing.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Maybe I sould be calling myself a Visual Marketing Specialist, with a focus on outdoor and out-of-home advertising. Serving to build and protect your identity. Obviously, this is a work-in-progress and it does need some tweaking. I just hope that my competition isn't reading or taking notes.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Checkers, I don't think you can use hindsight to solve unforeseen problems. Doug Allen thought he had covered his bases with the YP ad, but it still got screwed up. Not paying for the ad still wouldn't "protect" his brand image. It's going to be screwed up for a year at least. The same goes for the Avery issues. Who knew it would fail before it failed? How will you protect your clients against a future, unforeseen failure of vinyl, paint, or substrate?
I personally wouldn't buy the sales pitch about brand protection. It sounds the same as when a car salesman offers a rust inhibitor package to "protect your investment". It would make more sense to me if you said, "If you can't afford the full amount up front, we can work out a payment plan. Until the logo has been paid for in full, I will charge a fee to work with outside vendors. Upon receipt of the balance, you are free to use the logo however you wish". Perhaps you do have your clients' best interest in mind, but I suspect you are even more interested in the money it will make for you.
I had a feeling the Nike story would surface - the romantic story about the stolen logo that produced the pot of gold that ended up in the wrong hands. Well, I've seen swooshes on plenty of logos, and most of them suck. I would be interested in seeing the original rendition. How much is a logo worth when the originator doesn't have a vision of its potential? It's easy to say, "I could have done that" once a deed is done, but it's quite another thing to originate the success of something. A hamburger is just a meal in the hands of most people, but a few had the ability to turn the humble hamburger into a multi-billion dollar industry. So, how much is a hamburger worth? It really depends on who is handling it. In my recollection, Nike was first popular because they made great shoes. Later they associated their name with the greatest of athletes. That prestige made it fashionable to wear the brand. In my opinion the brand is not directly responsible for the success of the company.
This brings up another thought. How much accountability does the designer have to make the customer's business succeed? We would all love to hitch a ride on the success of a fast-rising company. Of course it would be nice to have even a small fraction of that income. But what if the business fails? Should you return the money you charged for the logo? If you are negotiating royalties to share in the spoils of success, shouldn't you also share some responsibility for the failures? It's just a thought.
Stating that a logo should start around $1000 to $2000 is reasonable...depending on who the designer is. Most of us don't charge anywhere near that much. If Dan Antonelli is responsible for it, I have no doubt it would be worth at least that much. How about if someone's nephew designs it? Even if that nephew is a graphic design student, is it possible he doesn't have the skills to create a completely successful solution? How much is it worth then? Can its worth have a negative dollar amount? How often have we seen logos that don't function? Has the designer considered readability issues at various distances? Does the logo retain its integrity in grayscale and black and white? Are different versions created to accomodate large and small applications, as well as use on the web? If we are going to charge ad-agency prices for logos, we need to provide the same level of service.
The client should be happy they spent their money with us regardless of the amount. If they feel they've been cheated (even if they haven't) they won't be back, and the goose that laid the golden eggs might has well be served for dinner.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Russ, it was not the Nike logo I was relating too, this is a very recent occurance with another designer.
What is intersting about the Nike logo is that the designer was later compensated in the 7 figures for her contribution. That logo was not ripped off, she got paid her 35 bucks, she was later compensated because Nike has a great founder who appreciated her contribution.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Thanks Rick, I was going to bring that up about the later compensation for the Nike logo. Yep, she was a design student at the time and probably retired because of the later royalties she earned.
Of course, how likely is it any other small business owner that reaps the same success would return that favor?
By the way, Nike started off as one dude importing athletic shoes from Japan and selling them from the back of his van at highschool events. He got his old HS coach to be the qualifier for the product to help sell them.
Eventually they started designing their own shoes.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I thought Mike was started by that guy in the Steve Prefontaine movie... gluing together bits of truck-tire shavings or something onto lightweight form fitted construction made to fit Steve's foot.
posted
Hey Jerry, I apologize for hijacking your post! Hopefully our comments shed some insight on your dilema
Now, Russ, you are 100% right. Hindsight is 20/20 and I cannot predict the future. I doubt that there is anyone who can.
However, my knowledge and experience of working with hundreds, if not thousands, of others who have started their own business does give me some insight or, dare I say, expertise in small business start-ups.
In my 20+ years of dealing with both small and large organizations, I can now predict, with a fair amount of accuracy, whether or not a business will survive their first few years. Better yet, I can take that one step further and pretty much tell you why they're going to succeed or fail.
A recent example of where my “wisdom” or services would have been of value is with my dentist. I could have made life a lot easier for my dentist when purchased his new sign. I would have recommended that he doesn’t let his current sign guy use Avery A-8 vinyl on his rear-lit sign because it was the wrong material for the job and there was a good chance of failure. He is now dealing with a defective sign and a sign company that is not standing behind the services they rendered.
No questions asked my motives are financial. I am starting my own business to make more money. After all, that's part of what being in business is all about. So, if my marketing advice and services take that mom and pop burger joint and turns it into the new Wendy’s, you can bet, I'll be there billing for it.
As sign makers, we do have this "I.O.A.F.S." mentality. But, to many individuals who are going on their own for the first time, they see the image that we create for them as something much more than a sign. Their “shingle” with our design or logo symbolizes that they have finally it the “big time” and they are officially, masters of their own destiny.
So, as professionals, it is our responsibility to start that business off on the right foot, taking the time to educate the client and help them start in the right direction. The services that I provide my clients will help build their dream and take them far beyond what they originally imagined. So, how can you put a price tag on that? I think my approach to this situation does.
You may not like my approach and I’m sure there will be many new businesses that feel the same way as you. But, I think that there are those who decide to conduct business with me will be very pleased with what I offer. Whether I succeed or fail, well that’s yet to be seen
Havin’ fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Checkers, I really do hope it works out great for you. It's not the approach I would take, but if you can keep customers happy using it, why not?
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
A good Reputation is the key to getting good fees for logo design work. I speak from experience. Start off by charging a very modest fee for logo work at first. Don't skimp on design effort here. This builds confidence in your design work, sales pitch & future customers in your professionalism. In time you will be getting more work, your fees will gradualy increase and most importantly so will your reputation for good work. With a good portfolio, and a little smart marketing(yes self branding) you will be attracting clients who value these efforts and will be very happy to pay a nice fee for this valuable service.
quote:they have 8 hours of time they're buying to get something they like
This comment is right on the mark. Really, I think we signers would get more respect from the market if we talked and acted like the professional designers we already are.
We would certainly get more respect from the "agencies." Too many times, we sign people practically give away what they routinely charge for: design time and effort. What they call, in their vernacular, the "creative."
Here is how some designers handle the selling of a logo design: It is typical to tell the client that for a set price you will get three versions for review. They may be similar to each other or totally different. "Totally different" commands a larger fee. The fee may include, as an example, one moderately complex revision of the chosen version, and then one set of "tweaks." The revision may involve combining some elements of the versions already given or incorporating something new into one of them. The tweaks may involve re-positioning, re-assigning colors, or other relatively minor changes. The finished product is then produced in enough formats so all possible uses are covered. This may include a rendering that has all the color stripped out, for, say newspaper ads, or a rendering that has wider spacing so it can be embossed. And so on.
How do you know that you will be able to produce something the client will accept? Ask questions. Have they seen things they like elsewhere? Have them show you examples of the look they are going for. Show them examples of designs, and listen to their comments. The designs don't even have to come from your portfolio. Of course, as you build a design portfolio, you will have more to present that is your own.
Experience can tell you that this process may fall into the 8-hour range. $1000.00 is not an unreasonable price. In my area, the Kansas City metro, $1000-1500 is average for designing a logo. A designer may "update" an existing logo for as little as $500.00, but that is considered cheap for something nice and new. And speaking of time, remember there may be a certain amount of customer face time involved at more than one stage. You may even be a person that allows a client to spend some time looking over your shoulder (ick!). This can be dangerous. If it gets out of hand it can easily eat up profit.
Do you think that the above fees are not possible in your area? I would say that there are probably agencies in your area doing it all the time. It's all about positioning yourself in the market, as Dan A. has explained elsewhere at length.
Interestingly, I fielded a call from one of our customers, a rubber company, about converting their logo into vector form from the pdf they gave me. Since I do some of the estimating here, I gave him a number that we would be adding to the cost of the signs we were going to be making. The logo was simple and I figured it at an hour and a half of art time. He emailed me a thank you for the "blue light special" price. Puzzling, till I then received an email from his ad agency, politely suggesting that we need to raise our art prices. Her message was proper and professional, but reading between the lines, and after further discussion with the rubber company client, we (I) had made the agency look bad. And obviously, we had left money on the table. I am actually embarrassed to say here how much. Worst is that the agency will probably never use us now. And they could have given us ten times the work the rubber company gave us.
Brad in Kansas City
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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