....now to me, that would be one I would definitly buy....anytime you can poke fun at those folks....you would appeal to a VAST audience.
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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My first post was loaded with sarcasm and satirical statements about what I would consider a synopsis of just how bad a self help signmaking starter video could be. Sort of a "How to make signs for fun and profit" thing.
This whole thing was brought into discussion here by Barry and I did jump all over it, not as a personal attack, but with something of a poke at what many people here on this site feel has been damaging to the sign industry as a whole...devaluation.
Amidst the denziens of Letterville are people who hold seminars, create fonts, are product representatives and merchants, many of whom are respected in their experience and willingness to share their expertise. Moreso, many here feel a passion for this craft and have dedicated themselves to improving their skills and sharing that knowledge here and at live meets.
I would only make one point at this time and then I'll go play in traffic if you like...
You stated that one person here should go where there is no competition...
...yet here you are in the middle of a website that, for no money at all, offers a wide scope of information on making signs at every skill level from beginner to veteran.
How did you think we'd react?
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sometimes I see the term Letterville used as if it was one person. Remember when you first joined this Forum? Their was a disclaimer that went like this
The Letterhead Website cannot assume responsibility for the validity of any information other than our own comments on this board.
Letterville has almost 9,500 shops registered in our database. Out of that number, 5,359 are registered BB users. A handful of users do not speak for all of Letterville. When you read Letterville says this, or Letterville says that, it should really say some people in Letterville say this or that.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
That's why I like ya so much Bruce... Your not just another purdy face...your a deep thinker with a good handle on the important issues in life...and when the Chinese take over, you'll never go hungry.
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I don't know about the rest of you, but this guy's video and website have about as much to do with my type of sign work - both in design and execution - as it does with quantum physics. Quicky vynull work has already been about as devalued and debased as it could be, long before Mr. Dissinger started selling his version of snake oil to the masses. Anyone with half a clue - and I admit, that's rare - has figured out that the only way to add real value to your work, as Dan S. has explained, is to offer the type of work that the vast majority cannot or will not bother to learn to do. So why is anyone even toubling themselves to respond to his provocations?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I am still working on my 401Keg plan... Care to join me?
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Cam .. Actually, your analysis is not far off, except for the snake oil. Most sign people that I have met, find a niche that they feel good about and move into that style as their own personal expression in signs. This accounts for the wide diversity of Totally Different, but uniquely well done signs we all see.
I ... on the other hand, have pulled BACK from most of those specialties, finding them to be, overall, more-sell .. more-effort & less bottom line profit than vinyl ...but... I do know that SOME people have the great knack to show totally different time-to-profit ratios and it works for them. So .. I am no real threat to them, nor they to me.
As far as provocations and responses go ... this is just the outcry of those who do NOT do very well in their own business, blaming some object far away for this lack of business. For the moment .. I am that reason. I can deal with it since I know it to be a false accusation, by people who have no useful knowledge of the item ...but ... somehow PROCLAIM it to be bad. Most religions are full of this type person who proclaims all new concepts, works themselves up over this created falsehood, and THEN does something real mean and stupid that gets them on the news, all the while claimimg their mission was divine.
Not everybody can think clearly, or emerge with a logical conclusion. ( kinda like plunger-lady )
" Long live vinyl, and the people who cut it "
-------------------- Richard Dissinger www.SignTrainer.com "Sign Shop Training Videos for Beginners" Tampa, fl 813-814-7611 wwwAABestSigns.com Posts: 31 | From: Tampa Fl | Registered: Aug 2004
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You people shouldn't be so jealous because someone beat you to the punch.At least Richard had the balls to go after the money maker and stick with it.Koudles to you Richard.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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I'm not against Richard per say, just his mannerisms. It's obvious he has a grasp on the English language, and uses it quite well to express himself, as evidenced in here of late. It's what he's saying that bothers me, am I alone in noticing that his research has gone deep enough to make comments on them about things that only time knowing someone would provide unless sought after to make a judgement on their overall personality and traits, in which to pick on them with, using snide remarks and uttering enenudos about them, half truths arrived at by not really knowing person, just their internet personality??? Sorry Richard, I've tried to stay out of this, for one, I'm not interested in your product and for another, you were beset upon coming in. And you have all the rights to do your business anyway you deem, hopefully profitable, of course...but does riding over ppl. you can outspeak make you feel better? Really? Does it? Can't imagine it does, but then, I could be wrong...for someone as articulate as you to stoop to snide, half-hidden remarks about some of your accusers, doesn't make me think of you in light I'd presume you'd like to see others see you in...first impressions never go away, your stabs are what make me wary of you, not fact you may be a good guy or not, you may be, but road to that awareness here has been lengthened by your uncalled for responses to those expressing their opinions of your product. Isn't that part of business, the ability to take criticism? W/O it, how would one get an honest, average idea of what ppl. think of product or service??? To defend product is acceptable in my opinion, if kept within certain restraints, when those lines are crossed and feelings are hurt unneccessarily, then it's time to say, enough is enough...the fastest way to gain something is with honey, not vinegar, as I'm sure your probably already aware of, needless to say, nice works everytime, going in. Afterwards is a shallow gesture at best....that's the way I see it... Good luck w/whatever it is that you sell, but take it easy on the ppl. in here will you? Never know when one of them and you might meet in a dark alley somewhere USA...as you've already pointed out many times, this is a wide forum, attended by many, never know who's lurking, never say never...oh, and Richard, that wasn't a threat, just an observation and opinion stated in light of your postings in here...you've stepped on some toes, expect to recieve some negative feedback for awhile, if you decide to stick around...
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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Frank .. your words have good meaning. I really do not have a strong inner desire to put out a lot of the words I do, any more than I really want to eat chocolate. BUT ...... the temptations are too strong sometimes too resist. When either situation is shoved into my face and I didn't make any moves toward it in my own ......I CONFESS ...I become weak !!
Anyone who has a "reasonably" nice comment toward me or my product finds my responses to be nice. The battle-responses that you see are saved ONLY for those who have stepped on my toes FIRST. YOU have not, and THIS response is , I hope, well received by you.
Once again .. for the record .. I say to all ... my Sign Shop Training Video does in fact work, is NOT there as an attack on the sign industry, my goal is/was never to come here just to create negative comments, only to defend FROM negative comments .. by people who post them just to look important to others. I thank the many who have supported (in various degrees) my position, and to those who have found themselves BESTED by my responses to their silliness ... well ... fall back, re-group, realize you were wrong and learn from it. That is called growing up.
The truth is ... I do not take any of this NEAR as seriously as many of you seem to. Some of you are declaring this as some type of HOLY-WAR. I am smiling the whole time I type this stuff and laugh at most of it. Keep it all coming if you feel the NEED ... I can use the exercise.
-------------------- Richard Dissinger www.SignTrainer.com "Sign Shop Training Videos for Beginners" Tampa, fl 813-814-7611 wwwAABestSigns.com Posts: 31 | From: Tampa Fl | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Before I lay this one to rest, I'd love to see something from Richard that will benefit the users of Letterville. Is there a chapter or section of the video that you can share with Letterville newbies at no cost? It could be something as simple as surface preparation.
Let's assume Letterville is a really cool car. I'm willing to lend out my car, but you gotta at least put some gas back in it.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
I have found that alphabet characters (i.e. A,B,C etc) can be useful as artwork. I load the character, often script types, convert to curves, and thru node edit actions I alter it's appearance ( add - delete - stretch ).
Example: Motorhome graphics: take a lower case, script font, letter "v" flatten it out, stretch it left-to-right, and convert to curves (where needed) and add or delete nodes to get the look you need. Script-type "S" with the top half chopped off, rotated 90 degrees, and then flattened out can make for nice underline efects or flower stems, or car graphics. The next time you need a special effect for a job, look to your font list and let your imagination work overtime
#2 SPARE PARTS -As u go further from your shop to do work,it's important to take a few spares where it is easy to do. EXAMPLE- you are making (3) website decals for a truck lettering job. They are 3" high each, and you will end up with 4-5" of scrap vinyl after the cut ... why not cut 1 more ... JUST IN CASE you get one on crooked or damage it. It seems that the larger letters are more likely to go on straight, especially if you are using wet application ... while you may tend to disregard the need to be as careful with the smaller ones thinking " .. what could go wrong here? This is small,which means easy".
WRONG!! I find that I treat the smaller items with less care than the large ones, and in doing so can find myself going back the following day , wasting time, and reputation, just to do one little DASH in a phone number, or something tiny like that, but troublesome. There is no better plan than caution, care, and working to your best practical speed ... but mistakes happen. Be prepared and take a little extra of each color vinyl with you also when you go. This has saved me MANY times from returning and finishing the job right ... THE SECOND TIME !!!
#3 - All [newish] FORD vans have wierd bubble shapes to them. If you measure the MAIN panel at the front edge, just behind the door, you will find it to be 24 1/2 inches, yet at the REAR, it changes to 22 inches. The result of which is ... RARELY do your words/graphics look like you put them on straight, and guess what ...your customer notices it also. On top of this, the indentation (about middle going front to back) is on most models, NOT straight either .. it goes downhill. Call these points out to your customer prior to lettering and let them know that there is likely to be a difference in the look as they scan FRONT to BACK word alignment. I have yet to find a perfect solution to this that satisfies ALL potential objections.
STEVE - Some to ALL of the readers HERE on this forum may already know these tips/techniques due to experience, however, imagine you are NEW at this again, and imagine just how useful these and other, training tips could be. I am willing to bet that at least SOME of those reading this have found at least ONE item useful...even if they refuse to admit it.
Hope this puts a LITTLE gas in ...
-------------------- Richard Dissinger www.SignTrainer.com "Sign Shop Training Videos for Beginners" Tampa, fl 813-814-7611 wwwAABestSigns.com Posts: 31 | From: Tampa Fl | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
RE: 401keg It's saddening to think that my years of investing in scotch has never returned anything more valuable than a headache. Oh well, at least I don't have a "scotch belly."
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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While I'm not a "Vinyl Guy", I've found over the years, that you can learn something from everybody, and Mr. Dissinger made an educational Tape with a lotta how to's, who's to say you won't pick up on ONE THING that might be worth the price of the tape over a period of time.
I'm an old Pro, but as a teacher, we (the school) buy all kinds of Videos, and I have, yet, to see one I haven't picked up "Something' . . . get off the man's back . . .
posted
What would have happened to me if you guys knew that eight years ago I sold information on the internet about how I could teach anybody the sign business? I too advertised that it was possible to make $100,000. + a year and that was a fact. I was doing it so I didnt' lie. Would I have been reamed a new anal cavity? Somehow I don't think so because everyone knows me here.
I sold an info package over the internet when it was just taking off, about what was involved in the sign business and people paid me $7,000.00. to attend my class. It did include a plotter and software for that price along with the course. The student spent an intensive 40 hour week here in my shop to learn how to start their own sign business. It was an accelerated training course which covered the business aspects, psychology as it pertained to sales and design. The software, basics of Mike Stevens design principles, and production methods.
I taught a dozen students, some who couldn't even draw a stick figure. Funny but those guys are still in business today and making a damn good living. One of my students within a week sold his very first 4'x8 sign after leaving my course for $700.00
How could he get that much money you might ask? Because I told him he could and he didnt know any better to not believe me. Also because the design he submitted was worth it after I critiqued it for him.
The only reason I dropped the course was because to be a really good teacher is exhausting. I only wish I had thought of the video course back then. I would have only had to teach once and could have sold far more videos and for the price I might have sold thousands of them.
We all forget too soon where we all started. I would be ashamed to show some of my first signs that I did. I had no teacher or information at all. Image what I would be like today if only I had gotten lessons from somebody. Being entirely self taught, I have paid dearly for all the trial and error mistakes I've made.
This is America and its based on money whether you admit it or not. Its possible to be crafty in the sign business AND make money. There's no shame in it.
I think its funny that everyone is getting their feathers all ruffled up. We all should worry more about our own business and not what everyone else is doing. We would be better off in the long run.
[ February 19, 2006, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Bob Stephens ]
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
It is hard to imagine why YOU, as a sign PAINTER would feel angry or threatened by this VINYL Sign Training Video. If you are angry about the posts, perhaps you should focus your negative words toward Barry, since he is the one who started the whole discussion off.
I will remind you what STEVE said ...
"I can't blame Richard for coming here to defend his product. After all, it was one of us that fired the first shot. Who can blame anyone, friend or foe, from getting some free publicity in the most read Forum available"
While the advertising has NOTHING to do you my being here, since the chances of selling a tape here is unlikely, I would suggest to you that every word YOU post about me, is one more word that COULD possibly interest someone to check out my product, so... if YOU do not want the world to know about my training video .. the best way to accomplish that is to not add more fuel to the fire.
-------------------- Richard Dissinger www.SignTrainer.com "Sign Shop Training Videos for Beginners" Tampa, fl 813-814-7611 wwwAABestSigns.com Posts: 31 | From: Tampa Fl | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I am speechless.... 40 bucks huh? thats the same money as Mass Mayhem 6, our 3 day Letterhead meet where you can learn, pinstriping, gold leaf, airbrushing, hand carving, smalts, and I will personally do a demo on how to stick a stickah on straight.... and we will even provide lunch....such a bargin!
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Richard.... have you ever been to a Letterhead meet?
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Yes it is.... We have many beginners as well as master craftsmen in attendance every year. It may help you in your business to speak with people that have been in the trade for 40+ years. check it out under "future live meets" on the menu on the left on this site. Maybe you could donate a copy of your video as a door prize, maybe AJ could win something useful.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Ken; could you post a link to MM6? I'm in dark as to it's exact dates and such, was thinking there might be a link to show dates, times, and maybe even a map as Burb won't let me install GPS...RC was talking it up other night in chat...AJ better get w/it, even Scotty won a t-shirt...
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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Frank, check it out under "future live meets on the left hand side menu, it has the dates and times but Gary is still working on a registration form and map, its very easy off route 93 and tthe hotel is Motel 6 in Tewksbury.,.. I will get Gary to get all the forms and stuff in order this week, email me if you want more info.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I would be pleased to donate a copy with one condition, that is that it end up going to a beginner, or at least someone who is 'new-ish' who really could put some of it to use.
Richard
-------------------- Richard Dissinger www.SignTrainer.com "Sign Shop Training Videos for Beginners" Tampa, fl 813-814-7611 wwwAABestSigns.com Posts: 31 | From: Tampa Fl | Registered: Aug 2004
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I did not see the calender you spoke of, but again consider it done. When you do the giv-a-way, just notify me of the recipients name and address and I will send it directly to them, most likely on the same day.
-------------------- Richard Dissinger www.SignTrainer.com "Sign Shop Training Videos for Beginners" Tampa, fl 813-814-7611 wwwAABestSigns.com Posts: 31 | From: Tampa Fl | Registered: Aug 2004
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Roy!!! Not until AFTER the secret handshake...sheeeeesh...
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Richard, I applaud your fortitude. This can be a tough crowd, but Bob said it best - we only have to think about our first sign to remember just how bad we were in the beginning.
There's room for all skill levels in this business and not many of us will EVER reach the quality of the Gary Anderson signs that Steve posted a link to.
I personally thought that the excerpt Richard posted had some pretty good advice. When I do boat registration numbers, I always cut an extra set - unfortunately, I learned that lesson the hard way. Since apparently, NOT ONE PERSON HERE has actually seen his video, aren't we jumping the gun a little?
Be careful if you go to Mass Mayhem, Richard. That's witch country up there and they might try to see if you float..........
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
when I finally make it to my first meet... I'll get to face plenty of folks I've sparred with here on the board ... even Atlantic City put me face to face with a few... & that was all good too.
The fun we have here is different then meeting face to face from the get go... but Richard ain't the lone ranger by no means... nothing can be said that pleases everyone... & much of what his chosen marketing approach has to say has alienated more then a few folks... followed by his less then congenial first attempts at introducing himself... but I agree with Sonny... from the sample of advice posted... it has merit more then was implied by all the naysayers judging only from his website.
(by the way Sonny... I enjoyed reading your profile in SignCraft. I have it with me on the road & bragged to my family that I swapped a panel with you. I cherish mine even more after seeing your work published! I told my family that to have a profile in that mag is one of my lifetime achievement goals. Congratulations!)
posted
Sonny, don't be scared, the meet is in Tewksbury MA this year, its almost NH, aint no puritans up there. Plus we havent linched any witches in months!
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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As a member of the Grand Poobah Exalted Pishposh Executive Directorate Politburo & Oligarchy, I strongly object to the suggestion that the Letterhead movement approves, condones or engages in cannibalism! It is a well-known fact that we have this problem relatively under control! Persons engaging in these slanderous and abomnible heresies will be cooked and ea... prosecuted! That's right! In a in a proper court! No cooking! By that I emphatically deny that anyone has been eaten raw! Or cooked! Recently, at least...
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Topic Closed
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Oh well, tell me about that 401 thingy. ![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
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It is a well-known fact that we have this problem relatively under control! 
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