posted
Hiya 'Heads, Here's my situation, I'm crunching the numbers to establish my hourly rate, but it just doesn't seem to be adding up. Actually, it's adding up to be too much . Since I'm working from home, I figured that my hourly rate should be reasonably low. I'm figuring that my overall expenses including rent, utilities, etc. would be a little more than half of what I'm paying right now. I've also added in professional fees, advertising, some training, computer upgrades, a reasonable salary, health insurance, etc. which would bring my total expenses up to $6,200 a month. I'm using ProfitWatch and figuring that I'll be working 5 billable hours a day, 48 weeks a year. After running the calculations and it's saying that I should be charging $83+ per hour when I figure in taxes and a 20% gross profit on my overhead. If I eliminate the 28% federal income tax, the rate would still be $77.50 And if I eliminate the 20% profit, I'm down to $62 per hour. So, I guess my questions are... Are you really making money or is your business profitable? or Are my numbers off? As usual, any suggestions or input, no matter how silly you may think it is would be quite helpful to me.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If you're asking if we think those numbers sound right, I'd say yes, they do.
Your hourly shop rate is $83 to produce an after tax net profit of 20% with only 1000 billable hours to cover your overhead.
Mark Roberts gave a seminar at the USSC show indicating you should be achieving a net profit of 30% after tax. My accountant and business advisors say I should be happy with 10%. Your 20% goal is ambitious but apparently doable (according to Mark).
The question is, can you expect to realize $83/hour? If not, you either need to increase your hours or decrease your overhead.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Hey Checkers this is something I struggled with for a long time and have told many other sign makers if you are self employed in the sign business and working for wages, save yourself the headache and go work for someone else and save yourself the stress. I don't know about your particular market but that would be competitive in Portland Oregon where my shop was, our shop rate was $125 higher than most but we were doing specialized work and that's what we had to charge to cover the basis.
I am glad you are going through the steps to see what it truly costs to be in business it is shocking to most, and if you fail to charge your hourly rate you will loose money, I know two ways to lower the price of your work buy your negotiate a lower price for your materials (and as we all know materials are not a large part of the equation it is labor that kills us all) or learn ways to produce your product quicker while keeping high quality standards.
Too many people do not go through the process that you are going through, and they end up finding out at the end of the year they lost money, and by not knowing what to charge you end up giving your skills away and making it harder for the next sign business when you go out of business and the new guy has to explain why his pricing is what it is...you do NO one any good if your business is not profitable, customers become uneducated, have to pay to have artwork recreated, and you loose money. And it is a difficult process to raise your prices once you realize you are not making any money, you end up with all the cheap customers and they hop ship when you raise your prices and you are back to square one.
good on you for going through the steps, its a hard process, but you will be glad you did it, the next hard part is sticking by your pricing.
good luck
Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Checkers, you did'nt mention payin' an employee . . . if you were to have an employee that would be where this 'extra' income would be going . . . or you would be charging even more.
One of my problems, and I think a problem in general, inherent with the 'home-based = low-over-head' theory, is automatically pricing ourselves too low. In order to EVER HAVE any overhead . . . an inventory, and employee, newer equipment, a newer office, or building addition, which might require an additional power meter (according to your insurance/bldg.codes) I HAVE got to be pricing just as if I had the same overhead as any other not home-based-business.
posted
Like Sheila said, if you ever want a shop, which is going to cost more for rent, more for utilities and don't forget that commercial phone lines are expensive, you will never achieve it if you set prices at a "home-based" level.
If those are your numbers, however much you want to earn, however much you want to invest back into business, etc. those are your numbers and that's how it works out.
Maybe you are expecting too much growth right off the bat?
What you're essentially saying is, you need $75,000/yr to achieve your goals, and I don't think that's a lofty expectation considering you need to pay yourself a salary which is a huge chunk of it. You just have to work really hard to achieve it, harder than you would if you worked for someone else.
The real issue at hand is, can you honestly do that in your first year? two years? three? four? Can you pull in enough volume of work with enough profit margin to pull that off?
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I have been at this for 25 years, and my observation in dealing almost exclusivly with other business owners is that if you want to suceed in any business that you are building from the ground up, be prepared to put in very long hours for a long time. Every business is like this, why would the sign business be any different. Most business owners don't think twice about putting in 12-16 hour days, sometimes 6-7 days a week to build up their business. If you are not prepared to do that, you should be working for someone else who will. Because I have "paid my dues" for the past 2 decades, I have the luxury of taking a day off to go golfing or quiting after an 8-9 hour day.
The reward comes later, and IT IS WORTH IT!!. I can get away with working less than 50 hours now (and still have a high income) because of what I did in the past.
Your example of working 8 to get 5 hours production should be working 12 to get 9 hours. Because you are just starting out, you may have even more hours in "non-productive" sales time until you build up you customer base.
The problem that I see with many talented sign makers is that they are lousy businessmen. That's why the franchises that are run well will make alot of money selling an inferior product. A talented sign person with some business sense can clean up in this business.
-------------------- Carper's Signs 594 Union School Rd. Mount Joy, PA 17552 carpersign@earthlink.net Posts: 157 | From: Lancaster, PA, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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5 hours a day of billable time sounds doable...BUT alot of times this happens...bookkeeping 1 hr, too much time spent on some estimates 1.5hr, gotta clean the shop and make a dump run 2 hr, shyt my paint job failed i need to research the problem 5hrs(this wound is still fresh), will the fkin phone stop ringing!, crap so&so is here for their sign and i forgot to print the bill, oh swell a paper jam....fling, slam, crash...oops shouldn't have thrown it across the room...now i have to drive to staples and buy another printer(1hr)...maybe i should cut that alumalite for all those ski signs i need to get done...wtf is this shyt?...the aluminum is delaminating from the core...dammit can anything go right? lemme spend a few minutes(2 hrs later)checking out the board.....i think you get my drift.
a one person shop has its draw backs for sure. its all you baby. some days i can puke out $1000 in prints, lettering or signs...then there might be days that i don't bill out anything because its all unbillable time. i know you are thinking 5 hours per day is an average in the course of a week....and if you are very self motivating and not burnt out then its probably close...but think of it this way...if you need to bill out $6200 for your hourly rate just to cover bills which is not including any cost of goods sold...depending on that you need to be at roughly $8500.00 month in gross sales. that would mean you need to gross about $100k a year. can you realistically do that by yourself in your area?
i have yet to break $90k...i don't feel i make enough for as hard as i work. yes i have a nice lifestyle, don't get me wrong...but that is also because i'm married to someone who grosses what i gross. i don't want to show a big profit...i'm the right off. if i added in all my perks and things my business pays for it would be equivilant to taking home $650/wk in pay after taxes. that would mean i would have to find a job in my area that would pay me roughly $55k a year. i can tell ya right now that aint gonna happen in this little new england town...so self employment is the way for me.
your numbers are probably right on at $80/hr...the sign industry as a whole doesn't charge enough $$ to justify the bullshyt that goes along with the risk. i hope more people like you get into it rather than the idiots that work for peanuts and ruin the market.
good luck!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:oh swell a paper jam....fling, slam, crash...oops shouldn't have thrown it across the room...now i have to drive to staples and buy another printer
awesome & accurate description from top to bottom Karyn... the ", slam, crash...oops " sequence especially, as I had my wife hang up on me at the wrong time recently. Most of the pieces went back together.. the speaker wasn't found for a week & several little electronic diodes that must not have done anythin important were still on the floor later.. but the pieces I re-assembled did result in a working phone without speaker, or audible button tones... good enough for the break room anyway... but the new 2-phone set-up cost me $100 & now it "speaks" the caller ID info at me & it won't shut up. (at least I know how to remove phone speakers now)
I grossed 100K for about 4 years, then 130 last year with mimimal P.T. help... but by adding a F.T. guy this year for the last 7 months, we hit 200K... but all in all, I work too many hours, have a decent lifestyle, & lots of tangible material investments... but no savings to speak of. So, by other peoples standards I should go work for someone else... but the way I see it, I love working for myself, & no matter how many hours I spend... I usually get stir crazy when I'm not working for too long & I end up wanting to work some more. On the other hand I hate working for other people, so even if I made the same money in less hours, it would suck instead of being enjoyable... PLUS no security, it could end & be difficult to replace.
posted
Checkers, $83.00 per hour seems like a fair price and 5 billable hours a day seems about right. I have a partner at work and we figure I have about 4 billable hours a day and he has 6 because I do more of the sales, paperwork and answering the phone. We try to figure jobs at $100. per hour for the labor part. Now that it's a new year we will refigure and I'm sure the rate will go up with higher, heat, electric and insurance costs.
Like Karen, some days we're lucky and both get in 7-8 hours of work. Sometimes we have to leave early or take a day off so it all evens out.
Another big thing we do to increase our bottom line is buying supplies right. "You can make just as much money when you buy as when you sell" my father always said. We pretty much shop around to 3-4 suppliers when we make a large purchase. We buy aluminum 50 sheets at a time, vinyl usually 10 rolls at a time and foils for the Edge about 10 rolls at a time. We're going to use them anyway so might as well pay as little as possible for them. The same goes for all of our supplies. It's amazing the different prices that we can be quoted for the same items and how much we can save if we buy in quantity.
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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Rob, I don't know what drives you, but that is way too many hours. That goes for starting or for an established business.
When I opened my shop, many extra hours were put in for setting up the place, painting, displays, arranging, you name it. What's to be gained staying 4 more hours a night after that? There was no big nut to crack that wasn't being handled by the work done during regular business hours. I could see if part of the day was taken by drumming up work, making more mistakes that experienced people wouldn't make and such, then you would need to work longer to make up for that. After you know what you are doing, have regular business, you should find a groove and regular hours.
Too many justify long hours forever because they don't charge enough, mismanage their time, or just plain want too much and their isn't enough time in the day for them.
Find a balance Brian, you already have the skills to make good money.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Why would you working at home have anything to do with your hourly rate? Is the quality of your work any less because it's produced in your home? Why penalize yourself for being home based.
Is everything you're selling stricly priced by time and materials? If so then you know what you have there that you're selling right - it's called a commodity.
I know your work Brian - I always thought what you sold is a service. Signs are merely a substrate from which to sell advertising. Sell advertising and marketing instead of signs. Sell advice - sell strategy. Those things have less to do with time and materials than the perception of who you are as a business and what you provide for clients.
Offer tools to expand and generate revenue for your clients through innovative signage solutions and you'll quickly become more than a provider (and cost center) for your clients, but rather a strategic partner who's marketing expertise helps generate revenue and growth opportunities for their business.
Don't get me wrong - it's important to know exactly how much your business costs to run on a daily, and hourly basis. But basing all your pricing around that figure is, in my opinion, more suited by those who are strictly selling vinyl by the pound (ie. commodities).
Don't shortchange your 20 or so years of experience. You're probably 4 or 5 times faster than a newbie - why charge less- because it took you less time? It took 20 years (or whatever) to get to your level - don't minimize your depth of knowledge and experience.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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not to be an ass...but who cares about numbers if your doing all you can do? after 19 years the the first ten were surviving and they were hard. the last 9 have been great and to "bring up" numbers is somethig i dobt see the point it.
i have savings, retirement, funds, health insurance, workers comp. im doing better than i used to and im very comfortable. finace asks me alot if i know what i make a year or am i interested? No1 i dont care it doesnt matter. eveything is fine.
why is there a concern for finding or searching these numbers? is it part of goal. or maybe im not so much into my own accounting as i should be.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Thanks for the replies everyone. At first I just thought that I was doing the math wrong. But, after hearing your replies, I feel much better. I also figured that adding a productive full-time time employee will lower the hourly rate, but that's much further down the road. After nearly 15 years in this business, I've learned that a new business will take 5 to 7 years to really get established. Around the 10 year mark is when you can start getting comfortable - not that it ever gets easy. Although I'm thinking in several different directions, my primary intent is to operate as a profitable business. A business with tangeable assets that can be sold down the road. I'm figuring that If I start off right, within 10 to 20 years, I'll have that asset. I've seen too many business owners, not just sign makers, that have slaved for 20-30 years or more, building a full time job for themselves. When it came time for them to retire, their busines was not worth more than its assets. And, not that they had to, but almost all of them kept working so they could enjoy themselves. If I decide to retire, I want to have the choice of not having to work again. Unfortunately, working for someone else makes that goal more difficult to achieve. Thanks again for the replies.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
So . . . you obviously don't do your taxes???
You'd know an end-of-year number at least.
Mabey you are living comfortabley and that's all well and good, but it would'nt make leaving money on the table a happy occasion, nor spending more on materials than you need to . . . if I'm doing those things, I like to know about it and work to fix it. I like to know from one year to the next just how much the income is exceeding the out-go . . . I like to know what the dollar amount is I might have to invest is.
You know . . . stuff like that . . .
But to each his own . . . If not knowing suits you, so be it.
posted
Hey Sheila, I do my own taxes just to see what to expect from my accountant. Normally he comes up with the same numbers, but sometimes he does a little better. The main point of my original post is to compare numbers. I was assuming that my hourly rate for being home based would be around $40 to $50 because that's what everyone else charges. I am now happy to say that I know that I need at least $80 per hour to maintain and grow a successful sign busines from my home. And knowing this bit of information alone puts me in a much better situation than my competition because, no matter what I do, I'm going to do it right
Cheers,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Dan Antonelli: Why would you working at home have anything to do with your hourly rate? Is the quality of your work any less because it's produced in your home? Why penalize yourself for being home based.
Don't shortchange your 20 or so years of experience. You're probably 4 or 5 times faster than a newbie - why charge less- because it took you less time? It took 20 years (or whatever) to get to your level - don't minimize your depth of knowledge and experience.
AMEN
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Brian I think Sheila was referring to Bruce's last post.
Regardless, you are going about it the right way. Too many business owners in all forms of business establish an hourly rate that apparently, is either a random number that just sounds good, is based upon what others in their area charge, or they figure "so and so charges $60/hr, I can charge $45 and gain marketshare" with no consideration of their actual operating costs.
So what you have is when more people enter the same field, they're choosing their rates at random based upon the rates of other businesses that were basically chosen at random too.
It would be a mistake to compare your own rates with other businesses in this situation because they're all setting themselves up for failure.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Ooops, my mistake. I missed Bruce's comments.
Bruce, I feel these numbers are important because of several reasons. As I mentioned earlier, I would like to have the option of selling the business and not have to work again. If I am not using the proper accounting practices and only working for whatever the business gives me, my business really doesn't have any resale value in the business world. Also, I don't want to start with a handicap, having to dig myself out of a hole before I get out of the starting gates. Crunching these numbers will help me avoid that. And not that it has much to do with this discussion, but I've also learned, through this website I might add, that it's critical that your pay yourself a steady paycheck too. If you need to get a loan to finance your dreams, whether it's buying a car or your dream home, you'll probably pay a higher interest rate, if you're lucky enough to get a loan. I hae a meeting scheduled next week with a career councelor to discuss this and the other options I am exploring. Once I meet with her, I'll be able to see a little more clearly on which way I plan on going. If all goes well, it will be a combination of subcontracting my labor while starting my own business.
Cheers,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
some very valid points were made about numbers and working out of your garage or wherever.
First, there are other ways to achieve your hourly goals other than lowering costs.
How about raising prices?
Second, whether you are working out of your garage or a lofty retail space YOU ARE SELLING ADVERTISING. The value of which can't be controlled simply by bean counting. What are your signs REALLY worth to your customers (this I believe is Dan's point)?
-------------------- Denis de Leon Creative Signcrafters 125 Railroad Avenue, suite 4 Hightstown, NJ 08520 Posts: 128 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jul 2005
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Dan's right on the money. If you are experienced and capable of producing work at or above the level of the competition, why sell yourself short. Being someone who long worked out of his home, I never felt that having the lower overhead of a home based business automatically meant that I should work for a lowered rate.
This is a service business, and as long as the service is percived as professional and valuable, it should be priced that way.
It's a business, not a hobby. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hi Check, sorry cuz it has been way too long. Love the question as this question of hourly rate is on my mind right now. As you probably know we (in Canada) do our GST (value added tax) every 4 months for the most part and is always reveilling at this time of year. My gut reaction....if you feel (and see) it in your pocket and there seems to be a fair rate for your clients...what are you worried about? Alot of the price point is what the market will bear. Keep it up and get what you deserve/want! One of the things I've learned that took way too long was, that life doesn't wait, it just goes on. Sure we can all take holidays later but now might just be all there is left. Don't wait and that bit of profit will help get you there.
posted
sheila of course i do taxes. i do all the bookeeping for the year and turn into the accountant at the end of the year. there are things i count and dont count like alot of other people.
i read your post and do not understand it maybe im misreading. i report what needs to be reported. i would have to spend alot of time on the books to come up with the exact number (do you understand what i mean?) and that is something i have no interest in. my one goal at the end of every year is try and spend as much as possible and try to make the profit not much more than it was the year before.
i have met a few people in this world that were on the up and up. 100% across the board. im not here to judge, but i think that in doing so your only hurting yourself.
the fedsral govenment, IMHO is a poorly run business with no ethics. i will not feed into this institution one more dime than i have to. I will decide how to save for my retirment, NOT THEM. their method is not working for me. they take more than they give back.
at the end of the year the IRS gets a payment full that i owe them. thats the way it should be!
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Not to speak for Bruce, (he can defend himself), but I think he means that a lot of people worry about the minutia (seeing the trees, not the forest) and can easily lose track of the fact that they are leaving money on the table by running everything by the numbers. I knew a guy that used to quote each job down to the cost of each individual foam brush and sheet of paper towel required to complete a job. Although I feel this is a necessary practice every once in a while, it's going overboard to be this anal on each individual project. Time is money, and practices like this can paralyze you. We actually have a percentage that we call the "Q" (quotient) factor that covers miscellaneous expenses like that. In regards to an hourly shop rate, I use one to calculate labor, but once the job is quoted this way, I try to mark it up from there to include the actual value the job has to the customer. All businesses do this, otherwise you wouldn't be willing to buy a $3.00 bottle of water at the ball game.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Tim Whitcher: All businesses do this, otherwise you wouldn't be willing to buy a $3.00 bottle of water at the ball game.
And I saw an ad for a car dealer on TV last night offering $13,000 discounts on new vehicles. Wait a sec, if they can discount the damn thing by $13,000, that should give a clue to what kind of margins they have!
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
IF you ain't building NET WORTH then you are lying to yourself and to every one else around you.
You claim to be a business person but are just getting paid a salary. There must be some NET WORTH building going on to be a true business.
What does big bizz do when they do not make any net worth. Simple,, They close.
Net Worth = 10% - 20% return on your money at the end of the day after you pay every thing. wages, retirement included.
Retained earnings is a good measure. At the end of the year,, you have 10 grand left in the corp account. thats a good pile of NET WORTH..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
what tim said!!! im not saying we do not need to grow. im not saying every year it does not matter if you make more money....im saying who cares! if you love your business and the product you sell the money will come.
it seems that people that over analyze whats coming in, whats going out, how much percentage of the overall fiscal average have we done this week, compared to 3 years ago!!!???
basically put im not a numbers person. and if the customers are not ordering and im not making then numbers have absolutely no part for me. numbers aint going to get customers a new tactic will
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I can relate a lot to what Bruce (& Tim) are saying. I am a numbers guy... but I'm a damn busy numbers guy... so while I may not look at the minutia (wow, I don't think I ever used that word in print before ) in advance, on every job... I do look at the books after the fact, and if they say I paid all my business expenses & had enough fun with the rest to justify working for myself, instead of some other slave driver... then thats good enough for me.
I am always inspired by good business sense & don't question Dan's, & many letterheads "perceived value" concepts, or "vinyl-by-the-pound" warnings, & I appreciate the healthy reminders that a businesses net worth growth is the name of the game for good business ownership, but I also think Paul made an important point in the first reply here.
if you determine your hourly shop rate needs to be X to produce an after tax net profit of Y in a given amount of billable hours...
"The question is, can you expect to realize $83/hour? If not, you either need to increase your hours or decrease your overhead"
Notice he didn't say "raise your prices"... that's because in this reply, "can you expect to realize $83/hour?" means WILL PEOPLE PAY THAT for what you can produce in an hour. IF the answer is no... then sure, some would say give up.. go work for someone else.
Of course everyone should charge whatever the market will bear. We should all lose some bids based on price, or we'll never know if we are close to that local current market value... or lose a lot of bids if we want to be the expensive guy in the area, & have the quality (& demand) to sustain that desire.
At some point, regardless of how you crunch the numbers, there are prices that will be too high to make the sale, & in Checkers case, based on his own productivity, & his market conditions... if $83 is too high, Paul points out some viable options. Cut costs, or work harder (faster or longer hours)
I guess I'm really agreeing with Ron Carpers post too. Where others may seem to be saying if you can't be realizing all this tremendous financial growth without working long hours... GIVE UP... you're not a business man... go work for someone who is.
I disagree... I think if you love your work, & can work a little harder for the first 10 years... & keep being inspired by the good business information available here & elsewhere... it's OK to stay in the game (or to start) even if you are more sign guy, then business man.
posted
Checkers...Realistically no one makes all hours of the day account for (any) shop rate...( especially in a one or two person operation)More realistically if you figure your rate the same ...lower or even higher (doessn't much matter) What you really need to do is... gear up making EVERY hour profitable ...you will soon sceam over the top.
To set a goal of 5 hours a day seems a self fullfillig prophecy...and you'll never meet or exceed your needs.
We strive to make every hour profitable...things get in the way but at least our goal is an attainable one...(barring the days that fall on their face.)
In the old production shop days if you couldn't make the company 3 times what your wages were (every hour of the day)..you'd look up one day and not have a job. Ask the old timers here!
An advantage of living thru those days is your head still makes you think that way and fullfilling that obligation is formost on your mind!
Well it is for me anyway...Relax you couldn't have been in biz this long if you weren't at least "making wages"...but then again maybe it is time to bump yer prices! You know best.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
To quote Bruce: _______________________________________________ "...my one goal at the end of every year is try and spend as much as possible and try to make the profit not much more than it was the year before . . ." _______________________________________________
*Smack-ownself-in-forhead*
Ya mean ta say, I DON'T wanna increase my profit from year to year, while at the same time finding ways to reduce my expenditures??!!
And all in the name of not givin' Unka'Sam a penny more than he can get????!!!!
IRS be-damned, but I will honor the 'laws of the land' and pay whatever, and you can bet your sweet bippy I am NOT gonna show any losses . . .
Meanwhile, I'm gonna make as MUCH as I can for as little as I can spend.
This is not easy.
But . . . also not too hard . . . . because I make an effort to use the best materials possible . . . I can charge MORE MORE MORE for the work.
Quality STILL earns more almighty dollars, and even more benefits than greenery.
And by the way sugar, just speaking personally . . . I do everything pretty much on the up-&-up.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
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"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Having the moral character to live within the law is commendable. And what is legally right, is therefore morally right too (serve 2 masters with one stone) ...but what one may determine to be ethical is not always legally required, & what IS legally required, is not always ethical.
Corporate loopholes, & other cost saving, or tax saving business strategies may not feel "on the up-&-up" ... but where Bruce says "I have met a few people in this world that were on the up and up. 100% across the board. I'm not here to judge, but I think that in doing so, your only hurting yourself.
The Federal government, IMHO is a poorly run business with no ethics. I will not feed into this institution one more dime than I have to."
I have to agree that playing by the rules is a 2 way street. You can play nice in the sandlot & go by a basic understanding of knowing right-from-wrong... but like in business... if you start playing in the boxing ring, & different set of rules apply.. take it into the kick boxing ring... different again & then there's "ultimate fighter" rules.. not what I'd call "moral" behavior... but I would call it "wrong" to go in that ring & NOT play by those rules.
Uncle Sam wants to get EVERY penny possible out of us.. why should we not look for any legal way possible to KEEP every peny possible. As for their ethics.. if you own money from 10 years ago... you will now owe triple, if not tenfold... if they owe you money... after something like 3 years... your SOL!
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Sir, we can not debate over what we agree upon.
And please excuse me for ever questioning Bruce's integrity regarding his tax paying.
I ONLY brought that up as a resource point because HE said he did'nt have clue how much he makes a year.
However, if your in the mood for 'love' . . . we can now debate whether this thread is about ethics and taxes, or if it's still about 'HOW MUCH MONEY we can make-HOW MUCH ARE we makin'-Do we KNOW?/HOW do we know'?
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
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"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Sheila Ferrell: However, if your in the mood for 'love' . . . we can now debate whether this thread is about ethics and taxes, or...
hell... when you put it that way, I'll even quit agreeing with what we agree upon. Ilove a good debate
I think, this thread is about if we know (& how we know) how much we are (& could be) making... AND about the fine line between the legality, morality & ethics that may or may not stand between how much we are (& could be) making...
Well we half agree . . . I already said the thread was about "if we know (& how we know) how much we are (& could be) making..."
As for this . . . quote; _________________________________________________ "...the fine line between the legality, morality & ethics that may or may not stand between how much we are (& could be) making..." _________________________________________________
Well, there is little limit to what anyone can make when they are willing to simply do an honest day's work, showing no fear of sweat. In such cases there is no need to worry so much about morality and ethics.
You almost make it sound as if it's difficult to be honest in business, and moral & ethical decisions must be faced daily and heavily weighed. Most people know exactly what is good, proper and right to do . . . they just don't care to use their knowledge.
Believe it or not: for the some of the others, whether or not they will do the ethical thing is not even up for questioning. They are settled. They KNOW they will automatically do it just the way they know when their eyes open in the morning they will draw air and go brush their teeth.
By the way, on what basis did you decide morality and ethics played a part in this thread??
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awesome & accurate description from top to bottom Karyn... the ", slam, crash...oops " sequence especially, as I had my wife hang up on me at the wrong time recently. Most of the pieces went back together.. the speaker wasn't found for a week & several little electronic diodes that must not have done anythin important were still on the floor later.. but the pieces I re-assembled did result in a working phone without speaker, or audible button tones... good enough for the break room anyway... but the new 2-phone set-up cost me $100 & now it "speaks" the caller ID info at me & it won't shut up. (at least I know how to remove phone speakers now)
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