posted
How many times have you seen a sign, print ad or television graphic that improperly used inch marks where there should be quotes?
Or what about a piece of beautiful script with an ugly foot mark where an apostrophe should be?
Seems to happen way too often now that desktop publishing rules the roost. Back in the day, typesetters never made these kinds of mistakes.
It's especially galling when you see it on things you know the client paid gazillions of dollars for. I've seen major ad campaigns that were obviously typeset by rookies.
For an open quote press alt-open bracket For a close quote press alt-shift-open bracket For an apostrophe press alt-shift-close bracket For an upside down apostrophe press alt-close bracket (Any know the proper name for this upside down apostrophe?)
Let's all try to set a higher standard.
-------------------- Paul Bierce - Designer pabierce@hotmail.com www.paulbierce.com Posts: 330 | From: Dix Hills, NY | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Speaking of upside down: If you want to type,say, a quotation or exclamation in Spanish. How do you get an upside down exclamation or question mark?
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Start > Run> type Charmap. A dialogue box will pop up showing characters in their glyphs. Mouse over and left mouse button characters to magnify. Select desired character. If character available, key sequence will appear lower right. (eg. Alt+0193 returns Agrave. Alt+189 returns Aacute. Windows encoding) Memorise or copy. Past or type key sequence into application.
*Use Alt key to left of spacebar and keypad.
[ January 18, 2006, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Arthur Vanson ]
-------------------- Arthur Vanson Bucks Signs Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England arthur@buckssigns.co.uk -------------------- Posts: 805 | From: Chesham, Bucks, England | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
...What "standards". All of the "rookies" making lettring decisions have THROWN QUALITY OUT OF THE WINDOW! (Hello, what is kerning?)
These days anything goes. The only people who would ever know the difference or better are now getting OLD and dying out!...Not too far In the future, OLD ENGLISH will always be used in ALL CAPS!
posted
Use Character Map, as Arthur says. May be useful to lay out a page of the commands for the pi characters you use often (such as Spansh) and print it to tack on the wall.
In Windows you can configure your keyboard to different languages, which entails different keystrokes. Also, programs like Corel have options to convert the ' and " key to quote marks instead of feet/inches. But for most jobs, Character Map commands are most useful.
Commonest howling error I see is in misuse of the apostrophe, as in "it's" to mean the possessive case instead of "its." People in this business should pay attention to grammar.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Since 99.99% of the population not only doesn't know the difference but wouldn't care even if they did then what's the point? Is that really doing ANYTHING at all to the "quality" of the finished product? Seriously, has anybody ever picked up a sign from you and said "That's not an apostrophe, that's a foot mark!"
Acceptable letter forms have been changing since the first letter was formed. Are you saying we should still be using the long s? Should we turn the A back over so it looks like a cow skull again? Lettering and communication evolve, you've got to let it.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
What about that dyslexic guy who designed the 'TOYS-R-US' thing . . .
What all do ya press to get a backwards 'R'??
I tried all those combos you mentioned Paul . . . I could'nt make them appear here . . . but I did make the whaddya-call-it?? The blinking line-sentence-starter?? I made it 'vibrate'.
But your right about making sure these things are punctauted properly . . .
The thing is tho' . . . so many people have been doing it wrong for so long, that it looks wrong when done right . . .
I also think some of these things may be done in the name of 'creative rebellion' . . . but mostly ignorance too.
*Gya . ..y'all stepped on my toes so hard I re-read my reply, fount sum mispelt werds and fixed 'em!!
posted
Thanks Paul. (and Arthur) There are free downloadable charmaps on the net that are even nicer than the Windows one. Patrick, if we know something is wrong, it is our job to make it right. This sets us apart from the madding crowd, even if we are the only ones who know. It's the little things that matter, at least to me. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I disagree Paul. Yes it does affect the quality. What's wrong, is wrong. When it's used the wrong, you look uneducated, inexperienced, and unaware of proper use of typography.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Dan, I think you meant you disagreed with me. You are an incredibly talented designer and I love your style, however I'm sticking to my guns and disageeing with you here.
Obviously you're not seeing my point. You mention the opening credits of the Apprentice being wrong. Obviously between a designer, a board that approved the artwork, the people who review it every week, and Donald Trump NOBODY noticed or cared.
Now let me address the most elitist comment I've ever heard on this board:
quote:Originally posted by Dan Antonelli: When it's used the wrong, you look uneducated, inexperienced, and unaware of proper use of typography.
A quick look through SOTM on this board, SignCraft magazine, The Big Book of Logo's 2, and PRINT magazine have all shown me that I'm in a pretty big crown full of uneducated, inexperienced typographers. I'll see if I can dig up a couple of my old issues of Baseline and see how I hold up there. I just don't get who I'm supposed to feel uneducated & inexperienced in front of. I can only think of three people I've ever heard even mention this and two of them are in this post.
Am I to assume that every time you type information into a web-page you're using alternate symbols? You actually go through that for all the information in the body copy?
I'm not trying to attack you here, your portfolio speaks for itself. You're damn good at what you do. I'm just saying that I think you're picking over something that doesn't matter here.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Sorry to disagree Pat- but it's all about proper communication & clarity. To get the message across properly is our job, and something about which I feel we should all have pride. The fact that some people can understand the meaning of the message, when some characters are incorrect, does not make it right to use the incorrect characters in my opinion.
'Common usage' is a term used here (downunder) to include some awful grammatical usage in some dictionaries, but to me it is still wrong.... and can have the potential to lead to unnecessary misunderstandings.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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My experience is that you have to have the "Num Lock" key on for the keyboard commands to work. You also need to use the number pad on your keyboard.
I work in Spanish quite a bit and I have a sticky note on my monitor with lots of the common combinations.
I have to agree with Dan that proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation is important, no matter what "common usage" may be. Improper use of apostrophes especially curdles my blood. Because I try to project a professional image for my clients, I am a stickler for accuracy.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5101 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Fine, I'll be wrong. It won't be the first time...today. But God forbid should any of you throw a comma splice or a misspelled word in a post any time soon.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I'm with Patrick on this subject. We view it as wrong only because some high school teacher told us it was wrong 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Letters, punctuation and sentence structure all evolve over time to match the progress (or regress!) of society. Look at the @ symbol. 10 years ago no one even knew it was a symbol or where to find it on a keyboard. Today everybody under 35 knows about it and a whole lot of over 35s can locate it on a keyboard...even if we can't type!
I got a quote request today from a company named Ever|world. Yes...I typed it right. What kind of name is that! Makes no sense to me but the character is on my keyboard. Why not use it to make there communications stand out?
You can stick our head in the sand and say that is not proper punctuation and communications or we can embrace it and recognize these changes as the way of the future.
I'll go back to watching TV now so I don't have to think about this punctuation stuff!
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I guess I'll step up to plate & apply the KISS principle - Keep it simple stupid - today's environment of text messaging/'net/instant communications - less is more - punctuation rules be damned! I usually day-dreamed/watched birds in Mrs. Graves English class anyway - -when I wouldn't sleepin . . .but we can still communicate - cain't we????
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
We must keep some rules of grammer, or at least Style as it's called in the lettering trades, so that we will be READ. Maybe the teeming masses don't care about apostrophes and such. They don't know why there are inconsistencies, but they do know there are inconsistencies. Therefore, overall reading comprehension is dumbing down like a Tower of Babel.
100 years ago a London critic suggested that maybe universal literacy wasn't such a good idea. Try reading some Victorian Purple Prose and see what you think.
If you practise the most common rules, then most people will understand you, whether they themselves use the rules or not.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
When I'm typing something just to be saying something I often hit the ; instead of the ' in won'ts and don'ts and the like. Sometimes I go beack and fix 'em, sometimes I don;t.
If I'm doing a sign, which will be there for years to come, I try to be very accurate. I think it's a pride thing. If I know it's wrong- it will eat at me if I don't fix it. (just fixed another one) If I don't know it's wrong, well, ignorance is bliss.
There is a seriff on a building about 70' up, which is narrower than the others. When my painter came down, I pointed it out to her. I could tell by the look on her face she didn;t want to go up and fix it. I said, well it's yours, if you can live with it. She lived with it. Now, I pass it every morning and it just sits there waiting for me to one day go up and fix it. Maybe when it's time for a repaint.
I think we all have our own standards, and that's not a bad thing.
posted
Uhhhh... has anyone actually tried to read the closed captioning when they watch TV?
My Lord I am so glad I'm not deaf! I would be completely lost! When I'm at the gym huffing away at my cardio, sometimes I will focus in on the closed captioning just to take my focus off my burning legs. 95% of the time I can't make out what they're trying to say because it's like someone is just picking letters at random hoping to match whatever sound the commentator is forming. One morning I started reading the closed captioning out loud just to be goofy. It's always the same group of people there so we kinda know each other, didn't take long before others chimed in and now we take turns. It's pretty damn funny. Gotta find some way to have fun at the gym.
Just think...
Somehow in this crazy world we went from:
Romeo, Romeo, wherefor art thou, Romeo?
to:
WR R U DG? (DG=dawg)
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I hope I didn't come across an a know-it-all. At the end of the day, clearly, it doesn't make too much of a difference. I happen to have been taught the proper way to show an apostrophe, and when I see it used incorrectly, it makes me think less of the designer. Does 99% of the puplic know that it's used improperly? No, probably not. But coming from someone who was educated in graphic design and was taught the right way, it's a glaring error for that person.
Donna, regarding double spaces. As you said, you do not double space in any form of typeset communications, ie. brochures, etc. It's a single space. However, writers usually always double space. When we lay out our newsletters here (we do 40 per year, about 16 pages each) the first thing we do is open their Word docs and do a 'find/change' to remove the double space after periods, and replace with single, before dropping into Quark.
I guess, I'm not sure why we wouldn't want to just use the correct appostrophe? One is an inch or foot mark, and the others are correct apostrophes. Inch marks be damned!
Theres gotta be a Bob Parsons cartoon in here somewhere
[ January 19, 2006, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Dan Antonelli ]
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Double spacing between sentences: Not necessary in word-processing, because kerning and wordspacing are flexible. Double spacing comes from manual typewriters where letters were mono-spaced. Manual typewriters ruled for many decades, so that habit lingers.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I think the key word being debated is "proper"...
Dan makes an execellent point in that using the improper forms futher misdirects and misinforms people. After a while, it becomes the standard or accepted more widely, though not true to the proper usage.
Pat also makes a valid point. There are times when artistic flair or license is invovled...or sometimes just laziness...and someone "twists" a character for whatever reason.
The real bottom line, IMHO, is the asthetics. If certain characters fit well within the overall design, though not "properly" used, it can be effective. The backwards "r" in the toys-R-us is well recognized, thus effective, but not "proper" letter form. Of course, there's an abundance of sign shops and design studios out there who try to trick out letterforms and do so, not because it is effective, but just a trick. Not too many do it well without knowledge of letterforms and the trick doesn't work.
The real key still lies in the overall design and whether it retains an asthetic harmony.
My 2 pesos... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
If it were all that important, don't you think they would have made the default for the " & 'keys to be a quote mark and apostrophe? I'm sure they're use for those a lot more than inch and foot marks. I've been in the business for 30 years and I never new there was a differance. Maybe that's just because computers are a rather new tool. All said and done, I'm going to have to side with Patrick. But now I'm going to have to see what the fuss is all about.
Dan
-------------------- Dan Marquis Marquis Signs Lewiston, Maine dan@marquissigns.com Posts: 118 | From: Lewiston, Maine, USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Dan brings up an interesting point. The ' and ", why would they be available as a default on a keyboard?!? Who talks inches and feet as a general rule all day long when typesetting something? Interesting...
Bruce, that was a GREAT explaination for why the double spacing disappeared. Thanks!
quote:Originally posted by Dan Marquis: If it were all that important, don't you think they would have made the default for the " & 'keys to be a quote mark and apostrophe?
Dan
For years now, many programs have included a function I'll generically refer to as "Smart Quotes". This feature automatically converts inch marks into quote marks without the user having to do the special keystrokes.
I guess the reason computer keyboards don't have a single stroke for quotes and apostrophes is due to the legacy of the typewriter.
-------------------- Paul Bierce - Designer pabierce@hotmail.com www.paulbierce.com Posts: 330 | From: Dix Hills, NY | Registered: Jan 2005
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