posted
That header line was a bit too dramatic and not entirely accurate, but it hints at my question.
I hear how much Vinyl and the plotter affected the sign industry. Some believe for the better, and some believe for the worse. Anybody can pick a plotter & computer and become a sign maker. Hand lettering has become a niche now for some people, a skill not many have.
I don't do a huge amount of dimensional work. I have started purposefully doing more though. I do this partly for the enjoyment of simply working with my hands and creating more complex work, and partly because I can charge a lot more for that complex work because it is appreciated as a hand skill: not something a computer can just spit out (like how people think our plotters do all the work)
How do you think these CNC routers will affect us all. Will they become the plotter of the dimensional world? For better or worse? Obviously there are benefits to being able to layout a project once and hit "GO" and a machine will carve out, fairly finished, 20 of the same intricately designed pieces if you want. Are we losing anything though? Will they eventually be looked at as the thing doing all the work and we just hit "GO".
I like the CNC routers. Boy, the things it can do with the right tuning. But I think we will lose a little "craftsmanship" to them. I like knowing it was done by hand. I like doing it by hand. Sure, it will eventually, if it isn't already, be more profitable to do it with the machine. Profit motivates away from hand skill towards machine skill. At least it will still require great design to make the machine sing.
What do you think?
-------------------- Phil Steffen, 29 Van Rensselaer St City of Saratoga Springs DPW Saratoga Springs NY 12866 Posts: 563 | From: beautiful Saratoga Springs NY | Registered: Aug 2001
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Plotters DID NOT kill Hand Lettering. In my many travels I have talked to many Sign Makers that do not even own a computer/plotter. Will routers take out hand carving....simple answer...NO.
Someone, somewhere, somehow, will always be filling the custom niche. More people will make more dimensional signs with routers. They will not have to come from a carving background, or even a creative background....they just know how to read the directions to set-up the thing.
It's just like the old school sign painters that are concentrating on the look, the feel, the punctuation of a good snappy sign layout.....this is why we spell wrong, or clean brushes in coffee cups.
Keep on keepin on Wisconsin Fhill!
-------------------- Mike Meyer Sign Painter 189 1st Ave n P.O. Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956
We are not selling, we are staying here in Mazeppa....we cannot re-create what we have here....not in another lifetime! SO Here we are!!!!!!!
posted
Ask this question when Joe Chislowski is in earshot and be prepared for a three hour seminar... (then again, ask Joe anything and get comfortable)
I think our friend Sawatsky is coming as close as anybody could. Couple his envelope-pushing with the repeatability factor and you've definitely got a formidable force there. It won't actually "kill" carving, but I agree it will impact it in the same ways plotters did hand lettering. Those that remain in the game better be good!
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Mike, I tried to word it carefully. I retracted my header sentence in the first paragraph. It was for emphasis.(..and it's too hot out here in New York. In the 40's this week. I miss going out in the cold and having all my nosehairs freeze tight. That's good old Wisconsin winters)
I did have the priviledge to attend a Joe C meet once. I learned quite a bit. I don't know if his fine art and mirror frame work would be affected by the CNC, but your garden variety mailbox or address signs sure could...or at least I think they could.
-------------------- Phil Steffen, 29 Van Rensselaer St City of Saratoga Springs DPW Saratoga Springs NY 12866 Posts: 563 | From: beautiful Saratoga Springs NY | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Maybe not kill, but you'll have to look a lot harder to find someone to do some handcarving. When the plotters came along and replaced my hand lettering I studied carving, took a workshop and started doing some carved signs. Then the CNC came along and once again a machine replaced me. That's my choice, I could still be hand lettering and hand carving. I look at my business as a sign maker, visual communications etc not swinging a brush or a chisel.
posted
A CNC router absolutely won't kill hand carving in our shop. And as you know well I LOVE my MultiCam.
It will do the opposite actually. It does the hard, labor intensive jobs in record time, leaving us to do the fun stuff.
The router is an extension of what we do by hand. I've been pushing the limits with our machine, seeing just what it can do. In a situation where repeatability is necessary it can't be beat.
I would wonder why someone would hand carve beveled letters (for instance) when they can have a machine do it. If you wanted tool marks that were different on each letter I would add them later BY HAND.
But take the work Joe does... a machine simply can't to THAT. It might be able to help him rough out a piece... but I would suspect the programing would take longer than doing it by hand.
I look at my router in a different light. Let me explain...
To do my normal work I rely on employees to turn my visons into reality. I like to get my hands dirty, but on bigger jobs there are occasions when good sized pieces are turned out which I don't even touch. In the end they look pretty much what I designed and they fit seamelssly into the larger finished product.
Our router does exactly the same thing... I look at it as a skilled employee which will turn out pieces in the same way. Only with the router I personally have more control because the machine will turn out EXACTLY what I design. Almost every piece that comes off the machine has some handwork added before painting... some a lot.
There will be many days when the router will sit idle while we do hand made stuff or finish pieces turned out on the machine... other days we will have the machine do the work for us... whatever works is fine with me.
The router is just a tool which can only do what we tell it to. I have no intention of sitting at my computer typing fonts into it and then have the machnine crank the work out. Quite the opposite.
Instead I hand design each piece, drawing (by hand), scanning and then vectorizing. The texture maps are carefully planned before applying as bitmaps. I build the files much like I build a hand wrought piece. Its not a mattter of turning the production handle, believe me.
Once the piece is routed It is then finished by hand with final textures and details added. Painting is ALL done by hand... we don't even spray for a bruch adds magic to a piece like only a brush can.
In our shop we have discussed at length the pitfalls of having a router in our shop. One of our concerns is putting ourselves in a market where the guy down the street has a router and we compete with him based on price. I DON'T want to go there. And I won't.
That's why we are pushing SO hard to see what this router is capable of to be WAY out in front of the pack. If we use the router COMBINED with our hand skills I believe we can do things no other shop can do.
Will routers kill the dimensional sign industry... only for those who want to take the easy way. Only for those who value their work only on a time and material basis.
I choose to embrace modern tools and technology adding them to our old world hand skills. In the process we can do some wonderful work and make money at it too. With the modern technology we can expand our skills and art we produce.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8739 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Right. Plotters did not, and never will, kill hand-lettering.
(I know you said 'if' Phillip.)
As far as I'm concerned, I get really exasperated at the idea that machinery can make people assume hand-work is obsolete. It only increases it's value.
Did fast-fooders obliterate the home-cookin' joints?? Why, no.
Look at furniture building. Did skil-saws, drills, table saws, ect, ect make hand-crafted furniture undesirable?? It only increased the value of the hand-made item.
Keeping with the furniture analogy, to the contrary, in may cases, the robotic machinery of many furniture plants is only good for QUANTITY - NOT QUALITY. Quality control is often seriously compromised for production. ie; *'quicky-sticky shops' There's a huge difference in making money on quantity and earning money for quality, and never assume that just because a machine can do more, and do it faster, it automatically means 'better', 'Cause it sure don't.
the bottom line is, make sure that no matter what equipment you own, your are producing the highest quality product you can.
Once you make the compromise for volumn BEFORE quality, you are no better than any 'joe-wino-paint-a-sign-for-a-bottle-of-wine'.
There IS the ability to do both: quantity AND quality. But by and large, even then, 'limited editions' of anything are more valuable.
Meanwhile, there will always be people who want and are willing to pay for something uniquely hand-made.
*footnote: I'm passionate about this subject. I intend no disrespect to vinyl-in-moments only shops. Just the ones who spit out cookie-cutter junk, who by the way, I DO appreciate as a place to send cheap customers to.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
The digital printer will eventually virtually replace hand lettering, once it's cheaper, easier, and longer lasting. Cncs will seriously affect hand carving once the equipment is cheaper and the software is cheaper and easier to use. You don't see too many carraige makers around, do ya?
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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The more they produce, the more people want a carved sign. Period!
The greater the demand.....more work for me!!!
AND....I can charge router prices without the overhead. BUT I have to produce as a production carver (remember "the way they used to..")
I can also do things that sign shop routers can't. (show me one of Dan's pieces with an undercut)
What will be gone is the carving TRADE. IMHO people will borrow $100,000 to pay for technology that, in most cases they could have used to pay themselves for the time it takes to learn to carve....and believe me, they would be putting a lot of money in the bank long before the 100 grand is gone. But I don't think anyone will. It's too hard and it takes too much time. Sorry, no easy way outa this one. Get yourself a multi cam now.....everyone else is.
So, in brief,I'm going to work real hard at keeping up with my growing sign business and there will be one fewer folks carving at the meets.
The LAST Chisel Jam is comming up...I'm not expecting a big crowd.
BTW, Thanks for asking.
Joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
No Tim, but those who want a real horse-drawn carriage will pay top dollar to have one hand-made by a real craftsman. Lots of these craftsman are as busy as they wanna be.
Many horse & ranch owners, and historians buy such carriages all the time.
Think outside the box of 'mass production'.
And to be sure the economy plays a big part in this. Only the well-to-do, or people with different tastes go for 'the unique' to be sure. But I promise you if the economy lags for the upper and upper-middle classes to buy and sell goods, it'll be laggin' for the lesser-priced mass-produced things as well.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
What's missing in this discussion is what CNC routers do that most hand-carvers don't. Examples of this are: 1. Raised prismatic lettering - I have only ever known of one hand-carver who does this on a regular basis (Jim Pritchard in New Hampshire.) I'm not talking about cutting out individual letters and adhering to a panel, I mean carving away the background to let the letters stand in relief, then carving the letter faces. It can be done, but it's so incredibly time-consuming that I can't see making it work, time-wise.
2. Very small lettering. I recently sent a job out to a router - it required copy carved at less than 1" high, upper and lower case, in mahogany. Sure, I can do it - but why? It would take as long and carving 4" tall letters, but I'm not going to make as much per letter.
3. Accurately fitted letters, panels, appliques, etc. The router lets a good designer produce dimensional signs that use multiple levels of graphic elements, which are assembled like a jigsaw puzzle, with snug, accurate fit that's virtually impossible by hand.
Like plotters, a router is only as good as the designer who operates it. The knuckleheads who expect any machine to teach them how to design, without taking the time to actually study or practice or learn anything, will produce the same level of junk as the people who believed buying a 4b, without ever knowing which end of a brush gets wet, was a shortcut into the sign biz. The results speak for themselves.
Look around. When plotters came out, they were purchased by two kinds of people - experienced sign painters who used them to do the mindless grunt work (those infamous 1/2" helvetica pool-rules signs), and those who thought they were going to make a quick buck by undercutting prices. Twenty years and a digital revolution later, the sign painters who studied design and applied their skills to producing quality work (think of someone like David Butler) are doing amazing things with plotters and printers - while the hacks are still cranking out vynull trash and selling it by the pound.
Like plotters, CNC routers will be operated by the same two kinds of people. Which kind are YOU going to be?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Tim, perhaps I'm an odditty, but I've built 1 or 2 carriages a year for the past 20+ years for customers, as well as painted, lined & scrolled 100s of them. There is a small market, and some of that demands (or requests) a top, unbeatable, high class job. I'm winding out of the building these days as supply of good timber is time consuming, & signwriting is easier, and I'd like to make myself a few carriages (so far I've done none for ourselves)
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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2D or 2.5D is simple knock-out junk and that market could get flooded easily.
True 3D is a whole other story though and in most cases trying to setup a single sign in software before milling will cost more in time than you could ever get for it. The true 3D learning curve plus the complications that enter the situation when it gets to the CNC equipment are nothing short of mind-melting frustration. You'd need to do either large stuff like Dan has or production runs of repeated designs to make it worthwhile.
Even so, at some point even that market will get competitive and prices will have to drop or you will have to set yourself apart once again.
Just look at CNC machine shops. Everyone knows if you have a one-off or prototype part to make the best way to get it is on a manual mill, or a manual unit with an onboard control center. If you have a production part to make, it's off to a $2 MILLION 5 axis CNC mill. Believe it or not, these $2 Million CNC mills are a dime a dozen, everyone has one, the CNC/Billet market is very competitive. I mean, you've got shops running million dollar units to produce $35 billet aluminum logos for "custom" car idiots.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Grandpa, every time you open your mouth on here I like you more and more. I think the Queen should knight you!!
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Joe's right I think. CNC routers have increased the demand for "carved" signs, just like digital imaging has expanded the demand for full color illustrated stuff. There is always a market for highly skilled artisans that can offer something "a little better", unique or personal that only hand work can produce. However that comes down to marketing yourself...I think Kelly's marketing research might just help us all there. Hey Joe long time no see...I've missed "Hello Friends"...hope all is well with you.
posted
I think CNC's will affect carving in the same way that plotters affected hand lettering, but not to the extent plotters have. Just based on CNC's price point and the knowledge required will limit a lot of "would be's" from doing it. It won't kill hand carving, in fact, I think as some here have stated it will create more demand for product overall therefore quality hand carvers will benifit just as quality hand letterers have. Ulitmately it comes down to the quality of the "artist" not the tool. My 2.
quote:Originally posted by Joe Rees: Ask this question when Joe Chislowski is in earshot and be prepared for a three hour seminar... (then again, ask Joe anything and get comfortable)
I think our friend Sawatsky is coming as close as anybody could. Couple his envelope-pushing with the repeatability factor and you've definitely got a formidable force there. It won't actually "kill" carving, but I agree it will impact it in the same ways plotters did hand lettering. Those that remain in the game better be good!
You beat me to it, Joe! LOL!
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2274 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
I see the industry changes are going to be greater than you think.
Has the Plotter replaced HandLettering...YES. Why because of waste products...Not only in our shops but as a by-Product in manufacturing and landfills.
Yes you say that Vinyl creates even more landfill waste and that is true. But at the moment it is a safer mass to bury or burn then Oils..Solvents and Paints No Cespool leaking into the earth.
Now onto the CNC.. Most companies these days are carving or cutting HDU's or plastics...More worries about the landfill areas around us!
I see in the near future the use of membrane sign skins on storefronts and even vehicles that will be "Plug and Play" with the ComputerGraphics needed for that location.
Customer moves out and one moves in! Just a matter of reprogramming the artwork needed.
Vehicles needs month to month changes because of new advertising......Just Plug and Play!
Just think of the new areas of advertising you can create without BioHazard wastes going on behind it! The Artwork is still from thought to process like any other way to display Art or Signage.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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Same thing that 1" high Helvetica in vinyl did for sign painter's trying to letter at that size. Tedious and not gratifying. Why not use the vinyl? You can spend more time on the handwork and dress it up more then.
Dan has it exactly right - and Cam too. A router does the crap work. And Joe C. (long time no speak!!), Dan's machine won't do an undercut - but Dan will after the machine roughs it out. He uses that tool the right way. (Damn him!!!)
Hand work - lettering or carving - will always command an audience - though limited, but with much deeper pockets than "average Joe". Less work - charge more. Hmmm. . . . sounds good.
Great discussion - good post!!
[ January 10, 2006, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
A gun in the wrong hand kills. A gun in the wright hand protects. It all comes full circle. That which kills at first, protects after. Any modern tech in the right hands is a tool to make the future, in the wrong hands it can ruin the future. I personally don't care for change. But I have a plotter now and would love to have a cnc. You use it to add to your base. If you have learned from the past, you can add the new to your notebook. Lets face it, we are not creating air looms on everyjob we do. Money is what makes the world go round. If you can produce your product in a faster way and still get the effect that you are looking for, than why fight it.
-------------------- Snow's Sign Works 865-908-0076 snowman@planetc.com www.snowsigns.com
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... Posts: 1640 | From: Sevierville, TN | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
My take on it: (and I didn't read the above replies)
I am seeing many WOODWORKERS getting CNC routers and they are doing signs as well.
We have been making monument signs, on a wholesale level for sign shops in the Midwest...but... the dealer who is selling the most of our products is not a sign shop....
HE IS A WOOD WORKER with a CNC Shopbot.
The competition could get very strong as these guys start picking up sign work. They chit chat on Shopbot's forum and other wood working forums about signs they can make. And a lot of these guys are skilled wood carvers.
That's my take on it for now!
Edit:
The other shops that are starting to take a look a CNC routers are LARGE FORMAT DIGITAL PRINTERS.
There is a growing demand to put large format digital prints on thick foam and then contour cut the shape. These routers are $140K with electric eye positioning. They are not going to hurt the wood carvers, but they will knock out huge profits in the POP Display side of the sign industry.
[ January 10, 2006, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
The CNC is best for doing multiples of the same thing. Many hand carvers can crank out a sign faster than I can prepare files and run the machine. But if you want 5 signs the router is better.
ernie
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1701 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Ill tell you one thing the cnc replaced for me. The dang jigsaw! This guy that owns a woodshop has this big brusier of a cnc, and he cuts all my panels for me from MDO that he stocks. I just send him a dxf file, and go pick it up. The edges are smooth as heck and the cuts are perfect. I buried my jigsaw in the backyard.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Cieslowski: down time makes no money fer them..so a little is better than nothin.
Bingo - the problem in a nutshell. CNC by the pound. Who wants to compete in that market? For that very reason I made up my mind a long time ago that when the day ever comes for me to get one, it must NOT be used for wholesale or knockout 'busy' work.
That's why I will probably never own one till either I become wealthy enough, or until they become cheap enough, that I can let that sucka sit there and NOT make a dime till I'm ready to use it again.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I'm with you in this one. Although many folks around have heard we have one and want me to do wholesale work I politely decline it.
The reality is that if I charge our creative work out appropriately the machine CAN pay its way (and mine too). I'm determined not to use our invested dollars to make my competition look good.
The rest of the time it can happily sit idle without difficulty. I WILL NOT drive the cost of routing down in my market area by simply turning over dollars and spinning my wheels.
Instead I use our router to ENHANCE what we do and to ADD to our abilities.... not diminish them.
-grampa dan
[ January 11, 2006, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8739 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Dan, your work is a perfect example of utilizing a tool for custom work. And even if you did mass produce in quantity, they would also be high quality, altho' I don't see you ever going into that kind of rote 'factory-like' production.
It's also been reiterated over and over here, that the same thing is true of many of those who own plotters and know how to use them to 'customize' rather than 'cookie-cut'.
So the bottom line still remains that high-quality, hand-crafted, custom work will always be in demand regardless of the tools used to achieve that end.
And, in case the power goes out, or the computer crashes, or the customer insists, it's best to know how to do both.
posted
I said "virtually replace", not absolutely replace. I know of one hand painter within a 50 mile radius of our shop, and he's semi-retired. That's not a slam on anyone, but a fact. Vinyl jockies will be history in 20 years.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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