I'm sure we all have been asked to donate signs of all sizes and price ranges. As a sole proprietor, I cannot afford some of the large request. I have given signwork for free and at large discounts to several local organizations. The request seem to be coming in more frequent and for larger amounts.
How do you tackfully decline some of these request? I know most of those asking for free signs feel all businesses are rich and should donate to everything. I try to do what I can, but I will certainly go under if I meet every request.
Some people are sincere with their request, but one I experienced last summer actually went to my part time employee (college kid) and asked her to design a logo and make a "aluminum lighted sign" for his business. He offered to pay her $700 for both. When she pointed out that she worked for me, he told her they should just leave me out of it. I have been asked several times by this man's wife for free, donated signwork, which I did.
Since this happened, and the fact all these donations are really adding up financially, I need to find a way to politely decline some of the bigger request.
I'm just wondering how others handle the request for free signs and donations when they are larger than a sign shop can handle.
Your advice is greatly appreciated.
Pam
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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"I am sorry that I cannot help you at this time. I only donate to one worthy cause per year and that slot has already been filled."
"I am sorry, but I no longer donate signs. However, I can sell them to you at a 15% discount. Cash in advance, of course."
"NO!" (slam phone)
"Since materials are not free for me, I cannot give out free signs to you."
"So can I get it in writing that you are going to _________________ (fix my car, furnace, etc. fill in the blank) if I donate a 3X8 banner?"
Just random thoughts. I get a lot of these calls too. I pick and choose to whom I donate (usually the volunteer fire fighters because they never ask me to) This fall I had a soccer mom from the PTO tell me about the "great tax write-off" I'd get for donating signs to the school fundraiser.
I would sure as hell NEVER donate anything to your aforementioned shyster and his wife!
Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I use a grant system (just started). I give away $400 a month in discounts, then when I quote a job for a non-profit, I quote full price and give them the option of "applying for a grant" thru me. No more that $400 off a job, no more that a 50% discount, and that money will be spread out amoungst everyone who wants me to do a sign for that month. That way they must plan ahead, get a quote and I get to choose who I think is worthy of my donation. Makes for a great press release also. I get to control who I give to, spead it out over the year and they get to see what a sign really cost, no more "knock this out in your spare time because it doesn't cost you anything".
-------------------- Carper's Signs 594 Union School Rd. Mount Joy, PA 17552 carpersign@earthlink.net Posts: 157 | From: Lancaster, PA, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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Pam , this is a senario i find myself in quite often. For over 21 years now we have a reputation with ALL the local non-profits as "easy prey" for free signs. While my website states we give ( or ie..."allow" ) a 10% discount to all local non-profits it does promote goodwill and the local vinyl & hand capable "companys" generally don't participate in the Good SIGN-maritan philosophy. While we are too busy most of the time to donate FREE signs or banners ,( there the lowest & luckily favorite choice of amateur marketeers ), there are a few exceptions. First & ALLWAYS we write an invoice for them & ourselves-for our taxes, and we get all the materials money-period. Second ,we ask if this is a one-time event or annual ? Since the dates are the only change,usually, we only have to "fix" this part of the sign annually. Third, is this going to be a visible or high-profile event ? is it worth doing for us. Because we always put donated or courtesy of markzsigns.com VERY visible on the sign so everyone knows who did it-including our competition ! So, the criteria of who we can help,when we can help, why we can help & what's the best for us is a "formula" for making the decision we face often. Especially since non-profits have realized the value on signage as opposed to paying for the print media expenses-plus were re-usable marketing !
One more important item, if they are holding a gala ,crab feast, blah blah, i have no problem asking & even getting annual tickets to the event or function. We have several annual big events here in Calvert, they got me to the banners/signs years ago....they just need the date/time changed annually-but my website is still on them ! One event cost's about $180. for a pair of tickets to a popular cancer gala,attended by a lot of local business's,for the last several years all i do is change the dates on 5 or 6 banners 1 They got me 7 years ago...so i figure i'm gettin' them ! fair is fair huh ? Sam Walton of Wal-Mart said once,"half the $$ i spend on advertising is a waste- i just don't know what 1/2 "!
-------------------- mark zilliox mark z signs 8425 pushaw station rd. owings md. 20736 301-855-5407 thezs@earthlink.net http://www.markzsigns.com Posts: 348 | From: maryland | Registered: May 2003
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"Let me check, no , sorry, I don't have any of those left in stock, but I can do you a good deal on ... what were you thinking of?"
(On the other hand I'll do a great deal on purple & mission brown at the moment, I just happen to have lots of both in front of me...)
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ian, as a business owner,your right to handle the caller is justified. However, if they sound reasonable & 1/2 way polite i'll 2 least give them a minute-that's why i have my cordless headset so i can continue making $$ without those calls wasting our shop time. Because, a lot of times the caller is either, is just a volunteer on a committe who may OWN or WORK in a company that may need your services down-the-road. Also,even if we have the peroggative to cut them off, some peoplewill possibly take it as their the "victim" & Signs by Ian is a bunch or !#%$##!@!!! to his associates-even though we know Ian is quite a talented & charming fella ( FartSmeller as Dan says ).And business people have friends who have friends who have friends who ask for free signs now & again ! just airing my experience. no judging here Ian ! have a GoOD Day-i goota go do a free sign-just kiddin'. Zman
-------------------- mark zilliox mark z signs 8425 pushaw station rd. owings md. 20736 301-855-5407 thezs@earthlink.net http://www.markzsigns.com Posts: 348 | From: maryland | Registered: May 2003
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If I can't afford to make the donation, I just say that. Otherwise I tell them what I can afford to donate toward their cause or function.
As far as the employee getting hit on, one of our employees was recently asked by a neighbor to route a sign for them and Roy mentioned it to me. I reminded him of the agreement we had almost ten years ago when I hired him that he not use what he learns in my shop for ther purposes than promoting our business while employed by us and that if he chose to do that job his employment here is terminated.
He decided to continue working here and just told the neighbor that doing sign work on the side violated his agreement with me.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6722 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have never ever gotten work from donations. I used to give all I could until I found out I was the ONLY one giving 100% free. And, who was doing their banners and signage?? Wasn't me.. They were using some other "big" company in another town. SHEESH...
The answer is... I already gave out my budget limits.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Our Fire Department wanted a new Pick Up lettered. I was at the Monthly Fire Meeting discussing the truck when a fireman stands up and says, "you are an ex fireman her, you should donate the lettering". I turned in my chair and said, "I'll tell you what. You donate your next weeks paycheck to the Fire Dept. and I'll donate the lettering. How's that!".
I got paid!
I agree with Rick on the employee thing!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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"First & ALLWAYS we write an invoice for them & ourselves-for our taxes,"
How does that work? I understood that if I donate something like a banner I can't deduct the "market" value, only my cost, which means a record of the transaction is irrelevant as far as taxes go. The cost is already a business expense. In other words if I donate a banner that's worth $500 I can't deduct $500 from my taxes only the cost of the banner, vinyl lettering and labor.
As for declining to donate I do it all the time, politely. I choose if and who I want to donate to.
posted
We donate all the time but we are selective and give 100% on some things, a percentage on others and make small signs (with a quote) that we give for auctions. Whatever you do DON'T give a gift certificate! We did that one time and it was a nightmare! Who ever bid on the gift certificate (it had a specific dollar amount) had NO CLUE what that entitled them to and they wanted a 4X8' on an 18"X24" budget! Here we are trying to explain that yes, they did buy a $ amount but here is what you might GET for that amount...too much hassle! One thing we tried for a couple years that worked rather well was the "Wall of Donations". I wrote every donation up just like a regular invoice and tacked it on the wall behind my desk. Whenever I was asked for another donation, I would point to the wall and say, "THAT is what we have donated to so far this year. We really haven't budgeted anymore money for donations this year. Sorry. Maybe next year." You haven't told them no but you can get out of alot of the things you don't feel you NEED to donate to.
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Unless it is something very small and I choose to donate it myself, after it is made, I don't do free signs. I've done and continue to do my share of voluntering, I'll make cash donations or donate shopmade items as prizes for raffles. I'll donate my time to work at functions, I may even give them a charitable discount. I make signs for a business, it is means of support. There is a clear line there and I keep it that way. Plain and simple, "I don't do free signs." I think if you are polite and explain how you can't afford to play favorites, most reasonable people can completely understand. The ones who can't understand that are the ones you want to tick off.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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The best advice I've ever received about a non-profit wanting discounts or free stuff was rather simple....tell them that THEY are a non-profit organization, you are a FOR-profit business.
-------------------- Keith Myers SignOn Enterprises 222 E. 3rd St Burkburnett, TX 76354 940-569-3000 keith@signonsigns.com www.SignOnSigns.com Posts: 149 | From: Burkburnett, Texas | Registered: Sep 2004
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To quote Kenny Rogers: DON'T GIVE AWAY YOUR CRAFT. It makes sense, when you think about it. Why cheapen what you do, especially for something you didn't care enough to donate cash to? You want to support your local animal shelter don't do free signs, show up and scoop poop. Support Girl Scouts, help them sell cookies.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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The only time labor can be written off is when you actually have an employee do the work. If you are a "one man" shop, you can not write the labor off.
My accoutant told me this. I think that law sucks but it is the tax code.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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One thing I've learned for sure about donating free stuff. What you are guaranteed to get back from it is more requests for free stuff, and not so much paying work.
Your name gets added to a "sucker" list and not necessarily a "vendor" list.
Unfortunately, "Free" just doesn't seem to get appreciated.
~nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Hi Pam, my former partner in the business was a retired man and he loved to do stuff for free, didn't matter to him if he didn't make any money on it. Well, let me tell you it wasn't easy taking over the business from him. I had to learn to say no, and guess what, the requests have almost ceased now. The more you do for free, the more requests you will get. Start saying no, and you will get much less of it. I do give discounts to certain organizations that I wish to support, but I always write the full amount on the invoice too, so they will see what value they are actually getting. Sometimes I even give away small signs, but always because I choose to, not because I was asked to do so.
posted
Several years ago when my father was running the company, we donated $1500 worth of free signage. After the work was done, Dad asked about putting up a small sign (24x18 coro)with our company name on it to put out at the 9th or 18th hole. We were given a flat "no". Only those who give a cash donation of $500 were permitted. Needless to say, we gave them the opportunity to take their business elsewhere the following year.
Since I've been put in charge of handling these kinds of situations, I've offered a substantial discount but never free. Doing so has weeded out the PITAs.
If your work isn't worth anything to you, its certainly not going to be worth anything to them. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
posted
I've donated very little. What I have donated has been MY choice, not because someone called begging me to give them something for free. My 1 stipulation when I do donate is that they don't tell anyone that I donated it. I totally believe there is a 'get free stuff here' list that the non-profits share. That's 1 list I don't need to be a part of.
I like the idea of giving them an invoice for the full amount, less some discount. Too often you get people who think you can just make something in your free time with free materials, so what you've donated isn't worth anything.
As for the SOB who went to your employee & wanted you kept out of getting free signs, neither he nor his wife would be welcome in my shop anymore and sure as hell would never get anything free from me again.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I wonder if hookers get as many requests for freebees, as sign shops get for "donations"? Kinda the same thing, isn't it? Maybe the hookers get more respect?
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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I do all the free stuff I can! It makes me feel warm and fuzzy when I do it. Which really helps when I go to my cardboard box under the bridge when I leave at night.
If it don't pay, I don't play.
-------------------- Snow's Sign Works 865-908-0076 snowman@planetc.com www.snowsigns.com
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... Posts: 1640 | From: Sevierville, TN | Registered: Jul 2005
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Actually Mike, the analogy remains much the same.Persons attempting to solicit "donated signs" often do so by attempting to elicit pity for the fact that their non-profit, charitable entity has no money to pay for things like signs....so we should agree to do them for them, out of a sense of PITY.
I still don't see any hooker willing to provide a freebee, out of a sense of pity. Call them what you may, they are shrewd businesswomen.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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Also, if you're a single-income-working-mom, USE it to your advantage. Well hey, who CAN'T understand your position? Your little 'birds' are holdin' their mouths open and THEY come first.
With kids, most all my donations went/go to their things. Backdrops for prom when my oldest was in high school, stuff for teachers, and Em's school now, as well as her YMCA basketball team.
Sometimes I tell customers to come back in a few years when I'm done doing stuff for all that.
I also do some things for my church and churches where friends go, so I just have to tell everyone else, I'm maxed out, sorry.
If it's a cause that your really, really into, offering to do the work for material costs is a great way to go. Hope you don't get a 'guilt-slingin' beggar.
I think it's the most utter rudeness and distasteful behaviour when a person asking for a donation chokes on this great offer and then tries to make me feel guilty, which I have actually had a happen a time or two. After I overcome the shocked look on my face my reply is: 'Well ask around, and come back if you can't find it at a better price.'
Translation: 'You can go ask your donation-situation elsewhere and if you find it any cheaper, go for it. If you can't, you may humbley return here and we'll start over with a more appreciative attitude on your part.'
By the way, 'material cost' can be using mis-sized scrap material you have around the shop. Figure the cost of it and charge for it.
A person, 'specially a one-owner/operater signer can only do just so much donation stuff.
Make you a sign that says: "I can only do just SO much donation stuff, and today ain't your day. Tommorrow ain't lookin' good either."
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Mark, thanks for the reply, but I was being half facetious... We do a number of free signs here- but the locals know the cap- I'll update their event DATES- (which is tedium unlimited) so I took the angle of making a bundle of dates for each mob and each year they come along I just hand them the right numbers for that year's dates as they return the previous ones... and I get to see if they need any paid signs...but funnily they go elsewhere for them....
If I do a sign I'll mark the full retail price on the invoice, and then mark whatever discount I allow, that way if they damage it, or it gets lost, they can't quite expect a replacement for the discounted price, and they value it more & ternd to look after it...
But it took ages to get away from the ones who like others say, just want free signs with no reciproaction. (Does a dentist do free fillings on his day off?) (Does a real estate salesman sell a house on his day off withour asking for commission...)
I don't have much against free signs, but I reserve the right to be the one deciding who for and when, so that an unrequested one is often appreciated more.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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The ones I do do are small "Happy Birthday/Anniversery/Retirement" banners for personal friends.
I have done golf hole sponsership signs for fundraising events twice. Both were fundraisers for people I know personally, who were going though hard times due to SERIOUS health problems. In both cases I did 17 signs with other businesses names on them and one with OUR business name on it. Others contributed money. We contributed time and materials, and THAT is money too.
As far as "local" non profit organizations are concerned, they are spearheaded by successful business people who get their reward by being featured in the local newspaper and run by a bunch of "volunteers" who get no recognition, but tons of back pats from the top dogs.
The top dogs don't even consider calling me for quotes on their business signage needs so there is no need for them to call me for a freebie!!!
NOW, my regular/lucrative customers (none of whome are local) are a totally different situation. If THEY are putting on a charitable event or a company employee event, I donate the signage for them without batting an eyelash!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
You may become broke giving free stuff to non-profits but I guarantee you the employees/officers at some non-profits certainly are not going broke any time soon. If there's any excess at the end of the year they either reward staff or find some other cause to dump the money into.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I had one woman contact me just a few days before an event and wanted all sponsor names listed for free on a sign. She was a pro at asking for help. She had a come back for every reason I had for not being able to afford to help.
They didn't ask for enough money to cover the cost of a sponsor sign, so she wanted me to donate. Just starting out with a big building payment, and divorce, I told her I couldn't afford to hand paint all of those sponsor names. (no plotter/computer at that time). She told me they had a sheet, yes a bed sheet, they wanted me to hand paint the names on in order to save money. I explained how hard that would be to paint on material and said I just couldn't do it. After several more attempts to push me into it, she said, "well, you know I'm going blind don't you?"
Pam
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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I got one in the mail today that was worse than asking for a free sign. A local squirt hockey team was asking for $150 donations just for advertising. They didn't even have the marketing sense to ask about free/discounted signage. If I'm not even doing any signage for them, I'm sure not going to just hand them free money!
-------------------- Dana Blair Blair Signs Wooster, OH www.blairsigns.com
If sign makers go on strike, is there anything written on their picket signs? Posts: 835 | From: Wooster, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 1999
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Sheila, I forgot to mention I don't have kids, but I am a one income family with two overweight cats (16 and 18 lbs) and one 4.8 pound dog. They do cost me in vet bills, and food. Suppose that doesn't get me much financial sympathy.
This latest request is asking for a free sign, or free blueprints so they can make the sign and free design time for the sign design.
Pam
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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The best answer is the direct one, either "yes" or "no, thank you". If you say no, and they continue on with their speil, hang up and get on with your business. I only give to charities that I believe in. Trust me, there aren't many And, if and when I do give to a charity, prefer to give cash. If I am involved with an organization that needs a sign, I may volunteer to do one for free. But, if they come to me, I may offer them a discount www.give.org is an organization that keeps tabs on a lot charities and the way they spend their money. So, before you give, check out the web site. Also, check with your state Attorney General's office. They keep tabs on charities/non-profits too. They may have more information on smaller, local organizations. What really burned me was when I found that my mother was giving money to some state police association. My brother is a cop and they played her. While it was a legit charity, the charity used a for-profit boiler room operation to collect donations over the phone(the way my mother contributed). It ended up that the company doing the soliciting kept about 50% of the money they raised and it was perfectly legal.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just from your tone you sound like a total pushover, no malice intended in that observation. I have to heartily agree with Curtis; I don't think I have ever had *one* job come in because I donated to something. We donate to the American Cancer Society but only because they are a good customer and pay for what they get. We also donate someting once a year for the company picnic of one of the biggest manufacturing plants in the area and I'm more than happy to do that. I view most of the requests for free signs the same way I view a "homeless" man on the interstate off-ramp. And it's true, they *are* buying signs somewhere, probably out of town - just not from you. The thing that really stung me was the man going behind your back, asking for freebies from your employee. That is crossing the line! I'd never give his wife the time of day again either. Sounds like you might be on a "sucker list". I truly believe they exist. I used to give to just about anybody that came in until I noticed someone almost every week was coming in with their hand out. Don't fall for the guilt trip because you don't jump when they say jump; they are trained travel agents for guilt trips. Most of the time I just tell them "I'll help you move your piano. I'll even mow your grass if you're sick but I won't give you free signs; that's how I pay my bills and put food on my table." Another thing to watch out for (Dave Grundy reminded me of this) is relatives and "friends" (the kind you only see when they want something) wanting you to do free signs. It's been my experience that if you do, it's *worthless"; when you ask something of them it's *priceless*. Just saying "no" keeps out a lot of family problems. I get quite a few "I'll let you put your name on it if you give me a big discount". That don't fly either. I know this is 10 months out now but about November the beggars come out of the woodwork. Once you start getting rid of these leaches you'll feel a lot better about yourself and your business.
Edited to add: What Doug said is a real gem!!
[ January 10, 2006, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Ricky Jackson ]
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ken Henry: I wonder if hookers get as many requests for freebees...
Ya know, just last week I asked another 'head if they thought hookers got upset about bar flies who give it away for free the same way we get upset about lowballers who (basically) give work away for nothing?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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