posted
when i started this company i was excited and eager to do anyhting . i would spend 4 hours on hand drawn art for 1 4x8 sign. when a cusotmer wanted a layout i would spend hours on that to win them over. eveything that went out in the earlt years was extremely detailed and precise.
in the past 8 years it has been about the money, dont take that the wrong way! if a customer calls na dthye are seeemingly wasting my time i overprice to get rid of them. i do not do car decals for the kids because i dont want to be hassled with that.
my layouts are simple and to the point. i will not draw anything anymore unless its on a disk. i use to absolutely despise un-creative jobs now i love them. quick and easy with black helvetica on white use to bother me....now i welcome it.
it seems although my layouts are pretty much MINE! i have lost alot of the joy and have ventured more towards money. i hate to admit it but its true. i still love my career but things have changed maybe its just technology or the world in general
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
It's called losing your Mojo, Bruce. I've recently lost mine. I used to paint a dozen panels at a meet, now I barely choke out one. It has a lot to do with caring too much. Trying too hard to please. I care that my signs look good, and stand out in the crowd. I care that my customers were happy with my work. The only problem, for me, is that all they care about is price. I think that we all need to go back, on occasion, to a pencil and a piece of paper. The computer, while being a great tool and easing our work loads immensely, kind of homoginizes your talent after a while. Oh the joy of doing a snappy script with an overloaded brush. The ideas that just pop into your head as soon as you hear the client's line of work. The color schemes that burst into your minds' eye. Then the client either says you're too expensive, wants you to clean up nephew art, or worse yet, steals your ideas and takes them to SignsNOW. After awhile, and getting burned, we get desensitized. The enthusiasm soon turns into..."I think I have that on a CD somewhere, I'll throw in a few vector ornaments and call it a sketch." Guilty as charged, I do it too. I always do try to make my signs look punchy and not cookie-cutter. But I NEVER use Hellvetica, come on, man! Chin up old boy. Love....Jill
[ December 07, 2005, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Jill Marie Welsh ]
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I too have begun to see the inner beauty that lies within ultra condensed brush script!
Helvetica is just around the corner. But hey, there arent too many people in life who can stay passionate about anything after 30 years. For some of us it's just time to move on to new things.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
For me, it seems the computer age has taken a lot of the creativity and challenge out of our profession. I can remember spending literally hours on a single layout, starting with a plain sheet of paper, adjustable triangle, a pile of sheets of press-type, a bunch of colored markers, etc.
From that it evolved into something, maybe aided by an overhead projector, that was created within us individually. Scary as that may seem, it seemed to produce a real sense of pride at the finished product.
Now, just a few clicks of a few keys, and you're done. With the exception of custom effects, most any aspect of layout can be reproduced in vinyl. Nearly anyone can do it; competition has made the prices we used to charge for custom signage a thing of the past. It's relatively easy to lose the love for the craft. Many other professions have suffered from similar fates. I guess it's the trade-off we have to face in relation to the speed and convenience of the computer.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
If you are waiting for the world to fall at your feet because of your superior design tools and passion, you are in for a long wait. Over inflated expectations of what this profession will give you will ultimately bring you to despair.
I have been doing this for 25 years and I don't remember all the glory days and joy that some do. There are always jobs we do that merit good memories because of extra design and craftsmanship we put in them, but there are a lot of mundane signs too that have to be done. If they pay well than that too is a reward. Just striving to be professional in all aspects is enough to open the door one more day.
I was just looking through one of my old sign painting books from the 1940's and realized what a bunch of crap! The guy had two letter styles that he fell back on all the time and they were dreadful. Don't get me going on the cheesy clipart and poor layouts. At least right now among the serious sign people there are more creative designs, colors and materials than there ever was. Heck, some manage to do it with Helvetica.
Prices? Well that is a different issue I think we are all complicit in. It drives everything now. Just ask all the so called unappreciated geniuses here, who can print their full color business cards even cheaper than the last two anonymous internet print companies did?
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Constant innovation. Its the truth. Thats the only way to stay fresh. Yes the old borign stuff will always pay the bills. But, the key is innovation. Disguise the repetition. Different ways to do the same thing.
OR, you could do what I am goona do. Move 1,000 miles
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Nothing a Letterheads meet can't cure. Jill, I've been through the same set of emotions. We don't sell a product; we sell a part of ourselves and it hurts when we are not appreciated. But customers, for the most part, are just plain ignorant and don't understand. I don't know what it takes to make them understand either; if I did, Roger and I could make a million off of it, LOL.
I didn't take offense at your jab at Signs Now. I have certainly had my share of Signs Now designs (and the profits) made by competitors. If it were something really special I'd bust them but it's easier to mark them and go on.
Most people just don't appreciate passion, talent and ability the way they used to. The only redemption is the green salve seems to heal the wounds.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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You mean "Bird Flu" has already hit ? Uh, yer dreams and flights of fancy are laying around in a heap and haven't bothered to leap up and revive the spirit ? Yeh, there's been a monster living in my closet for a long time. AND......Tell me about the cost of doing business !
CrazyJack, Nuthin's sacred........!
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
*BOINK* Carl...you just got hit by reality!
With few exceptions, this is a business, not a ninerva of artistic expession!
You can start out with the pure joy of expression, but in time, you realize, in order to survive....money is important! Few people have unlimited budgets and want glue chipped gold leafed masterpieces! Most simply just want a sign that meets their immediate needs.
After nearly 39 years in this game, I have learned that most of my work is mundane stuff. Simple vehicle lettering, because he needed it yesterday...architect designed crap...simple ID stuff...and once in a while, something really nice! The exception is Window Splashes! BIG! BOLD! BRIGHT! OUTRAGEOUS! Customers love it when you go nuts on them!
My advice? Go on cranking out those mundane signs, they make your money...and when you get a 'live one' ... do your magic on it!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
What a sad bunch we are. What are we working for? Why did we get into this business in the first place?
Suddenly, no one appreciates us, so we are going to take our ball and go home.
If you are in this business for the money, cash the check and quit complaining.
If you are in this business for pats on the back, they will be few and far between (especially if you are really more concerned about the money).
If you are in this business because there is a passion within you that continually drives you to do the next job better than the last and the paycheck at the end of the week is the satisfaction of helping others look good then you are in the minority, to say the least, but you are also content, happy, and constantly waiting for the next challenge.
Did someone put a gun to your head and forced you to do what you do? Don't like it anymore? Quit...get a real job. Our life is what we make it.
End of rant.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: Well, if that's the "rut" you've gotten into and you don't mind it, I don't see what the problem is!
but saying you "have lost a lot of the joy" tells me that you do mind a little bit (even though you also welcome the quickysticky bread & butter jobs)
I think I am gradually learning to be too busy being passionate about NOT casting pearls to swine... & maybe pause long enough to quickly throw some high prices on the table & grab my receipt book or credit card swiper & say "cash or charge"
If they want a low price sign... we do that too but depending on how low... no proofs, no revisions... a pencil sketch in a 10 minute consultation (after collecting the deposit) & a phone call when the sign is ready.
If you get out of the habit of letting the cheap weenies waste your time... It's a passionate & joyful experience again when the high prices are approved (and partially paid) before hardly any time is spent.
I've been getting more jobs like this lately & I'm looking for little extra things I can do to make sure my client & myself are fully satisfied with the outcome... & even to make sure i feel like I gave them their money's worth.
posted
Ricky! I forgot about SignsNOW. I had actually typed in the name of a quickie-sticky competitor. Then I edited it. Sorryyyy! Love.....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
yep...feelin the same way. i'm really busy and i'm really bytchy. i guess we all have our different reasons for our lack of love in this business. i've just come to realize that the industry as a whole is driven by unskilled business people. folks complain til they are blue in the face about giving designs away and letting customers beat them down on prices yet it continues. one sign shop goes out, another one is in its place...and why??? how many sign millionaires do you know??? personally i don't know any that just did it completely from the sign trade...the very few sucessful ones i know don't have a lick of talent...they are great business people...they are delegators. they bought good commercial real estate, have rental incomes and surround themselves with talented employees.
anyway my point and i do have one...i am as burnt out as anyone else. i have made tons of bad decisions along the way..i feel unappreciated yet i know most of my customers think i'm wonderful...its that handful of dickwads that gets me down. the ones that look like you've stabbed them thru the chest with your exacto when you say your hourly rate is $60. oh but its ok for them to go get a $65(45 minute) massage from some dub that just came out of a 3 month body rub course and call themselves a massage therapist.
my new attitude is this...i've been doing signs since 93...i do okay...but not nearly as well as i should for the hours, heart and soul(not to mention debt)i put into it. the smarter side of me thinks the other side is a dillweed for still being in this business....but the artistic side wants to shine. i decided i would give this one more real chance to make both sides shine. i no longer let people waste my time...if they smell cheap...they are cheap and i make them go away. if they are demanding and degrading...well they find out pretty fast that i can make their hazy existence not be part of my world. i don't care if i lose some business...i work too much as it is. i will concentrate on my quality customers and offer them the things i can at the price i deserve. if & when that stops happening, i will put on a body condom, walkman and clean houses for $25/hr cash with no overhead.
end of rant!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I'm not sure I feel the exact same way about it as you do Bruce . . . but here's my take... . . .
I used-to spend a whole lot more time than I do now on 'designing' even 'plain' signs . . . and it's still important to me personally those kind of jobs to be layed-out to my liking, or exactly as needed.
Thankfully experience has made such work 'gravy-train' jobs. Some people call them 'bread-n-butter' jobs. They now go super quickly for me and fill in the gaps between other things that require more design & fabrication time, and those easy jobs also provide a good income between net-30's. Customers appreciate this speed too.
Still, I can't help but think I want to get further away from this kind of stuff . . .'cause I still love it when the the design challenges come thru the door. And I used to spend WAY too much time fretting over bigger jobs. But again, even my short experience helps with that and I've learned to minimize so much drawing time, altho' I will still spend the time to expand on a creative idea specifically for the purpose of upselling the work. I've realized the jobs where I was allowed a little creative room, were the best and most lucrative things I've done. . . . and the whole idea, at least for me, IS to do LESS jobs for MORE money.
Altho' I like the b&b jobs, sometimes, especially as a one-person shop, the little, easy jobs can bog me down and take time from fabrictaion on bigger stuff. I find I'm thinking... 'the longer the big stuff is taking up time & space in the shop 'waiting' for me to do the next thing, it's COSTING me money rather than making me money'. After all, I can't collect the big money AND the good referals for more of the same 'til a larger job is done.
I must look like a dog chasing it's tail.
In the long run, I suppose I would really rather spend most of my time drawing and creating one really expensive sign, instead of mindlessly making 10 easy-pie jobs.
I may be a little bit idealistic huh . . . ?
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
i suppose si has put it in words that i really meant...do the mundane stuff and then once in a while throw a whammy on the good stuff.
no i love what i do it drives me. but it has changed and i too along with it. i have learned whats imporant.....airbrushing a mural on a car hodd took about a week to complete $500.00 or move on to letters on a subdivision sign and profilt $1200.00 for one day install!....thats a no brainer.
i plan to do this till i retire or die which ever comes first, probably death and that will be fine i was just ranting about the computer age and art on cd has taken the place being creative in SOME WAYS! i miss the time i took back then but it DEFINITELY would not work that way in this age no way!
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Sheila, I have a phrase for what you described "The big fish eat up the little fish." Most of you despise the little $25 knock out jobs but to me it's CASH FLOW. You can't be a good business person if you don't know the importance of it.
Doug, you said a mouthful when you used the "...pearls before swine." When I think about the times I have wasted time and effort on some undeserving dipweed it just makes me want to gnaw my tongue. Some people just do NOT deserve our talents - period. These are the people I grab the money from and give them what they ask for and nothing more.
I think we have to satisfy our artistic urges some other way rather than making ourselves so vunerable. I used to lay it all on the line and do a bang up job on every sign. Sometimes it was appreciated and sometimes not. One time I did this job, a glass piece, glue chipped, 23k outlines, angel gilded, marblized wood columns and custom molding, velvet panel. My chest stuck out when I took it to the customer to collect my $1,200 (in about 1987) for the 2' x 3' sign. I presented it and the "lady at the counter" didn't even look at it; just said "put it over there". The money didn't even seem to matter; I was crushed; my ego had been hurt; I wanted them to *like* me and pat me on the back and tell me what a masterful sign maker I was. It's hillarious now as I look back on it but it was painful then. I finally learned to look at things as a businessman, no a signman. When you make decisions with your heart, it can give you heat problems.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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What in the hell are you talking about? i tried to give you a creative outlet. I tried to get you to be a pirate in a Christmas parade. Does Bruce have time to be creative? NOOOOOO!
Next year I'm forcing you to help build the space ship and we're all gonna dress up like Elvis and pound small children in the face with Mardi Gras beads. (speaking of that you need to buy us a 30' gooseneck trailer before next Christmas)
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Thankfully experience has made such work 'gravy-train' jobs. Some people call them 'bread-n-butter' jobs. They now go super quickly for me and fill in the gaps between other things that require more design & fabrication time, and those easy jobs also provide a good income between net-30's. Customers appreciate this speed too.
I'd like to think I know, and fully appreciate, the importance of such work. I certainly can not use such a strong word as despise . . .or even 'dislike'.
I guess my whole thing is a sort-of little inner 'worry' that I will suddenly be bogged-down doing nothing BUT little tinkering jobs and lose my other skills, or worse, the customers will lose the knowledge that I can do SO much more. You know what I'm saying?? I don't ever want it to, nor can I ever allow it to get like that.
It's that darn creative, righteous indignation and that intolerable artistic-ego ain't it . . .
posted
I love Helvetica, I think it's a beautiful, almost perfect sans face. Used correctly, it works equally well as body, display and secondary lettering.
It's only crime is that it was the on-board standard font with the Gerber 4B and became over-exposed to the point of nausia at a time when, in the UK font modules were £400 each and £200 would set a writer up with everything needed for a years supply of painting materials.
So, we weren't used to spending money, and poor old Helvetica Medium was used for everything and distorted in every way possible by unsympathetic button pushers.
It's hardly surprising we started getting snooty about it. However, in my opinion, the blame doesn't lie with Helvetica.
-------------------- Arthur Vanson Bucks Signs Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England arthur@buckssigns.co.uk -------------------- Posts: 805 | From: Chesham, Bucks, England | Registered: Mar 2002
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pat....if i was to partake in next years christmas parade shall i be the russian chimp? can my name be spanky the monkey?
thanks i cannot wait do i need to start making those cheap ass nasa tiles for the spaceship, oh nevermind ill use asbestos siding
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Sheila you sparked a thought about one of my guiding principals the "big fish / little fish". I didn't mean to imply you didn't understand about cash flow sweetie. My appologies for my lack of clarity.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Just got a call from a old friend who had to hunt me down. He asked if I would come out of hiding to "HAND LETTER" his new tow trucks. Seems that he tried to find a shop that uses paint but...... So I said, I'll do yer trucks if you don't tell anyone where you got it done.
Now here I am headin' for a digital show in Phoenix. Go figgr'.
CrazyJack..."used to love paint"
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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The Monster rides again! Bravo, bravo! Hope ya let us see the finished product.
You used to love paint, Jack? Funny, I've always hated that nasty, smelly, sticky, hard to wash off slop they call paint, but have always enjoyed making it do those things we make it do. I don't mind it so much when it's dry.
-------------------- Dave Parr Sign Painter USA Posts: 709 | From: USA | Registered: May 2003
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Hey Bruce, With all the inspiration around here, how can you get stuck in a rut!?!?! Just look at the recent projects Kelly Thorson is doing on the portfolio page. None of those appear to be paying jobs. What about Arthur's use of Helvetica in Jill's post? If you're making money but are not happy with the work, do something fun! Budget a few hours a week to find something new that will both challenge you and possibly be profitable for your business. I hear Dan Sawatzky is looking for some competition Life is short, so enjoy it while you can!
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Don't Worry, Be Happy!!! I was born into the sign business in 1939 after I reached 65 I tried to retire. That lasted about a month. You have to do what you have to do. Luckily I am also doing what I love. The trials of making a business work is also an art. Don't lose track of your real purpose, to have a meaningful and successful life.
Bill
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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carl...i was being silly...but what i meant was wear those big rubber gloves up to my elbows so my skin doesn't come into contact with other peoples dirty house(like bathrooms). i'm still really busy and bytchy...but at least i've gotten out a crap load of things this week! which lightens the stress level considerably! happy holidays!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
We have all probably felt that way at one time or another. I was in the same rut when I started visiting this site. The inspiration I found here helped get me through that bad time and I'm pretty happy to go to work every morning again.
But here's one thing I want to add
quote: I do not do car decals for the kids because I dont want to be hassled with that.
I have always taken care of the car kids when they came in. I was a car kid myself a long time ago. But better yet, I used to do windshield banners for these tuner kids 10 years ago. In the last couple of years I have done some pretty good sign and truck lettering jobs for these same kids now that they have grown up and gone into their own businesses or are now involved in family businesses. They remember that we were the only shop that would help them out and now it is paying back many times over.
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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after fighting those same feelings for a few years I found it was time to sell my business, I initially could not wait to get to the shop and at the end it was all I could do to drag my butt in.
I think the main challenge for me was the ammount of competition that there now is in this industry. I found I had to look for other creative outlets and at work simply focus on the money, it simply was not worth it to me any longer...life is too short. I also found myself being a full time manager of both people and projects versus being able to do every job and be able to use my hands...that was a huge turning point for me. I enjoyed the craft of sign work and found myself no longer able to do it, but rather I was a salesman, accounts receivable, and scheduler, we were at a point where there was no reverting to the "old ways" business was to big, bigger is not always better, and I'd forgot why I had started my own business (not just only for more money). Keep your goals in mind and review them often and don't be afraid to change them.
happy new year
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