posted
Something has been bugging me for a while now...or maybe it's just me but, some signs in my area and even in the trade magazines, have become more and more illegible. Last weekend, I followed a cube van and couldn't read the message in a reasonable amount of time...I really had to study it to decipher what the heck it said! It was vinyl lettering so it had to be done somewhat by a professional (meaning someone who gets paid for doing what they do). It was red lettering with a heavy black shade on white, and I know this is a cliche no-no, but the person who did this and the customer thought that this was ok! I realize that this has been a problem since signs were first made, but still it doesn't make it right. Other signs too I've noticed that are digitally printed, where with a few clicks of the mouse you can add gradient fades and outlines to make the message darn near impossible to read from a distance. I had a good customer come to our shop to talk about getting his truck lettered. As he was leaving he asked me If I did a particular sign that just went up because It sure looked sharp! After finding out who it was for, I had to say no, I didn't do that one, and immediately started to become concerned...did Gary Anderson move here...there goes my lifestyle! I immediately got into my truck, drove over to the new sign to take a peek...a block away, I couldn't read it. Half a block away, I couldn't read it. I had to slow down as I drove by to read it! How could this person accept this, and how could anybody think it was sharp looking? I admit it was certainly colorful, but readable...no way...someone sure had a good time with outlines and gradient fades!
When I first started learning to make signs...I admired to work of Chester Cunningham, Bob Seelander, Mke Stevens and Raymond Chapmen, (yes Ray, you too) to name a few. Bob Behounek was and still is my hero. Why? They're work is so clean, simple, and impactful. I lived and breathed the first Signcrafts...back then they only put out 4 a year and It was like Christmas when you got the new issue!
I'm not saying that the signs today are a mere shadow of what they used to be, in fact just the opposite...Sign work today with the technology, is some of the best I've ever seen, but just as there is some of the best work ever done being produced today, there is some of the worst as well.
I challenge anyone who reads this, to look at their work with a new eye, improve yourself to the next level, grab some old Signcrafts and spend some time there, step back and look at your signlayout on screen from across the room...is it readable? There's always room to learn, grow and share our discoveries. I am challenging myself to do the same. As Mike Stevens once said..."take a path of heart"
-------------------- Dave Correll Posts: 283 | From: Faribault, MN | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Seems to me the assumption that it was done by a professional is the first challenge for anyone who thinks this to get over. Quote:
"It was vinyl lettering so it had to be done somewhat by a professional (meaning someone who gets paid for doing what they do)"
Then you went on to describe how bad the work looks . . .
I know being paid is supposed to be the mark of a pro. It's supposed to be show that the person is beyond the hobby or mild interest stage. Being paid should somehow automatically mean the person knows what they are doing. . . Yeh. . . . mabey in sports.
But in a huge number of trades, (not just signs) you have a whole lot of of people who know just enough to be dangerous . . .
Also keep in mind that people who are not pros often will allow a customer to dictate what they want. This serves to show that neither the customer or the service provider has any sense.
Usually the bottom line is saving the almighty dollar. Pretty ironic since it has to have a high price in lost business for both parties in the long run . . .
I've seen it happen with carpenters, electricians, mechanics, ect.
A real professional would'nt serve a customer so recklessly. But, like mechanics, you have a lot of 'backyard' sign people . . .
Just another example of what clearly separates those who know what they are doing from those who don't.
Sorry for going on and on . . . I just took exception to your assumption it was done professionally when you obviously had no real reason to make such an assumption... to compare such hideous & clueless work in the same post with some of the greats you named does'nt seem to make sense.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
...Many major compamys exist only because they sell to UNEDUCATED CUSTOMERS. And (unfortunately) our trade is the same. Nowa days, It looks like just a FEW signmakers are "educated" (every one here excepted of course) and NONE of the buyers are!!! The sign business is wide open to HACKS! ...great.
...Companys like MACDONALDS, WALL MART, and FORD couldn't exist if consumers really knew what "quality" was, ...and what CRAP they are being sold.
...Now, just HOW to educate potential sign buyers is something that I'd like to know.
posted
Dealing with a customer like this now. Tried explaining that what they wanted would not be readable. They didn't get it. So I did a sketch of what they wanted and a quickie of what I was trying to explain to them would work better. Had them look at both from across the room. Got them to come around on some aspects, still not 100%, but it's a lot better than the garbage they were adamant about to begin with. Slow painful process, but I've noticed my confidence level going up the more I talk to customers like this and that increase is directly proportional to the successes I've had in changing their views & educating them.
Now if we could only figure out a way to educate the idiots who buy a machine & thinks that makes them a signshop, the ones who wouldn't know an effective layout if it smacked them in the forehead.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have to agree with you on everything. My first priority in sign design is legibility. It has taken me a lifetime to finally grasp that less is more.
It's great that we have all the tricked out letters and special effects today but its absolutely critical to know when, where and how they should be applied.
What it boils down to is this, the vast majority of people in our profession have never been taught right from wrong about even the most basics of good design. So it's safe to say the customers know just about as much.
Personally I have benefited from this lack of knowledge as it makes it that much easier to outsell the competition when the client can visually be shown the difference be what I offer and what the guy down the street sells.
I can't tell you how many times I have gotten the job with my price three to four times higher than my competitors bid. They just shake their head and agonize over why someone would want to spend more money on my signs than theirs.
I'll bet my bottom dollar that this is never going to change. It's just not an important enough issue to most people. Especially the customers who think a sign is just a board with letters stuck on it. With that attitude about business presentation its no wonder so many fail within the first year.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Hey....as long as you can click on all those wonderful lil doo-dads why not use them to impress the customer? After all, most of them have no idaer what will work for them, but they are impressed with all the 'flash'!
It goes back to if you can't impress them with your knowlege, dazzle them with Bulls***!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dave - all of a sudden my head is swelling up. You put me in there with some outstanding folks - all heroes of mine, too.
Chester listed the Seelanders has his inspiration and that simple style has trickled down to the rest of us.
Mike Stevens was the first person I know that put some basic principles together as to what makes signs look good. His layout principles are jewels and I refer to them (and teach them) constantly.
Layout and design are the foundation of good signage. Until you learn that, everything else is lost. All of my career I've been writing and spouting my mouth off about this subject, and some folks look at me really wierd. I've been called some things that can't be repeated here, but I just keep on talking.
It's sad that some people in our business have no desire to improve. Some even ridicule those that do try to learn what could make a world of difference in their work. But this is nothing new...it has been going on since I was little - well, since I was younger.
There is not much that I can do for someone else - I just have to try to do the best I can for me.
And thanks for the nice words, Dave. It feels good to know that maybe you have helped someone else along the way. Hopefully, those days of being tight lipped and taking your "secrets" to the grave are long behind us.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I notice illegible signs all the time and it makes me mad. I notice that design on products that have real graphics departments or quality sign shops doing the design you don't see this problem nearly as often as stuff put out by some small sign shops. I noticed a Budweiser truck with red lettering and a very nice pale gray drop shadow with a relief around the letters. Not the one I see all the time with the gradient looking shadow, but a newer one with just a very pale gray. It just looked "right". Almost makes me wanna have a Bud, but I don't drink. I see stuff done by amateur signmakers, call them pros if you want, I don't, where they put green letters on a red truck. They can't figure out why it doesn't "stand out" so they put a white outline on it, then they end up with an outline that stands out more than the letters and it looks confusing. They think they improved it but they can't figure out why their work doesn't look like some of the good stuff they see in SignCraft (if they read SignCraft). After trying to train a few people in this, I have concluded that at least in some cases its something that you either "get" or you don't. I look back at my porfolio of 22+ years and I can see that I'm not one of the real creative layout artists like some of you, but you can read my signs except for some of my early stuff where I was more influenced by Jimi Hendrix than Mike Stevens and company. It's possible to do prizmatic letters with outlines and shadows that are legible if done right. Rob Cooper does it. I hate seeing prizmatic with a very dark and very light both inside the letter. Enough outa me.
I think that sometimes, there's more going on the behind the scenes that maybe we're not privvy to to explain some poor choices. I mean the obvious ones (red with black) are just plain stupidity and lack of education on the 'designers' part.
But, sometimes, we're asked to do something that may not be, from a marketing standpoint, in the client's best interest (but they don't know that). I've had my fair share of bells thrown in - but sometimes they were dont for the clients ego - to show up his friends, or whatever.
As designers, our responsibility is to educate them on the rationale behind good design, and should they art-direct us to hell to the dark, give them what they want instead of what they need.
You mention the trade mags, and I'm not sure your comments are specifically directed towards anything I've written, but in general, when advocating any use of photoshop techniques, or things of that nature, I've tried to present the information in a way that might enhance a particular design. There's a time and place for airbrushed-to-hell stuff - but the subleties of these techniques can be just as effective.
I think the point you're making is that before you start throwing all these elements into your designs, make sure you've got the foundations down first, and I couldn't agree more.
I think we all recognize the lack of knowledge for entry into the business. Actually, there are no qualifications other than cash, and little of it, to boot. There arent many professions that have such a low barrier to entry. That's part of the problem.
Those who choose to educate themselves and expand their capabilites should do well if their knowledge is not limited to strictly to their creative side. Equal, if not more focus needs to be continually directed towards running a business, and more importantly, making money.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
If your outline/shadow is in greater contrast to the background than the letter is to the background, guess what, you've chosen the wrong color for your lettering, not to mention your outline.. Your choice of color should allow the letter to be very readable both before and after adding an outline/shadow. I see so much stuff floating that makes no sense at all. A white letter on a white background with another color for an outline/shadow. Another popular one around here is yellow letter/white outline on black or dark blue.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
With so many "bells and whistles" at our finger tips it is easy to overdo an otherwise legible layout. That's one of the problems I see with folks going into digital printing. Just throw a photograph on there, put some chrome lettering over it and do gradients and drop shadow to your heart's content. In the end it is unreadable.
And I'm not tallking about you Dan...you know what you're doing. Well, other than the fact that you can't choose the right type computer.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Good points- sad situation- I can't see it changing for the better!
The advent of big digital printers here had led to simply bigger bad designs in a lot of cases (not all, but lots). Even a lot of the big billboards you see on highways these days have stuff that is eyecatching, but don't ask me what the message is they're trying to convey...
(there are good designs, but the bad ones are multiplying & breeding!)
I lost a job a month ago to someone or other- the request was from a 'design agency' which needs renaming 'lack of design agency'. They wanted a layout that was awful= hot pink background in two tones, bright green text, deep red graphics, midgrey shadows inconsistant fonts & effects applied to them (one line was outlined, one line was outlined & drop shades, one was just shadowed). I was told it had to be in paint, not digital, & I gave them a fair price. I saw it the other day- well I saw the pink, I didn't see anything else, but it was all digiatlly printed. The person who 'arranged the clipart' was not conductive to ideas on improving effectiveness at all.
I love photoshop & what it can do, but all I was going to say was what has helped our industry (digiprints) has helped the unskilled to enter it too. These days you see more property signs & trucks too, with no rhyme or reason the the extra effects added, and no legibility whatsoever... but the cornflakes and crisps packets are often still a source of inspiration!
Maybe that's the future- get smaller!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:I think the point you're making is that before you start throwing all these elements into your designs, make sure you've got the foundations down first, and I couldn't agree more.
Perfectly stated and a valid point. If more people would just rely on simple design principles and techniques, the signs we see every day would not make us chill and wince. Proper layout, proper choice of type, and proper color choice are three things that get pushed aside in most of the signs I see around me. The people that make them dont say, hey, I think Ill look at some pics of signs in signcraft to see some layouts that might help me, they say hey, this sign has seven colors and six typestyles on it. Man, dont it look cool! I think its like being colorblind. But its called signblind. These people just cant see what is right, mainly because they dont want to take the time to. I like the frills available to us as signmakers, and use them when I can, but like to think that I rely more on the basic layout principles than I do anything. I hope sincerely that none of my signs ever makes another signmaker gag.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dave, I think yourself and Ray have both hit the nail on the head. First off, like you, when I started in this business, Chester Cunningham was my biggest influence. He could make a good looking, legible sign with the use of good layout, good color choices and the use of panels. Very few outlines and shades.
Now with the digital printer coming into the picture, everyone thinks they have to have a gradient fill, prism face, outline letter with a split shade, a photo and six different typefaces. They are designing signs like they would design a brochure. Which would work if you could hold the sign in your hand and read it at your leisure. Unfortunately for the customer it doesn't work when you are driving by at 50 MPH. But the customer usually doesn't care because to him it's got all the bells and whistles that he paid for.
All we can do is try our best to keep the customer educated and try to steer him in the right direction.
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are so many good points in this post. Dave, you have always been one of my heroes! (you too Raymond) Anyway, this thread really hits home to me. I feel that a design should be readable and attention getting in black and white before you go adding all the effects and stuff. Just because you CAN doesn't mean you HAVE to. The signs today, especially with everybody and their brother out buying versacamms, are mostly going down the toilet design-wise. Not that I am a great designer. But the more I see (and can't decipher) all this fancy-schmancy stuff, the more I long for simplicity. Had a great conversation with one of my other heroes, Arthur Vanson, recently. He brought up the very valid point that with every element of every design being highlighted and filled and shadowed, noting really stands out as the focal point of the sign. His layouts are bare-bones elegant yet punchy. That is what I have been striving for. I think that everyone, newbie or old hand, needs to step back from the keyboard. Get your finger OFF that contour button! Remember the basics. Just my 2¢. Love.....Jill
[ November 19, 2005, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Jill Marie Welsh ]
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I used to specialize in race car work. I started to notice something very odd when it came to what they ( customers ) liked. Somebody would be talking about such and such being a great looking car. I'd ask what number, they would tell me and I still didn't know which car they were pointing out, totally unlegible, yet everybody thought is was really cool. About five or six years ago we were at a big race over in Arkansas. I spotted three cars that were team based. The cars were identical except for being numbered different. They were black cars with white roofs. The graphics were all done in white with red outlines. The wheels were black with white and red pinstripes. Everything on the cars was detailed with this same simple scheme as were the trailers and the tow vehicles. I was blown away by how well it worked, the subtlety of it and how well they showed up on the track. All the racers( all young guys ) I was with thought they were ugly as hell.
It was at that point I officially gave up
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Everybody has made excellent comments...I was in one of those moods yesterday that I just couldn't take it anymore after seeing unreadable sign after unreadable sign due to poor color and layout choices. I've been guilty myself by making these poor decisions from time to time, and had my fun with as Jill puts it, with fancy schmancy stuff. Not that fades and outlines are bad...they sure can add to the impact of the design, but I think we can all agree that: we need to approach these features with restraint, that less is more, and above all else a sound and continued thirst of knowledge of good layout and design principles.
I realize that poor design will always exist. I just wanted to renew an awareness and refresh a sense of self improvement and dedication for our craft.
-------------------- Dave Correll Posts: 283 | From: Faribault, MN | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is exactly the stuff I will be looking at in my seminar in Atlantic City. It will be a simple and very informative way to look at a design and KEEP IT SIMPLE approach! It will also be a lot of fun as I use the people who attend to help me complete the design. Hope you can make it and have fun doing it.
posted
Bob Behounek is a good example to follow. Good crisp layouts, smart color combos and the right lettering.
We used to say the advent of the plotter allowed many to make bad signs perfectly. What about digital now? What a morass of conflicting garbage. Right now I am trying to design a nice visual impact with digital prints for my van and I keep coming back to designs that don't need it.
BTW, George Perkin's point about outlines/shadows with the main copy should be printed and put by every design computer.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I Think The Problem is Technology Makes it Easier for People who Don't Know How to do Proper Sign Designs do Sign Designs. I am not trying to smash people, But I know A couple of SIGN FRANCHISES that do this all the time. I Did a really nice Awning for a friend of mine & the guy next to his buisness had a sign done from one of these. You can't read it, the colors blend together, the sign is warped(lexan face), & the vinyl is already peeling, just to save a few dollars & I mean a few($75.00).
-------------------- Paul Vartanian Paul Vartanian Signs 8 Lord Terrace, Woburn, MA 01801 617-780-7684 Posts: 16 | From: Woburn, MA | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic