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Last nite I was watching the hockey game on TSN and on came a commercial (twice) for an Avery Office Sign Software product or something to that effect. This is a product they are selling that allows any business to start making THEIR OWN signage. As a major supplier to the sign business, does this strike anyone else as somewhat strange. They want to sell a product to the general business population that takes potential revenue right off our tables, yet on the other hand they want us to use their product to produce. Did anyone else see these commercials? Am I being too narrow minded in this or is anyone else uncomfortable with this. It is a little smelly to me. Thanks for reading this and have a creative day. What are your thoughts? D. Smith SignSmith Saskatoon Saskatchewan
-------------------- dave smith the signsmith 543 20TH ST.W. 306 242-6166 sign.smith@shaw.ca Posts: 7 | From: saskatoon sk. canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6812 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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We're not buying as much of their product, so they've got to sell it somewhere else.
The general public is not as aware of quality. If a person is going to make their own signs, then they don't care much about anything but the price. There is a market for everything.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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With the quality of the Avery vinyl, sounds to me like enough shops won't let that crap into their shops, so they gotta sell the junk to somebody.
After enough places "attempt" to do their own signs, and the signs fail, vinyl falls off, etc, they will call the real professionals to do the job correctly. (like they should of done in the 1st place)
I gotta get a root canal done, hummmmm, maybe I'll try to do that myself.....naw, I'll do the right thing and go to a professional, gee, what a concept!!
-------------------- Mike Berry New England Posts: 534 | From: New England | Registered: Jan 2002
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Even tho they have to sell their crap somewhere, there still is only a finite need for signage. If every office had a plotter, Avery sign software, a variety of vinyls, a variety of transfer tape, a variety of substrates, means to cut the substrates, highly trained people to make the signs, and all the other incidentals necessary to make signs (might could squeak by for $10,000) they might would make themselves a lot more signs than they would if they had to "pay" a professional to do them. They will buy the Avery "sign shop in a box", get their signs up and within a few months the reds will fade, the metalics will disappear leaving a muddy brownish mess, they will have glue lines around the lettering from the shrinkage and finally come to the same conclusion that we have - "Never buy another friggin' Avery product, no matter how small or insignificant". This company has created sooooooooo much bad karma. How can you take what was a very good company (Universal Products), selling very good vinyls, and make such a mess of everything? Some heads need to roll at Avery and it needs to start at or near the top. This is just going from bad to worse and the one that suggested selling sign software should be thrown out on the streets.
Personally I'm not afraid of Avery, and I'm sure none of you are either. With as many bad decisions as they have made it's obvious that we have nothing to worry about. They should cut their losses and get OUT of the sign materials (and software) business ASAP.
As Alton once told me: There are three immutable laws in this business: The blood will tell; The shyte will smell; and, Water seeks it's own level." We've been smelling Avery since they changed the vinyl formulas. It should be embarassing to them.
[ November 17, 2005, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Ricky Jackson ]
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Michael Berry: I gotta get a root canal done, hummmmm, maybe I'll try to do that myself.....naw, I'll do the right thing and go to a professional, gee, what a concept!!
I'm not a mechanic, but I fix my own car. I could pay a couple hundred dollars for a brake job or buy the parts and do it myself for under $100. If I don't do the job right, I could end up dead. If Joe Blow doesn't make his homemade sign right, he might not draw as much business. Not really super high-stakes we're dealing with as signmakers.
If you happen to have the skills, why pay a professional? No offense because I understand your point, but I know that *I* don't go to a pro for everything that I need done, and I wouldn't expect everyone in the world to do so either.
-------------------- Ryan Long Magic Light Neon Sign Co. Crawfordsville, IN Posts: 132 | From: Crawfordsville, IN | Registered: Jul 2005
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The expense to use that avery kit is so high that it won't last long. Make just one sign banner and use up a set of $50 printer cartridges, or have one cartridge run out in the middle of that run and they will see how they got screwed by just like those who got bad vinyl.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ryan, I think you underestimate the ignorance of most of our clientele. Designing signs **Properly** is a highly skilled process. Imagine a customer coming in and saying "I want a sign for my company and I want my companys name, address (with zip code), 3 phone numbers (all with area codes), a tagline, favorite Bible verse, a logo, oh and throw in something patriotic too. I want it in all capital letters, red and black on a white background; do the company name in red with a black shadow." Are you going to stand there and let him commit business suicide? We have to somehow convince the customer that what he wants is not in his best interest and we must project an image of professionalism (assuming we are a professional). We have to eliminate the extra fluff in the sign, explain why it's not a good idea to have all caps, why red letters with black shadows do not work on white, and why he should just trust you and come back in a couple of days to see what you have created for him. Ask for a 50% deposit, write up a work order, have him sign it and send him out the door then look up and give thanks that you have kept another human being from buying a sign so hideous and so ineffective that nobody would want to do business there. THAT is why we are the professionals; we are the designers, not the customer - unless you're one of the ones that would take the easy way and produce the sign exactly as he dictated because "that's what the customer asked for". If I could not convince this customer to let me do it "my way", I would have to send him down the road; I would not create such an abortion of a sign.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ricky Jackson: Ryan, I think you underestimate the ignorance of most of our clientele. Designing signs **Properly** is a highly skilled process.
Don't get me wrong, I despise ugly signs and wish everyone would go to a pro and fill the world with awesome signs like the ones I see posted here. But, I don't think someone making thier own sign for one reason or another is the end of the world. Sure, the folks here COULD DO BETTER, but that doesn't mean they have to come to us to get every temporary poster, every meeting notice, etc. The people buying this "kit" know it's not for high-end outdoor primary-identifying signage, and those that do treat it that way will obviously have a laughable sign -- but I see customer-hand painted crap all the time too. Having another medium for cheap business owners (aka the ones we don't like to deal with anyway) the to ugly-up the world with isn't the end of our trade.
-------------------- Ryan Long Magic Light Neon Sign Co. Crawfordsville, IN Posts: 132 | From: Crawfordsville, IN | Registered: Jul 2005
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These do-it-yourself kits have been out for a while. I think it's pretty slimy in theory for a company to sell supplies to the professionals and market D-I-Y supplies at the same time. But at this point, I would expect no less from avery.
I'm not worried about these kits though. The cheapskates who will buy those are not my target market.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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The kits are no threat to any of us - they may even serve to make the public aware of our value - no way I want to waste my time with a client cheap enough to think that is a deal. Take 'em away Avery and Thank You! Avery has been in the label/desktop business for a long time. I don't think this product has anything to do with the recent trashing they are getting, just a new marketing angle that will probably not really have a great impact on any of us. Avery would do well to become merchants here and field some of the hatred directed their way. I don't get their damage control department.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Thanks for all your thoughts on this matter. I have never used the Avery product and am quite surprised what I am hearing about it. You are right in saying that we, as profeesionals don,t have to worry about the lost business. What jerks my chain is the the whole idea of this company going around us directly to the customer. I guess if they are in a bad way with the industry that is an attempt salvage themselves. Who knows. Sorry for the repost, I am not an every day reader of this furom site. Thanks again for your thoughts. I always learn something here. dave
-------------------- dave smith the signsmith 543 20TH ST.W. 306 242-6166 sign.smith@shaw.ca Posts: 7 | From: saskatoon sk. canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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Fight it? Hell, I want to sell them. I don't want to deal with people trying to order cheap little signs. I'm taking a stand and praising Avery for trying to keep these people out of the shop. If somebody wants to make their own stuff to save a buck why the heck would I want to listen to them try to argue my prices? I personally think Avery finally got something right.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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yes I informed Avery and ND Graphics in Canada that I will no longer buy Avery vinyl to which they replied "that's a separate division and has nothing to do with avery vinyl" to which I replied I will no longer buy avery vinyl.Let them chase the amateur market but let us not chase the loser suppliers.
-------------------- jim gunn jim gunn signs &designs 3474 sandwich st windsor, ont canada jimgunnsigns@yahoo.ca Posts: 4 | From: windsor ontario canada | Registered: Jan 2006
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I had an Avery scare yesterday. I had done a big red utlility bed truck in them purty Avery colors I loved so well. I keep holding my breath wondering when it's gonna shrivel. Yesterday at work the guy who owns the truck (a real nice guy but a smart aleck) came in and said he needed me to look at his truck because the stickers fell off. Panicking but trying not to show it, I said "OK" and followed him out to his truck, my heart in my throat. ....he was driving a NEW red truck, the weenie. I never let on what a scare he'd given me. I hate that feeling of waiting for my summer of Avery work to fail. It's only a matter of time, and no I will never buy Avery again. Love.....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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and frankly most of the responses read on this topic were lame-either you choose not to buy from suppliers that are trying to cut your throat and steal the bread from your table or you go on supporting unethical suppliers and whine about their success in cutting you out of the market 5 years from now. With scores of reputable vinyl suppliers that cater to professionals why encourage a loser supplier like avery (in my opinion)
-------------------- jim gunn jim gunn signs &designs 3474 sandwich st windsor, ont canada jimgunnsigns@yahoo.ca Posts: 4 | From: windsor ontario canada | Registered: Jan 2006
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Jill, that tension is almost like wondering if you're going to have a baby in the truck on the way to hospital, isn't it!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7016 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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No....not as intense, Ian. (almost did that once) More like wondering whether a check is going to bounce! Love.....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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We talked to an Avery process engineer a few years ago, He was burned out from flying all over Asia trying to fix problems. In short, Avery has had problems because they tried to run a global manufacturing company with just a handful of engineers. They had coating lines running around the world with no engineers at all. If they noticed a problem they would call California and request on one of about 10 guys that were trying to cover the entire company. There were another few engineers that worked in the US trying to keep up with the paperwork.
ernie
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1725 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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