posted
NOTE: This is NOT a permanent application. We did it 6 am Sunday for a movie shoot(i'm working in the Paint Dept. on the show) Had to apply frosted vinyl, to 4 glass doors, 16 1/2" x 84". mostly solid , with Small logo/letters reversed out. We get the stuff premasked(not our call) Had done another with Rapid Tac, after leaving for 3 hrs, painful premask removal. So i tried light water on this one, still painful removal. Usually, rapid tac on large pieces, no premask no problem.Premask is a pain, but tried one with "dry", bubble city. Plus, PRESSURE TO FINISH, so's they can shoot, 3 hrs later, we rip it off.
So, what could I do diff. next time? btw, we soaked the premask prior to removal, still painful.
thanks, John
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Best results we've had are with 'fresh' premask, medium tack, dry application (new squeegee, push hard), and soak premask with rapid tac prior to removal... still a patience trial.
[ October 30, 2005, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Mike O'Neill ]
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Don't know what to tell you John, but was it rapidtacII? it does help alittle with glass installs, but it does take awhile to set-up, and even thoroughly wetting the premask doesnt always make it easier to strip.
I usually apply wet with tacII, and if the option is available, crank the heat up, all the way. Then check to see if you can pull the premask every 1/2 hour or so after wetting it. eventually it does come off without lifting too much.
I've heard Roger can do it in about 90 seconds though!
-------------------- Tim Rieck Signs Halfmoon Bay, BC Posts: 736 | From: Halfmoon Bay, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
??? What you call 'frosted' . . . do you mean like and ecthed-glass look??
Gregory (800-835-2221) puts out an etch-look vinyl, and you simply apply and remover the transfer mask easily . . .
In a case where you'd need the vinyl to be removed easily . . . it's fairly easy to peel off within a few days of applying, specially if it ain't in the sun . . .
But out of curiosity . . . would'nt it be just as easy to have set-hands replace the glass window with a clean peice of glass??
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I think I have your answer. On jobs where there is difficulty removing the mask without pulling off the vinyl, I take the transfer tape and lightly apply it to my cotton tee shirt. It pulls off micro particals thus making the transfer tape not so tacky. On small lettering I do not weed on the wax paper. I go ahead and apply then I weed. Hope this helps.
posted
How and what you clean with is EVERYTHING in a wet (especially glass) application.
You WILL run into problems like having to wait long periods of time if you clean with ANYTHING other then the Rapid Tac or TacII (Tac II should be your choice on glass or in subfreezing weather).
Use only "cheap paper towels" (no chemicals in cheap ones) don't use cloth towels, or bounty/viva paper towels, they will contaminate and cause LONG bonding problems.
Don't use alcohol, paint solvents (includeing wax and grease solvents).
Just clean with whichever Rapid Tac application fluid you have, clean glass twice (have to get rid of the residues from glass cleaners used in past).
When applied to glass with Rapid TacII, you should be able to remove trans tape in 90 seconds !!
Get some preasure down when squeegeeing, got to get the liquid out from under the vinyl, push, push, hard !!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
if the graphic was mostly solid maybe you could have taken the premask off the piece (just keep it on the part where the graphic was) before applying it to the glass? then apply with rapid tacII ... but for shoting I do use home made mix with a bit of alcool in it.
-------------------- Élaine Beauchemin scrip Lettrage Scripsit inc. St-Hubert, Quebec, Canada www.scripsit.net Posts: 1096 | From: Saint-Hubert, Québec, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I must point out the importance of my cleaning methods, if you don't follow them you will have bonding problems, at that point you might as well use soap&water.
You should use "mid tac" trans tape with any wet application by the way, if substrate was cleaned properly you will be able to remove trans tape in 90 seconds, couple minutes longer if temps. are below 30 f.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Okey Dokey, I think Roger has put me right. The wrongs...cleaned with windex n' rags. I will get Rapic tac 2, and use it accordingly. As I posted, we get the graphics already masked(med tack???) and theres no taking mask off beforehand .At anyrate, thank you all for the advice, it's weird not having control of the whole process, i.e. your own shop, we get things from the Art Dept. they know nothing of final usage of the things they make/order. Such is Showbiz, it's the Big Picture,yada yada.
John
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Even when done as Roger suggested, the 90 seconds is "horse puckey" or at least thats always been my experience in our area. I've used rapid-tac since I started this business 12 years ago. Actually, I lie, within the first year I first used homebrew, then "splash", and then my mentor showed me rapid-tac and I've used it ever since.
Then came the new and improved rapid-tacII for intermediate vinyls and glass installs, and while it is better than the regular stuff for these intended uses, it still takes far, far longer than advertised to tac-up. Maybe its our climate, or, well, I just don't know!
I would love to see Roger or a representative from Rapid-tac come to an open house at either Taca or East/West one of these years and demonstrate the 90 second install on glass. I've asked in previous posts, but things just get heated through this forum, and I doubt Roger likes me much anymore. Oh well.
Today's job was an install on glass, so I feel ok to add to this post, and will highlight my experience. First, the weather was nice to start, partly sunny/cloudy, temperature about 50F or 10C, and forecasted with a chance of light rain. The jobsite, 11 windows, 7 under cover, and 4 with an overhang. The product to install was printed vinyl graphics, sizes ranging from 10"x27" to 10"x48" and all to be installed on the outside of the windows.
The prep, scrape and clean all foreign materials off glass with rapid-tacII and wipe with cheap paper towels. Clean again with rapid-tacII and wipe with cheap paper towels. Clean a third time with rapid-tacII and wipe with cheap paper towel. At this time a passerby remarked about the squeaky clean sound of the windows while wiping sounded like a dog crying.
Marked my spots for install with small pieces of 2" transfer tape at the bottom of where the graphics will be applied. Lightly spritz the graphic and slip into place and squeegee down hard. I should mention that I used no application tape on the graphics, just peeled the backing and applied. Lots of fluid escaping during the hard squeegee process.
I applied the vinyl to all the windows, and it took about 50 minutes, then went back to the start and trimmed the edges back from the window weatherstripping. Took about 30 minutes. Back to the start again to re-squeegee all graphics again. Another 15 minutes. Tested a corner for adhesion, and it lifted with ease.
Had I tried this install with pre-mask, I would still be there now, waiting for it to tack-up enough to peel off the pre-mask while making a mess in the process with lots more squeegee work. I only hope some mischievous kid doesn't discover he could pull them off before they start to adhere properly.
I will go by this jobsite tomorrow to check the adhesion and take some pics. Only further trouble I might worry about is it started to rain later this afternoon, and with the higher humidity, the adhesion process will be even slower.
This is not meant to be a bash against Roger or any of the Rapid products. I stock them all and use them everyday. I just want to see the 90 second install in real life! But I still believe that it's just "horse-puckey"!
My hopes is that Roger will attend an open house/trade show at East/West in Burnaby, B.C., and come show us how its done, as well as enjoy a great salmon barbeque that they provide at this event. Hey, he'd even get to meet an azzhole like me, what could be more fun?
-------------------- Tim Rieck Signs Halfmoon Bay, BC Posts: 736 | From: Halfmoon Bay, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
3M's frosted crystal has the glitter in it, where the etch is only the etch look vinyl. i always apply dry with no problems of premask removal or application placement/adhesion. i've done some very fine detail, small segment pieces without trouble as well as large/full coverage building windows.
-------------------- Scott Pagan Admark Graphic Systems Admark Motorsports Graphics 9700 Metromont Ind Blvd Charlotte, NC 28269 www.admarkgraphics.com Posts: 325 | From: Charlotte, NC | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Apply it dry. In most every case, you can apply vinyls dry and there will be no problems. As you squeegee the vinyl down, apply with lots of pressure. You are applying it in one "stroke". In other words, don't apply it lightly expecting to come back on a second run to make it adhere better. Whenever you do that, it will ALWAYS leave bubbles.
I have done windows by myself, in reverse, with material 48"x120+" for McCrory's stores (it was ControlTac provided by the customer).
No fluid, no bubbles. Just go for it!
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
No problems with you Tim, just concerned about what is NOT working. I have applied to FROZEN glass at trade shows, I have applied to FREEZER compartments in lunch room refrigerators at distributor locations, anyone observe this ? Anyway, Rapid Tac and Butch Anton (superfrog) are doing some video work together, soon to have app. instructions avail.
Tim, when you say "lightly spritz" this could be a part of the problem, you may not be getting enough of the product on the adhesive to "activate the adhesive" I know I have heard this thousands of times. People think that if they get it too wet it will slow bonding ? not so, actually works better when wetter. The benefit of application fluids over soap and water or "positioning fluids" is the fact that application fluids stimulate the adhesive, so they will bond even though they are wet, even though they are cold !!
Other question, what brand of paper towels ? When I say cheap, I'm not talking about Bounty or Viva, these two have been saturated in chemicals.
You need the REAL CHEAP ones !
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Same problem here that is until I learned how to tell when the vinyl will stick or not. We do a load of winders here some with complete coverage.
Commercial glass cleaners have all kinds of additives to make the glass shine and look extra clean.
First use some rapid prep to pull out the silicone from the poors of the glass. Then use some RT II and clean again. Then drag the back or your fingers across the glass. If your skin slides easy then the glass still has silicone in it. Vinyl will not stick. If you feel some drag then its almost clean enuf. If you feel it almost squeeeeeeeeeeeeeck then its ready to accept vinyl.
No alcohol. No windex. No weasel ****, or witches brew will work.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Thanks for not hating me Rog! Just want to get to the bottom of this. It's been a thorn in my side not being able to get the 90 second results you claim. I maybe can't hand letter with paint worth a crap, but I do pride myself with being a darn good vinyl junkie.
We've been through the paper towel thing discussing this before, I too mean cheap, no name brands, no pretty smells, no super absorbant this or that, just no frills cheap paper towel. The cheapest I can find!
I also used to use rapid-prep as my first cleaner figuring it had better cleaning properties than just the appy fluid, but last time we got together over this, you said just clean with the application fluid. So I did, just as you told John to above.
When I say lightly spritz, I mean spray until I cover the adhesive evenly so there are no dry spots, but not flood to whereas its flowing off in big sheets of fluid, but it does get fully covered and drips off as I go to apply. And lots of fluid comes out when squeegeed. I know its covered well.
The glass was clean, very clean, squeaky clean! Unfortunately I just can't "get it" I guess.
Another job, which was etch-look vinyl, the windows had a visible film that seemed nothing would clean off. Someone had mentioned to scrub with bon-ami which did the trick to remove it, and that made sense knowing you want the cleanest of glass before you would gold-leaf it if you were gilding. I then cleaned again with rapid-prep, and followed by a cleaning with tacII. I went back the next day to remove the pre-mask on that one, and it still hadn't fully bonded. Like John's job noted above, this was full sheets of etch to cover the window.
I have tried to think of everything as to why it doesn't work as advertised by you, in 90 seconds. I follow your guidelines explicitly. I bought a fresh gallon, same results. I turn the jug back and forth before I refill my trigger bottle, to make sure the ingredients haven't settled. I even bought a quart with trigger figuring maybe it was my spray bottle. So far nothing has made a difference on glass, and nothing has given me the 90 second results.
I would like to add, that when it finally does bond, it does so very well. One of my biggest fears is having to go back one day to remove these vinyls from windows. It's a bear of a job, and on the big picture windows, it seems it wants to take the glass with it. I have worried about breaking the glass sometimes with the great bond that it had.
Can't wait for the videos. I hope I will see something there that will give me that feeling of "eureka" thats what I've been missing all this time! But even better, would be to see you at a local trade show here performing your magic.
I've seen many sign guys come and go in my little end of the world here in the past ten years. They all want to know how I get such perfect bubble-free vinyl installs. I always tell them what I use, and where to get some. Sounds like a great opportunity for you to push some product here, don't it?
All in all, I just want to "Get it" too!
-------------------- Tim Rieck Signs Halfmoon Bay, BC Posts: 736 | From: Halfmoon Bay, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Wow, this has been very helpful! I've got rapid tac 2 on order from ND, had to get it in from Calgary!!?? they locally had only the sample bottles??? hmmmm
Anyway, i've got lots more info than before, and look forward to the next install
I only do these on the shows, so will carry my own rp 2 and a roll or 2 of RCPT.
and if you come up to the NW, Roger, i'll be there!
John
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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I'm with ya on the wet apps - I only do them dry now as I have the vinyl lifting along with the paper. I clean with rapid prep & cleaners but after a couple of windows then waiting for heck to freeze over so I could pull the paper off I stopped all together.
John - do them dry and press hard. (my 2.3 cents US )
-------------------- Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
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