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This sign is to be 60''wide x70''tall, two sided sandblasted HDU. I'm having to deal with one of three brothers(partners) and his sister-in-law/artist. She initially dictated the typestyles she wanted and the "eye" logo you see here. She showed me what was to be upper and lower case and she wanted the main copy on the top sign to be ALL UPPER CASE in Roman font with an enlarges "D" and all of the secondary copy that way as well. There was more negative space within the large main copy than between it and the borders. The copy on the lower sign panel was to be all the same font in upper and lower case. She wanted "designer fashion frames" to be obscure but the address line was to be large and prominent...so people would "know they were at the right place". I don't understand that. I was initially given free reign on this project but, before I could get started, the sister-in-law artist stepped in. Anyway, below are the typestyles, sign-shape, and layout I'm suggesting to them. Though it may not look that way, there are only 2 typestyles on this whole design, only one of them is italicized. What improvements would you suggest? Thanks!
[ October 19, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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If it were me, I'd use a little more negative space. I'd also try and convince them to use the address number only (most people know what street they are on).
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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shrink the eye and the shape around it raise the name... add space between name and optometry group Eyewear needs to be upper case...so the y descender doesnt go into the next line designer fashion frames looks like 3 separate words incorporate that into a rectangle and change it to upper case no slant this will give Eyewear more impact swap colors on eyewear and spectacular then you will first read Davis... secondly ..eyewear instead of davis ...spectacular opinions from a yankee...
posted
A couple of comments Wayne, don't know if they are right or not, but my take. I think you are going to lose the outside border with it being such a pale color. I guess that really depends on what backs it up, but in your sketch it definitely dissapears. Would a brighter color be an option or maybe stark white? I think I'd expand the bottom panel a little. The bottom half seems pretty crammed. I might try changing the profile on the top a little too, maybe soften the corners where the oval meets the line. It looks like it will be quite catching. I like the green, pink and white together.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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One thing I'd suggest is combining the two panels into one. The combination of the two thick borders plus the gap added up fast.
I'd suggest making the border and the posts a few shades lighter of the dark green.
The bottom panel is crowding out most of what could be negative space.
Personally, I'd tweek it some, get it approved by the sister in law, and cash the check. It's seldom worth a lot of effort to fight a third party relative.
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The client wanted "eyewear" to be upper and lower, hence the problem with the descender on the "y". So, I used the bolder type so the thin descender wouldn't obscure any letters. I also modified that "e" slightly. I see the problem with reading "Davis-spectacular". I'll do some tweaking on that problem too as well as swapping the colors around. Another thing...these are supposed to be two separate businesses, hence the two separate panels. I haven't tried to comandeer the color scheme yet but hey...I've gotten this far with it. I did suggest a medium color for the border. So, maybe the client will let me get away with that too. The posts (Corintian? columns) unvariably have to be white because they want them to match what's on their building. So, that may impact the look of the border somewhat. I'll do some tweaking tomorrow. Thanks guys!
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Thanks guys, I used several of your ideas. I decreased the height of the top sign by one inch and added that to the height of the lower sign. Then, raised the height of the rectagular format in the top sign into the arch and that decreased the arch even which allowed the copy to be raised a little. Didn't want to shrink the eye any more but there is quite a bit of negative space within it so it doesn't need to crowd into the borders. I lowered it a little. I raised "davis" about 1'' and raised "optometry group" about .5''. I then decreased the word spacing within "designer frames" so it looks more like one phrase now (the client had wanted bullets between them). Squashed "Spectacular" in just a tad so now it isn't wider than "davis" Raised "eyewear" up about.25'' and then lowered the whole copy block down about a half inch. Then switched the colors between eyewear and "spectacular". Now eyewear pops and "spectacular" recedes But....now she wants "street" spelled out. I'm thinking now that the lower arch protrusion should be changed into a rectangle now.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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It's so much more difficult when the customer and/or the customer's relatives, insist on so much control over the elements of a layout. Sign design just doesn't work by committee.
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Wayne, would they accept the creative modification of putting the eye logo in place of the second letter 'e' of Eyewear?
Working with committees is a pain- you need to know who the boss is, & it needs to be you, or they'll never stop asking for changes to the design, & they'll be changes for the worse...! Unelss they have full confidence in YOUR design abilities, and thay your abilities are better than theirs, you'll have a struggle.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mabey you could eliminate the address by trying to talk them into putting the street number in nice big (brass-look vinyl) or creme coloured numbers on the door, or in a window transom, or mabey with brass numbers on the building . . .
I just created a post about this same headache the other day: all that clutter - not-even qualifying as secondary copy . . .
Why can customers not see how things like that detract from the layout????
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Wayne, I suggest you have the S-I-L design it in a program of her choice and provide it to you as a vector file, EPS, AI, maybe even a PDF if you can convert it. Have her choose PMS colors and materials... and you're DONE. No one to blame, and no returning numerous times trying to please her, or them. They don't respect your expertise, they respect hers.
You can't win this battle.
Edit: Two things though:
1) The sign faces need to be moved up on the posts - the posts are very heavy and seem to be "shrugging", for lack of a better word.
2) The eye works great where it is. The arch at the top acts as a visual "eyebrow".
3) Davis still seems too bold.
[ October 21, 2005, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Closing the deal early makes it so much easier to design. Try to establish your authority early in the relationship. Promise to not sell eyeware if they promise to not make signs. It's usually a poinient but humorous moment. Generally they get the point. Be firm. Now you gotta back it up. Not too many fonts, plenty of space, simple graphics, something that is in harmony with the architectural environment or business style. Colors..... This can get dicey. It's so personal. Let the customer know they are getting your best and they will generally let you lead. If you've done all you can do, give em what they want. There's no accounting for a customers bad taste. Then again they may know something you don't. Just answer the questions, Who are you? what do you do? and where are you? Its all visual junk mail after that. Try a plan B. Every thing your way. Hide it and wait for a lull in the conversation. Then let them know you've been working overtime to help them with their dream. Pull out the sketch and let it do the talking. Be prepaired to back up your stuff, verbally. But let them ask.
Remember, allllll this stuff is future rust and dust. What counts is how you treat folks. It's simple but not the easiest thing.
If you can "solicit the sister in laws help" then she may loosen up a bit and give you some say. Hold your ground, after all you are a trained professional. You are the one doing this everyday. You even get paid for it! Be the boss. Encourage your customer to cheer for you. Larry
-------------------- Larry Williams 184 Camelia St. Gulf Breeze, FL 32561 Posts: 21 | From: Gulf Breeze Fl | Registered: Mar 2005
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Being the money grubbing person I am..I totally agree with Gene!
quote:I suggest you have the S-I-L design it in a program of her choice and provide it to you as a vector file, EPS, AI, maybe even a PDF if you can convert it. Have her choose PMS colors and materials... and you're DONE. No one to blame, and no returning numerous times trying to please her, or them.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
I don't understand that. I was initially given free reign on this project but, before I could get started, the sister-in-law artist stepped in. Anyway, below are the typestyles, sign-shape, and layout I'm suggesting to them. Though it may not look that way, there are only 2 typestyles on this whole design, only one of them is italicized. What improvements would you suggest? Thanks!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
I'm thinking now that the lower arch protrusion should be changed into a rectangle now.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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