posted
I've always wondered why my layouts are more "professional" looking than most. Read that "Stiff". I look at stuff by Dan Antonelli and Mark J. (and dozens of others) and just drool. I love the looseness they project in their work and I've tried my best to incorporate that in my work but I really struggle with it. I was thinking about that and a thought came to mind. Could it be that my borderline obsessive compulsive (it's NOT a disorder!), my need to have everything arranged on equal sides of a theoretical axis, balanced to perfection (well, close anyway), etc, ad nauseum, could be causing my disfunction at making more casual layouts? I wonder what Siggy would say (Todd Gill to the podium please).
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well...I'm not Todd Gill...but i never refuse a turn at the podium
Ricky, I might suggest that you do some looooooose pencil sketching, of anything.....don't attempt to render portraiture....get action, get feeeling, energy ..that sort of thing...
i know that sounds loopy but a professor I had in college hammered that in to me regarding "fine" art, and it has carried over (in my head at least)to graphic design.
think about ENERGY as much as you consider BALANCE.
Just a couple poor pennies on the subject.
[ October 12, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
posted
Never fall victim to the symmetry trap -- you can have a perfectly *balanced* composition without it being symmetrical in the slightest. Even a super dynamic, energetic, directional layout can be visually balanced.
A good way to get out of a rut is to design within some rules you make for yourself -- say that you are going to design a logo that conveys motion to the right, or make yourself push a logo far to the right and experiment on how you can visually balance the composition without adding a visually heavy element to the other side or shifting the logo back toward the center.
I knew people in architecture school who couldn't shake this idea of symmetry from their plans and elevations -- and this is the kiss of death in architecture. Environmental conditions are not symmetrical, your building program and uses inside are not symmetrical...everything that should be informing your design is asymmetrical -- so if your final product is symmetrical, you're not letting the things that SHOULD impact your decisions do so, instead you are making them secondary to an unfounded notion that things should look a certain way.
Now, I know this is about more than symmetry vs. balance, but this hopefully makes sense. Making OC(D) rules to work within will just limit your designs and their visual impact on the viewer...
-------------------- Ryan Long Magic Light Neon Sign Co. Crawfordsville, IN Posts: 132 | From: Crawfordsville, IN | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ricky, Siggy would say you're Odepus complex is emerging . . . LOL EEUUUWWWWW!!!!
(Ryan, I think your absolutely right, mostly.)
ANYWAY Ricky, I know exactly what you mean . . .
I seem to take it by spells. Of course, my first sign jobs were either stiffer, or TOO loose, but I can look back on stuff from a few years ago to now, and tell you what was going on with my head and the resulting work.
Without a doubt, the more the customer turned me loose, the better those jobs turned out. I can tell when there was stuff goin' on that affected my work, like deaths in the family and other stresses.
I find I get stiff and stifled in my layouts primarily when price is a big issue with the customer,
Also if I have too many jobs going on. I just won't 'mentally-emotionally-artistically' take the time, and don't have the time, to tap more ideas.
Also, while I agree with non-symmetry, I also see times when it's presents a pleasing balance.
Signs are art . . . (which is subjective, altho' architecture is just a different medium for (hopefully practical) artistic expression.
Since signs are art, that's partly why it messes your head up when you don't DO what you 'know' and can see to do, or you're quenched by circumstances.
Just be glad Ricky that you can SEE differences in good/bad-stiff/loose layouts. Probably means you're on your way to more creative expression thru emulation . . .
(hows that for analytical??
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: Also, while I agree with non-symmetry, I also see times when it's presents a pleasing balance.
Signs are art . . . (which is subjective, altho' architecture is just a different medium for (hopefully practical) artistic expression.
But, signs aren't PURELY art. Just like architecture, there is an artistic side and a functional side. A sign has a function, to communicate something. A sign is a practical failure if it is a beautiful piece of art, but people cannot read it.
In any case, symmetry isn't FORBIDDEN. Many great classical (and neoclassical, obviously) pieces of architecture are symmetrical, although it has largely fallen out of fashion.
Signs can be symmetrical and beautiful and functional all at the same time. But, when one applies rules to every sign that FORCE it to be symmetrical, one might not let the sign perform its' function as well as it could. If a sign is most effective with a dynamic layout that moves the eye from left to right, starting with a strong logo and then moving to a like of copy, being obsessed with balance will not allow you to get there.
Didn't mean to suggest that symmetrical layouts are always bad -- they aren't. Forcing yourself to produce them is.
-------------------- Ryan Long Magic Light Neon Sign Co. Crawfordsville, IN Posts: 132 | From: Crawfordsville, IN | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have a suggestion for you Ricky.... take the Dave Butler course. There are a couple coming up soon.
I recently bought his complete Butler Gold collection. In using it to create some projects we are working on I learned a tremendous amount about Dave's wonderful style.
His work at first glance appears tight and precise, but when you zoom in on things you quickly discover that it's actually quite loose and fresh. While it is all digitized with a stylus and computer, its also very much still a freehand drawing. The lines wiggle a little, there's thick and thin. It's not perfect and its not true symetry.
Just the same it WORKS!
From the brief talk and demo he gave at Mazeppa I understand how he achieves this wonderful look. I look forward to taking his course soon and learning more.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
I can't believe I forgot about the practical side of signage . . . This memory lapse caused by a desire, and an ongoing effort, to be more artistic WITH the sign work . . .
No wonder some of my signs suck at being signs . . . lol.
It's really a juggling act sometimes for me. Torn between mostly wanting to produce the art-side, while focusing on the functional-side of the sign, all while trying to stay within the bounderies created by the customers budget, or the copy, or the logo, or the colours, or the size, or too many customers . . . .
or all of the above.
All my plates seldom spin at the same time . . . .
Every once in a while, they are all spinning, but it's really exhausting keeping them going continously.
I'm trying to rectify this dilemma by charging more for spinning plates for less customers . . . which should produce more artistically attractive yet functional signs, and mabey initiate the mural work I'm craving . . .
Please feel free to utilize a bash graemlin on me, if I offend you after you hear me out . . .
I know you are doin' the 'Signs Now' franchise . . .and sometimes, I'm just sayin' it could be izall . . .
SOMETIMES, the clientel you attract thru that franchize situation might not lend themselves to the more creative stuff you aspire to do . . .
Tire-kickers and bargain-hunters happen to 'regular' sign shops too, and Boo-Boo, I can just imagine you may be dealin' with more than the average bear's share . . .
You may not realize this, but they always affect you in some not-so-fun way. Very stifling and agger'vatin'. Can often mess up your whole day just dealing with someone on an ugly, ol' plain sign, whom you can't even run-off with a big price. . . lol.
EVEN BIG money on a plain sign with no artistic input allowed can bend your 'aura' out of kilter and make you just . . 'not right' . . . Know whut-I-mean-vern?
It's NOT always about the almighty dollar. it's about peace and serentity, and LIKING, or LOVING what you create, and being paid for THAT.
posted
Very true Sheila, we do seem to attract a lot of that. Still, when I had my custom sign company I still languished over producing something remotely loose. It seems that my work appealed to doctors but I seldom got a chance to do race cars. With the airbrush, I consider myself more of an illustrator than an artist. There has to be some exercises or a different design approach that lends itself to a more loose style that I can learn. I have noticed, however, that when a customer comes in, establishes a raport with me, compliments my work and places an order and I get a good price, my creativity soars. It might not be very loose but it still looks good.
Gramps, Dave is certainly one of my most favorite design gurus. Whenever he holds a class anywhere near reasonably close, he can count me in. I've wanted to pick his brain about how he comes up with this stuff for about 20 years. Time to give it up.
Being visually oriented, it is stimulating to look at other people's work, whether it be signs or packaging, and see how some of the elements are arranged and how they relate together and flow. Maybe I'm just knocking my style and should just accept it.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't do very many of these, but Window Slashes, and Christmas Windows, are a good way to loosen up. Force yourself into a quick time frame...like no more than 30 min on a Christmas window 6'x6'...and try to consciously paint one-stroke. Don't go back and "fix" anything. I think after a short while you will feel a certain freeness emerging as you paint. Try to just make up stuff as you go. Play with shapes and composition as you do them.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Gee Jeff, that IS a great idea. It boils down to just 'playing' with ideas and material . . .
You've even inspired me to do those on butcher paper, which in turn inspires me to mabey sell a few that way so people won't have to scrape windows . . .
Man, you people are so inspirational . . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm no expert but seems to me, whether someone lays out by precision and symmetry, or they lay out loosely and spontaneously: as long as the sign has legibility and harmony, it is successful.
Ricky I'm sure it's not a disfunction!
Perhaps (and I can only speak of myself, but anyway...) looseness is directly linked to confidence... if the pressure's off, or someone's pleased with my stuff and I'm still basking in the warm glow, things come out pretty well. If I'm not worrying about the budget on the sign, like Sheila said, that's pressure off too. If the pressure's on, then sure we fall back on formula, it's safe and reassuring.
Sometimes though I'll get this nice loose artistic layout going, looks fine in the sketch, and then when I transfer it to the board and letter it, it tightens up 'till it squeaks. Letter spacing that worked, doesn't. Looks stiff and amateur.Frustrating 'cause the sketch layout will be satisfactory, it's nice and loose, and then the sign turns out so-so. Lack of experience I guess.
If I'm laying out directly on, say, a chalkboard, where it doesn't have to be so 'professional', it generally seems to gel/flow/harmonize better, I guess again 'cause the pressure's off and it's out of the 'box'. The harmony happens without so much analysis.
I agree with Barry and Jeff, the gestural/one stroke approach does help loosen you up. Helps me for arty stuff. Guess I should do more of it preparing for signs. Maybe just practicing super free who-cares layouts on cheap board and loaded brush, with nothing to lose. Wild abandon!
posted
Naah, they've got it all wrong- Ricky, it's that hat: every single day I see you wearing it, and as the head grows, the brain gets compressed like sardines, into straightness & symmetry- can't you notice the metaphor ingraining itself into your work?
Here, you need some help...
I managed to surgically remove it, and the lightbulb of ideas was blinding- it radiated out and nearly set things alight so I had to hose it a bit before the monitor melted, that's why the colours are a tad flat.
Best wishes with your newfound un-hat-restrained creativity
P.S I know what you mean by your original post & the answers are good- it makes an interesting exercise to try and analyse others' work for a recipe or a formula to their brilliance. I can't say I've found one, but it's a good mental exercise.
I tried this with our kids the other day and it was fun: draw a pic with a pencil- anything, animal, clown, whatever. Now put it in front of you and get a fresh bit of paper & swap hands and copy your drawing, but draw with the OTHER hand. When finished, get another bit of paper and change hands back to the 'normal' one, but rorate the original pic 180 degrees, and try & duplicate it by eye the same upside down version. Then do that with the other hand.
Getting used to, & being game to trying out 'other' methods (rather than 'safe' methods) helps 'massage' the brain's abilities at creativity. There are a few ideas in Roger von Oech's book A Whack in the side of the Head. (actually, wasn't it you who mentioned this book a year or more ago?)
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ian, that's hillarious!! I'll definately have to post a new pic now, without the hat. Yes I did mention Von Oech's books awhile back. There is another one called "A kick in the seat of the pants". Maybe I need to dust these off and re-read them. BTW, John Cox told me about these books years ago when he and Mike Stevens were doing the design school thing.
It's been interesting to see where this thread has gone. Sometimes, just becoming aware of a "problem", real or perceived, can be the undoing of it. It was definately the hat; it's gotta go.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
THanks for the compliment about our work here. It's interesting that your take on our work is 'loose'. I suppose some is, but I think so much of our stuff is just more corporate these days given the clientele and type of work we're doing.
I was probably a lot 'looser' a few years ago. But design is an evolution - both personally, as designers, and also a reflection of times and trends.
It all boils down to the needs of the clients. Styles are merely ways of communicating the message - but different marketing goals ultimately demand different design approached.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
This memory lapse caused by a desire, and an ongoing effort, to be more artistic WITH the sign work . . .![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
lol.
Printer-friendly view of this topic