So, October 4th I get an email from someone asking a question about one of my PT Cruiser kits. Things have been kinda hectic lately so I didn't respond right away, naturally it slipped my mind and today I get this in my mailbox:
" have already sent you an email several days ago inquiring about a color of vinyl displayed on your website. I have received no answer from you. I was ready to purchase 3 days ago, but I cannot make a decision on vinyl color until you contact me. Here is my last try to get an answer from you so I can place an order. If I still do not get an answer, I will simply print your illustration and take it to a local vinyl sign dealer and let them copy your design for me for about 1/2 your price. I'm trying to do the right thing and order the item from you, but if you won't take care of your business I'll take care of it myself."
HMMMM.... I could sell this kit for $165 which I think is dirt f'n cheap.. or ignore this email, contact the sender's ISP to get their address, and serve them with a copyright lawsuit that can bring up to $150,000 in statutory damages according to this article:
posted
Hey Mike I read all that.. Does this apply also to the other Sign Shop that would copy the design.
I am having a similar problem here with that. Another person opened a shop and is going around and copying my signs and then going to the client and telling them he will letter there window or vehicle with "Their" Logo for $75 to $100.
One of my clients informed me of this.. He through them out of the shop but I am keeping a keen Eye out for them now.
I'm really waiting till I see a few of them done then contact my lawyer.
posted
I've been scouring copyright laws a LOT lately since getting more heavily into photography and that's actually how I ran across this info.
I'm not a lawyer but my guess is the other shop would be included in any lawsuits (their are provisions in the link I pasted for multiple infringers) unless their was a signed agreement between them and their customer that states the customer assumes all liability for any possible copyright issues.
In your case, I would venture to say that your customers who take this guy up on his offer may be unaware that you still hold any kind of copyright on the designs. If you have their signature on a piece of paper that states you retain the copyrights and they just forgot about it, the court may be on your side. If you have no written proof, you may be sunk as far as going after your customers, but the other shop may still be fair game if he's copying your work on speculation, hoping to get those jobs. Of course you have to prove he's doing that, which means getting your customers such as the one who told you about it, to testify for you.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Many years ago, there was a guy doing the same thing, but his mistake was going to one of my customers that was opening a second location.
The customer took his card and said that he needed to think about it, and called me as soon as that guy left.
I told him to invite that guy back at 9 am the next day. I was there at 8:45 and parked in the back. I was there to greet him when he arrived.
Told him to take all the pictures of my jobs out of his "book" and that if he did it again...I would hunt him down, beat the snot out of him...and break every one of his fingers.
He must have believed me....he left for some other part of the country!
[ October 07, 2005, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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If Si says he's gonna break my fingers I sure as heck ain't gonna hang around to find out if he's bluffing. I had enough crap from him when he was showin' me how to stripe, I'm scarred (and scared) for life!
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Well gee Pimp . . . I see both sides of this . . . she waited 7 days to hear from you?? C'mon!
On the other hand, her way of handling it goes beyond extreme . . . and shows her unethical tendencies, not to mention silly impatience . . .
What to do...what to do . . .
I reckon I would just sincerely apologize for not getting back to her sooner, and in the next breath firmly relay my intolerance for rude and illegal threats, state my original/art-ownership policies, then give her the opportunitiy to either continue the business at hand, or choose another designer's work to purchase.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Mike, As soon as pen hits paper or your shutter clicks, it is copyrighted. In order to sue you will be better off if you Register the copyright with the Gov't. You are then covered for ALL expenses, including your court/lawyer fees, plus a larger percentage of any penalties the court is allowed to hand down.
You may also register even AFTER the offense occurs, as long as it's within a specific period of time (can't remember how long, but it's a good while). A great book (that someone else here recommended & I bought) is the "Graphic Artists Guild Handbook, Pricing & Ethical Guidelines" available at Amazon.com.
NOW, not to hijack this topic, but I will re-submit a related question that I ask whenever this subject comes up. I'm never happy with the responses I've gotten here so far.
When the customer comes to you to continue lettering his fleet of trucks. It was previously lettered by another SignGuy that he no longer wants to do business with. Do you letter his trucks the way they are currently lettered, or do you refuse because they are copyrighted? Since it is his "corporate look" it needs to look the same and he's not willing to change his image.
What do you do???
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
That is a good question Gene. . . .and can be an 'egg-shell' walk . . .I can't say that I have ever been in that specific situation with another shops custom design, but I feel sure I would handle it properly.
There are no cut-&-dried answers as there can be a great many reasons for such a situation, and I certainly would try to find out the reason for the change in sign service.
Mabey the customer recently moved away, or mabey the sign person retired, or moved or something. There could be very legitimate reasons to go ahead and repeat the logo consistently, and without attaching one's name to it as the creator of it, just as you would do if it were a UPS truck or whatever. Mabey the customer bought the design outright to do with as he pleases.
Also, feeling out the customer and lettin' him talk a while, may reveal a clue that the customer is 'hard to work with' and demanding, or did'nt pay, and may be trouble for you as well.
In that case, it would be easy to delay a quote until you can possibley call the other company, or just simply make the decision to not work for the customer, by your own intuition, based on those verbal clues, which often are pretty apparent if you listen, and if you have the advantage of learning personally & first-hand how cons & manipulators work.
Well, another scenerio: Mabey the customer was fed up with poor or slow service, or shoddy materials used by the other company. I have been in that specific situation. A slight sense of competition usually causes me to want to provide better service for the customers time and money, (altho' the sign work was not the other shops custom design)
In cases where customers came to me after having made a down-payment with another signer who bailed, I urged them to try to complete the transaction with that person. In some cases they waited and were able to finally get their sign, and in some cases I started a new job contract with them, due to the circumstances with the other signer. I hate that situation because I feel bad for the customer having spent money they lost, and then, on top of that, I make them pay me in full, because I don't like wondering if the other guy is gonna come thru while I'm working on the job which might cause the customer to bail on me.
That's a bad situation all around, and more frequent (tho seldom) than the other copyright thing.
Now, if I knew the people at the signshop the customer left, that would be the easiest situation. I would certainly call them and discuss it with them first, and most likely defer to their wishes.
Finally, I simply explain these things to customers. I think we don't give our customers enough credit for being reasonable, thinking adults most of whom are business people themselves, and who are quite capable of assimilating facts and information. (lol)
The majority of everyday people will always respond to honesty, credibility, and dependability.
And Gene in reply to your statement: "I'm never happy with the responses I've gotten here so far."
Someone notified me once that a good chunk of our logos were ripped off our site and posted on another so-called designers site who was trying to pass them off as his own.
I sicked my attorney on him, and their ISP and within 48 hours, I had the guys site down, and him pleading with me for forgiveness.
The ISPs generally don't like to screw around and usually take the offending site down quick because they can also share some liability.
I also have some local moron who put my company name, and my name also into his meta content. This idiot is in the rifle scope next.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Gene, a written, signed contract releasing you of any responsibility in the matter which also puts the "blame" squarely onto them may be the way to go there, or require the customer to get the other shop to sign over any rights they may retain in order for you to accept their business. I also do register designs and photos with the Library of Congress. I submit collections on CD and get large batches done at the same time.
Dan, yeah I gotta find an attorney that's worth his salt. I haven't seen any Intellectual Property guys around here.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
My reading of that letter shows an impatient person trying to get a response. If she were really interested in stealing your design she wouldn't have written a letter. That you are thinking of waiting for her to copy your design rather than sell her the kit, shows me that you are more interested in revenge than making a sale. At least part of the problem lies with you. I think she has a right to wonder about a business that doesn't answer emails promptly.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Some people need instant gratification and 2 full days for this customer must be way to much. What do you think will happen if shipping takes a couple days? Maybe you should do what the soup guy in Seinfeld did "No Soup for you"!
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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Russ, my comment about ignoring her was just a wiseass crack.
Here's the resonse in full that I emailed to her this morning at 9:45: ------------------
XXXXXX,
I apologize for any delay in response. Things do get hectic from time to time and stickerpimp.com is a small operation.
Due to variances in computer displays there is no way to compare exactly which color is displayed online, however the sample color on the pt-003 kit is closer to the Pewter Metallic film in real life. The Pewter film is slightly darker than the silver used on the PT and would compliment it nicely, giving a very simple and clean look.
Regards,
Mike Pipes DI Graphics stickerpimp.com sales@stickerpimp.com (928) 505-2237
-------------------------
Note I didn't bring up anything about copyrights or her attitude, and believe me I had quite a response typed up that did but I ran off a couple quick jobs to cool down and came back to the email a little more level-headed.
Interestingly enough, it's now 11 hours later and I haven't received a response yet. hehe.
After thinking more about this, oftentimes when people are *that* impatient to push an order through for something so non-essential to survival as a sticker kit, it's a REAL big red flag eluding to credit card fraud. I may be jumping to a conclusion here but I'm going to keep a close eye on this one.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
"So, October 4th I get an email from someone asking a question about one of my PT Cruiser kits. Things have been kinda hectic lately so I didn't respond right away, naturally it slipped my mind and today (oct 7) I get this in my mailbox"
I'm sorry Pimp. Dunno why I figgered that as 7 days . . . it's only four.
I think you did well in your response too, but personally, I would have still had to reply to her threat in at least some subtley demur way.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Mike, If possible, as you said, "require the customer to get the other shop to sign over any rights they may retain in order for you to accept their business" is the only proper way to go. But, in reality, if your competition is getting a piece of your action, and takes advantage of your design skills, are you going to willingly give it up - for free? Is the customer willing to buy that design from you "again"? In your photo work - say you sold him a photo of his puppy. He takes it to his SignGuy and has a digital print put on his fleet of trucks. Now what? You tell him to buy the copyright of the photo, or else. He bought the photo, it's his to do what he wishes- or is it? Copyright is the "right to copy". We, as artists, can sell that right with limitations - signs only, or shirts and hats only, or napkins, placemats, letterheads & print ads only. Or we can sell it outright as "free and clear" or similar term, with which you are releasing all future claim to that copyright.
And Sheila, you had all of the right answers AND the wrong ones in your response. My statement, "I'm never happy with the responses I've gotten here so far", I guess, is because there are always the ethical and the legal implications inherent in the question. I guess it depends on whether you're the infringer or the infringee as to what the response will be at any given time!?
Do we do the "right" thing for our client and just copy the design so he has a consistent fleet? It depends:
Have we all repainted a plumber's truck like his last one so his fleet will look the same? YES, we weren't as copyright saavy then, and people weren't as educated OR as litigious.
Were we legally justified in doing that? NO, unless ignorance is justification.
If the original designer died or moved away, can we then copy this design? NO, copyright remains for lifetime of artist plus 70 years, (royalties go to their heirs I assume).
If the customer claims that since he had the truck lettered and he paid for it, then he owns the design - is he right? NO, he was sold lettering on a truck, not a design copyright - unless that was stated in the terms of the contract.
If the customer claims that he is the legal owner of the artwork, and puts it in writing, are we no longer liable? I guess that one's up to the judge!
edit for spelling
[ October 08, 2005, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Gene, you brought up some really good points. ________________________________________________ G.G.:"Do we do the "right" thing for our client and just copy the design so he has a consistent fleet? It depends:"
Have we all repainted a plumber's truck like his last one so his fleet will look the same? YES, we weren't as copyright saavy then, and people weren't as educated OR as litigious." __________________________________________________
Gene, in such a case, how then do we handle nationally known trucks (ie: UPS, Binks etc)??
And, also, would your reply differ if a main, or secondary branch of any company hires you to repeat a logo??
__________________________________________________ G.G:"If the original designer died or moved away, can we then copy this design? NO, copyright remains for lifetime of artist plus 70 years, (royalties go to their heirs I assume)." _________________________________________________
Gene, how would you REALLY handle such a case? I can honestly say, if I design a logo for a guy here in 'Bama, which he has paid me for (design and lettering), and he then moves to PA . . . I can only hope when he needs another identical lettering job on his next truck, he will be able to find someone to do a great job. But if he don't? is that really any skin off my teeth?? have I really lost anything, even if the guy in PA does a poor job??
Right or wrong, I reckon I feel like it's out of my 'jurisdiction then. If I'm dead, it's pretty unlikely that anyone's gonna look up my kids and give them royalty pennies, which is what royalties amount to unless you're selling 10 million albums...
__________________________________________________G.G.:"If the customer claims that since he had the truck lettered and he paid for it, then he owns the design - is he right? NO, he was sold lettering on a truck, not a design copyright - unless that was stated in the terms of the contract. If the customer claims that he is the legal owner of the artwork, and puts it in writing, are we no longer liable? I guess that one's up to the judge!" __________________________________________________
Gene, this one's been discussed over and over here, (and not always with clarity)...
It appears that you doubt that some customers would, or even could actually own the rights to their logo/design, when millions of companies DO.
And indeed there ARE some sign shops who are knowledgabley selling the rights to the art directly to the customer for use on business cards, letterheads and ect, and rights which probably do not exclude other sign shops repeating a truck or billboard logo or whatever.
Meanwhile, I think there are also times when we are profiting from the TIME we have in a design, and not actually selling it's potential uses, but the customer is still using it in those ways and we pretty much don't say anything because we feel like we've been compensated, or mabey we realize we are not viewed as a big design agency that would have gotten ten grand for an image creation.
But here's my main important thought: In reality, we realize, we are MOSTLY serving people who simply can not afford such a big agency and don't even NEED such a design service, since they do not plan to grow their business beyond the city limits, or county lines.
I suppose it boils down to asking one's self a few questions before creating a logo design for a customer . . . but they are really-and-truly 'iffy' questions.
Across the board tho', when we think about the average little new businesses that comes thru our shops, I'd like to think we can make some pretty valid educated guesses with these questions which are pertinent to your design interests monetarily:
~How big can this person's company get? What is the likelyhood of him going statewide or nationally known, or international?? Find out what their long term goals and ambitions are.
~What is the current budget? Of course we wanna do this awesome kicker design that we know he'd love, but can we afford to with what they can afford??
~Put yourself 'there' with the customer before your pencil hits the drawing board: If honesty is the best policy (and it is) then right up front, even before a thumbnail happens, we have to explain to the customer the far-reaching uses of the design we can provide and what this means to them financially (which is what it means to us financially
Finally, somewhere along the price-line, we have to decide when to let the financial gain from the design ends. If the custom logo design for the little local restaurant is that big of a deal to you, then decide what lump payment you need right then for the design and all it's far reaching uses, and this includes your time selling the customer on that potential value.
I mean, is it worth risking losing the customer for taking this whole 'POTENTIAL logo uses' thing so far and getting the money for it, and basically scaring the customer away with the seriousness of our posistion??
On the other hand, just don't whine cry and moan about someone using 'your' logo design for menus, business cards, catering trucks, and menu boards, sometime 'down the road' after you sold the job for a plain one-time fee for design time, and the price of the main sign.
If all that does happen, chalk-it up to a good learning experience, let it go, and do better next time, if you think it's going to be worth it . . . .
None of this is meant be confrontational or argumentative Gene. I'm talkin' to me, and all of us as a whole, and learning as we go . . .
I'm just askin' stuff is all. I'm seeing both sides of this continous discussion of design value. . . .which to me, seems to boil right down to GUESSING how far a new business owner CAN go financially and how successful the average new business will be.
quote:Originally posted by Gene Golden: Mike, If possible, as you said, "require the customer to get the other shop to sign over any rights they may retain in order for you to accept their business" is the only proper way to go. But, in reality, if your competition is getting a piece of your action, and takes advantage of your design skills, are you going to willingly give it up - for free? Is the customer willing to buy that design from you "again"?
That's between the original creator and the customer. You might have to battle over this moral issue in your head since you do signs, but I do mostly custom graphics work so usually I don't even have to worry about people wanting me to reproduce other people's work for them.
quote: In your photo work - say you sold him a photo of his puppy. He takes it to his SignGuy and has a digital print put on his fleet of trucks. Now what? You tell him to buy the copyright of the photo, or else. He bought the photo, it's his to do what he wishes- or is it?[/QB]
No, it's not his to copy. The photo and all rights to reproduce it belong to me, unless I grant certain rights. In this case, the usual rights for something of this nature would be Personal Use Only - meaning he could make additional prints for himself or friends and family to hang on the wall. Taking the photo to a sign dude for fleet graphics now falls under Commercial Use which would follow a completely different fee schedule.
quote:Copyright is the "right to copy". We, as artists, can sell that right with limitations - signs only, or shirts and hats only, or napkins, placemats, letterheads & print ads only. Or we can sell it outright as "free and clear" or similar term, with which you are releasing all future claim to that copyright.[/QB]
Right, and so far I have never relenquished my rights on any of my design or photography work.
I now have another copyright battle.
Seems one of my "one time" customers has had another local shop outright copy one of my jetski race number designs for use on their truck. Guess how I found out!
I went to this shop to pick up some film, they're also a distributor for a few vinyl brands, and there was this customer's truck parked in their bay, with my number plate design on it!
The owner is an attorney. He should know better.
The sad part here is, some of the other artwork used on the truck was drawn by a 9 year old and the parent wanted *that* artwork on it.. it's really horrible looking and several people have already made comments to ME about it, thinking *I* did the work because it has *MY* race number design that EVERYONE recognizes as mine!
I'm done being Mr. Nice Guy.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Sheila and Mike, This is by far the BEST and most honest discussion of this topic I have seen on this board. I don't feel that any of it is confrontational, Sheila, because it IS a discussion. At times, I throw out the question, playing devil's advocate. We all will answer them differently because we all have a certain point where common sense, or self-preservation, meets legality. There are no cut-and-dry answers, but there are many legal ones that we should at least be AWARE of.
Sheila, as far as corporate logos like UPS and such, if you are lettering for a UPS truck, then you can rest assured that it is approved. If a guy down the street wants two UPS magnetics for his truck... NO.
You are right, in our humble businesses we usually deal with the smaller businesses which are not aware of the value of a design. We do need to educate them, regarding the importance of good design, as well as to whom the design belongs.
If they have any vision, and we are willing to sell them the artwork for $250 above the price of the truck lettering job, then they will have free reign of that design's destiny. Otherwise, if they are short-sighted they need to know that there are limitations set down by our copyright.
On a large job that entails a lot of design work, I will often include the artwork in the price of the job. The customer is aware of this, and I will provide them with the files. On a single truck/yardsign/banner I am NOT designing so the VinylGuy down the street can have the benefit of my 30 years of knowledge.
Let's say that we all have at our disposal, the same tools with which to design. Identical computers, fonts, materials. Just as we see in the Design/Cost studies in SignCraft, no two signs will look the same or be constructed identically - guaranteed!
What sets us apart is our design knowledge, skill levels, and the abilities to combine our talents to produce a product.
Don't sell it short, and don't let anyone else take it from you without DUE COMPENSATION.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
This discussion now includes two, very different, types of designs: 1. single-use designs sold to end customers 2. logos sold to businesses
Mike appears to be talking about the first type, since his designs are for personal water craft. If a customer buys a design, it is implied that they will use it for one machine, not a whole fleet. To prevent misunderstandings, it would be good to clearly state in the paperwork that the design is sold for single use only, and any additional use would be considered enfringement. Mike probably does this already.
Logos are a different animal in my opinion. I have worked at several advertising and design firms, and when a logo is sold to a customer, all rights are transferred.
I consider it extortion when, after the logo project is complete, a designer tries to hang on to the rights of a logo and dictate its future use through copyright. I also consider it extortion when the logo has been paid for, but the designer won't give a vector file of the final design without further compensation. Do these designers tell the customer up front that this is how they operate, or do they spring it on them at the end?
If all the cards are laid on the table in the beginning, and the customer chooses to limit their rights in the interest of saving money, they are at least making an informed decision. They can choose to do the project or not, based on the information. However, if a designer holds these cards until the project is complete, the designer is the dirtbag, not the customer.
The intent of a logo is to give a visual identity to a company. Varied and multiple uses are implied. The company needs the freedom to use it as they please, without having to beg the designer for additional permission to use it on coffee cups, shirts, etc. Designers worried about getting just compensation should learn to charge a fair price up front.
When I sell a logo to a customer, I couldn't care less what they use it for after that. They pay me and I give them a disk with the vector art. Done deal.
Designers that include a logo design for "free" with the purchase of a sign, are sending a mixed message: as long as the customer is buying work that stays in-house, the logo is worthless, but if the customer wants to take the design elsewhere, the logo is priceless? I don't blame the customer for being confused. Designers that don't value their own design time shouldn't be surprised when the customer doesn't either.
To avoid misunderstandings and hurt feelings, the designers should state up front that logo design is billed as a separate charge. I consider it dirty pool to wait until a sign job is complete before telling a customer that they don't have the right to use the logo anywhere else.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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I started a reply last night & abandoned it when I didn't think I had the energy right then to explain my views. You did it beautifully.
Gene also summed it up well at the end of his last post: "Don't sell it short, and don't let anyone else take it from you without DUE COMPENSATION."
or Russ's summary (further distilled with my "cropping"): "Designers that include a logo design for "free"...are sending a mixed message ...Designers that don't value their own design time shouldn't be surprised when the customer doesn't either"
I've been guilty of selling myself short, & didn't like seeing the design being reproduced by another signshop or even another trade (shirts, printing etc.)without compensation... but I usually accept responsibility for not offering a disc for a fee up front, & try to learn from my mistake.
The only time I felt like I was on the borderline of being the "dirtbag" designer playing dirty pool, was when I had come up with an award design for decals that were purchased as the "Mayor's Award Certificate" Later the County wanted to have vector files to use the design on print media & on more costly engraved awards done elsewhere. I then offered them fees for those rights. They no longer wanted the design. If it had been a logo, I would have charged accordingly, & relinquished all rights. As an award decal, I did charge for the design time, & this year provided the second annual award decals charging only the decal cost & the typesetting charge to enter new recipient info. I considered the original artwork fees as sufficient only for the time required to make the award something we could both be proud of, but I guess I "sold myself short" last year & then kinda slapped them with attempted extortion this year.
[ October 09, 2005, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
Quite a few years ago I was doing some package design for a customer. They knew what my hourly rate was, and they were prepared to pay it. However, we hadn't discussed the cost of the logo, and they weren't happy to find that it was extra. They paid me, but never used me again. It was a tense situation, and I realized I hadn't done a very good job of communicating. If I had stated my expectations in the beginning, I don't think there would have been a problem at all.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Russ McMullin: This discussion now includes two, very different, types of designs: 1. single-use designs sold to end customers 2. logos sold to businesses
Mike appears to be talking about the first type, since his designs are for personal water craft. If a customer buys a design, it is implied that they will use it for one machine, not a whole fleet. To prevent misunderstandings, it would be good to clearly state in the paperwork that the design is sold for single use only, and any additional use would be considered enfringement. Mike probably does this already.
No, what I'm talking about is one of my regular stock designs that's been available on my website since 2003 and have sold hundreds of all across the US and internationally in that time frame. There is absolutely NO room for confusion over who owns the design, none whatsoever.
When I do a custom design for a jetski I give the customer the option to pay a One-Off Price where they would own the one and only original design, or to waive a design fee and add the design to my stock library where nobody has any rights to it but myself.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I don't think we are at opposite sides of your issue Mike. I am not disagreeing with you at all.
I made my comments because the discussion had turned to copy rights for logos, and I see a distinction between corporate identity design (logos), and the type of work you are doing. The rights should be handled differently in my opinion.
My main point is: give the customer full disclosure of expectations up front so they can make an informed decision.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Russ, When you letter a van for "Earl's Pools", you letter his van. You create a color scheme, put a nice panel behind the copy, choose a perfect font and tweak it. You charge Earl $450 for his van lettering. You're compensated well for a truck job.
In effect you HAVE designed Earl a "potential" logo, but you have only charged Earl for a van.
When you see Earl using this for his print ads, Yellow pages, website, tee shirts and billboards - don't you think it has just become his LOGO?
Does he have that right, since he paid for the van lettering?
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
See what happens when computers enter into our "trade". How many of the old sign pros here in the past just wrote up a sign, got paid for their time & material and moved on.Now, because we live in a computer age can they go back 20 odd years or so and ask for some money because some "dirtbag customer" decided he liked the design so much he had a screenprinter or someone else copy and use it. I once felt proud that someone liked my work enough to turn it into a "logo". Now I am supposed to believe that I have been ripped off.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Gene, plain and simple, the customer has a right to know when the designer is holding back rights.
When Earl from Earl's Pools comes in with no artwork, and no current logo for his company, isn't it good business practice to tell him it's a "potential logo" situation? If, on the other hand, you keep this information to yourself, and design a potential logo and include it in the truck lettering job for free, why should Earl think it's fair to pay extra later when you tell him his truck lettering has just turned into a logo? Did the $450 include design time? Shouldn't Earl wonder why he wasn't charged for a logo in the first place? If you planned to hang on to the rights did you tell Earl about this before you started the job? There has to be some responsibility on the part of the designer to disclose what rights they are given, and which ones are kept. This should be in writing.
If the potential logo only hatches into a real logo when Earl takes the design to the yellow pages, the designer is trying to play both sides of the fence and isn't being honest. Either it has value, or it doesn't.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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So far this is just theory. What about the real world. We sell logos design that includes a disk with different file formats of their logo for any type of use. But most of our work is just nice layouts. If we pulled the "pay me extra now or nobody could ever use this design but me" line, most of the customers would go elsewhere. We are talking about very small businesses. We may have the "right" to do that, but is it smart business to alienate a large part of your potential customer base. If I take care of them, I will have a customer for life and won't have to exercise my "rights".
-------------------- Carper's Signs 594 Union School Rd. Mount Joy, PA 17552 carpersign@earthlink.net Posts: 157 | From: Lancaster, PA, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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Russ, the designer is not holding back any rights, it is inherent in the creation of the design. That is the "copy right". The customer's ignorance of that law does not justify their use of the design.
With that said - I include a line on all of our invoices that reads, "Included in this Quote/Order is a fee for a simple design based on your initial request and description. Any additional changes are subject to additional charges. All Artwork and Designs are copyrighted, and remain the property of Gettysburg Signs".
I am up front with my customers, and I let them know what they are receiving for the amount of money they are paying. I also let them know what is NOT included. Most of the small guys don't think too far in the future, they just want a magnetic. I just let them know that for $85, I am not providing this as their corporate logo.
Until such time that I sign over the copy rights, they are not at liberty to use it for anything else.
Just thinking out loud here: When you buy a sandwich from Burger King it has their logo on the wrapper, does that give you free reign to use that image. You bought the burger and they gave you the wrapper with it. Does that imply that it is yours? You bought it. Why should it be any different with your design?
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Wow, this is a good discussion of the technicalities and realities of an ongoing 'problem' about these issues.
(Just an insert here: Gene, it goes without saying that we (I) would not do a corporate logo without express permission from within the corporation. I guess the UPS example was'nt a relative example.)
Back to the current discussion, quoting myself again:
quote: "Finally, somewhere along the price-line, we have to decide when to let the financial gain from the design ends. If the custom logo design... is that big of a deal to you, then decide what lump payment you need right then for the design and all it's far reaching uses, and this includes your time selling the customer on that potential value . . . .
just don't whine cry and moan about someone using 'your' logo design for menus, business cards, catering trucks, and menu boards, sometime 'down the road' AFTER you sold the job for a plain one-time fee for design time, and the price of the main sign."
And Russ said:
quote: "When I sell a logo to a customer, I couldn't care less what they use it for after that. They pay me and I give them a disk with the vector art. Done deal.
Designers that include a logo design for "free" with the purchase of a sign, are sending a mixed message: as long as the customer is buying work that stays in-house, the logo is worthless, but if the customer wants to take the design elsewhere, the logo is priceless? I don't blame the customer for being confused. Designers that don't value their own design time shouldn't be surprised when the customer doesn't either."
So true Russ.
Gene, you make some very valid points. But I wonder about the second part of your statement:
quote: ".... I include a line on all of our invoices that reads. . . . All Artwork and Designs are copyrighted, and remain the property of Gettysburg Signs."
I think it's a good statement, and I fully understand the meaning behind it, I have used it myself in the past . . . but the direction I'm going is to just sell the design right off the bat, and avoid such a statement to begin with. . . . then be paid to build a sign or letter a truck with it as a SECOND separate contract.
I dunno . . . I'm just thinkin' out loud, because the ol' pool guy Earl, is a perfect example: I'm not sure he's even gonna remember that he 'owes you more money' for the design when he finally goes for business cards a year down the road . . .
Ron just reiterated my earlier main point about risking losing customers with our rigid design ownership demands... We all know the majority of the custom designs people get from us are for brand new small businesses and some of them won't even last a year . . .
Sometimes, I just figure in a price to cover my time on the art, and letter Earl's truck. Later on down the road, Earl gets 500 cheap business cards . . .the printer could'nt even match the basic layout . . . oh well. It's really absolutely NO biggie to me. Earl's just tryin' make a livin' and he's off to a clueless and disinterested start too . . . lol. I'm only glad I kind'a had him figgured that way and did'nt do that real elaborate design for my own artistic ego . . . . .
With the majority of new customers, I typically try to find out their budget, and if they 'seem' like they have a real business head and some goals and such, and the first clue is they realize they have to pay for a design, but know they can't afford a huge design firm . . . I will offer a 2 or 3 teir price and design thing, sometimes I do 3 entirely different designs.
But, I'm using my time . . .I'm using selling ability and my artistic skills. I may NOT sell the job and therefore not be paid for my effort. . . .in THAT case, all designs remain MY PROPERTY, mine exclusively. The customer makes the decision to go elsewhere. I lose the sale. Ka-sers-sera. Mabey I can tap that art for a customer down the road with a similar business.
But typically, the customer is going to choose ONE of those designs, and that should be THE ONE TIME SALE OF THAT DESIGN...
THEN, after THAT initial sale, the customer is going to pay me another amount to execute the design on a vehicle or building sign, etc. We may do it all on that one contract, or start another, but it will be a separate sale.
They are NOW FREE from financial responsibility to me to go get their business cards, ect, while I'm buildin' the sign . . .
After we make the sale, I see no validity in requiring them to pay me more money.
Is this not right??
In the end, I'm convinced we are really helping in a huge way to build the community. It's PR at it's finest. I think it's an awesome responsibility to be involved in the very image of a new business, the creator of what will be everyone's first impression of them. You almost take it personal if they don't last . . . ya know? This is not to say that we should be pushovers and give the work to the 'struggling' new business...to the contrary, I know we should make a good profit on making our gift of creative imagniation so tangible!
So!
It looks like the question has boiled down to:
At what point in the business transaction will we do so??
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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I agree with most of what you wrote, but the opposite side of that approach has not been satisfactorily answered in this thread.
When the pool guy drives his new truck in, and asks you to match his old truck, what do you do?
Do you actually ask every customer who requests a sign or graphic with his company "logo" to authenticate his right to reproduce the logo?
Do you ask for it in writing?
Is there a single response that indemnifies you in all situations?
My company designs logos every day. Some are sold for thousands of dollars and some are essentially free. We don't specifically release our copyright but we don't expect any additional compensation either. So when Earl the pool guy comes in, we don't really think about the copyright of the shop that lettered the original truck.
And when Pool-a-Rama comes in, we assume they have the right to their logo and we use it to letter their truck.
And we also know enough not to include a little Donald Duck cartoon on the truck.
I think our situation is typical of most sign shops. We want to do the right thing, but we do dozens of jobs a week, and don't hold up jobs waiting for corporate approval or copyright release.
The easy answer would be the customer indemnifying us by signing our proposal. If such as statement exists, we should all know about it and use it on every job.
This is the kind of thing I would expect a trade organization to develop and provide to its members.
Does a legally tested statement exist?
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Mike, Sorry if this hijacked your topic, but I think it's all relevant.
Great discussion so far, and this is where I feel we need to go with this topic.
Sheila, as always, good, valid points. As a rule, we let the customers know up front that they can have us design a "logo" or business identity, as a separate part of our transaction. Otherwise we let them know what the restrictions are.
And Paul, yes you're right that we haven't satifactorily answered one of the most crucial parts of the question. Do we re-letter Earl's truck the way he's always had them done?
Again - "Graphic Artists Guild Handbook, Pricing & Ethical Guidelines" available at Amazon.com, discusses many of these things in great detail. It still hasn't dealt with Earl's van, or maybe I just haven't read that section yet.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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These kinds of problems have been going on for centuries. The terms have changed over the years, but the root of it all still comes down to the basic denomiator which can be put into a single word....forgery.
An excerpt from Wikopedia's definition and description of forgery... "Copies, studio replicas, and reproductions are not considered forgeries, though they may later become forgeries through knowing and willful mis-attributions."
The key words here are " knowing and willful" in the situations described above.
"Mis-attributions" is basicly attributing credit for the work perfomed by someone other than the originator. In modern terms we commonly use the term "knock off". In the 16th century imitators of Albrecht Dürer's style of printmaking improved the market for their own prints by signing them "AD", making them forgeries. In the 20th century the art market made forgeries highly profitable. There are widespread forgeries of especially valued artists, such as drawings meant to be by Picasso, Klee, and Matisse.
As it applies to this topic, the qestion is not whether you can do Earl's van, but how you choose to do it. Ethically, you could research the ownership of the design to a REASONABLE degree and make your decision based on that. WILLFUL violation of copyrights is the unethical route.
...and we all know that problem continues to plague, not only the sign industry, but many others as well. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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In my book, Earl is innocent until proven guilty. & possession is 9/10ths of the law... if he says here's my logo on a disc, make me another one... I just do it... if he says here's my logo on the truck, make one... I say where's the disc? who designed it, how do we get it & save you a bunch of money. If I learn that ha doesn't have it, can't get it... I still go back to Earl is innocent until proven guilty. & possession is 9/10ths of the law.
I've seen my vehicle work replicated by another company I see it as a call to do better marketing to keep my business in the minds of my former clients.. or better customer service to keep them happy working with me.. I never think the other company shouldn't have taken the job.
posted
I'm like you Paul, Gene . . .and others . . . I'm not 100% sure what to do about Earl . . .
I reckon I'm assuming how I'd feel if Earl were my original customer and went elsewhere for his second truck job . . . it would'nt matter a whole lot . . . well . . .
I mean . . .
mabey a little, because, assuming I'm not dead . . .Earl has'nt moved . . . I have'nt moved . . .(we've sort'a duscussed all those possible circumstances on this thread) . . . .so . . .
I WOULD wonder why Earl did'nt just come right back here for his second truck job....unless . . .
no . . .omg . . .
*GASP*...
unless he's getting in done . . .
. . . CHEAPER!
*GASP-CHOKE-GAG*
NOW THE WHOLE QUESTION HAS CHANGED . . .
but only a little...IF I didn't ALREADY get paid... 'cause if someone else does it now, it's basically a principle issue then, and one that will probably cost me more monetarily than it's worth in lost time on other jobs.
BTW: Do you suppose an ol' low-baller gives a rats-analysis about who the original art belongs to?? Do you think HE was concerned about it and questioned Earl??
Besides, did'nt I ALREADY get paid for the art, AND for lettering Earl's first truck??
Let's hope I did. (otherwise, reference my quote about whinin', cryin' an' moanin')
So, just because Earl has serious loyalty problems, and is impaired at recognizing the difference in quality materials . . .is that, should that be, any skin off my teeth??
(I'll just quietly hope the vinyl falls off in two weeks or the paint fades prematurily . . . )
Is'nt there a song about a 'Earl' that would be applicable here?
OK. All humor squelched: my whole point is some of the copyright/art-ownership stuff we holler about is really simply just our own artistic-creative indignation and hurt 'feelin's' that we rant about . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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First, no, the computer and modern improvements is not really going to cause people to go back and sue for past rights . . .it would be impracticle and legally unproveable in the huge majority of cases, but (the computer) will improve that opportunity now and in the future.
Meanwhile, the burden of repsonsiblity for being financially compensated for custom, original art, including logo design, belongs entirely to the creator of the work alone, UPON THE CREATION AND-OR THE SELLING OF IT (in any form), NOT after the fact, down the road when it's unproveable due to the passage of time, or the premature, improper sale of it.
(Therein lies part fo the problem . . . it's a burden of repsonsibility. Most people would rather whine about lost design money later than deal with it properly to begin with)
The computer is also not responsible for failure in this area, because sign artists have been giving away logo design for WAY too long. The computer can however, expedite the illegal use of a design not paid for, again, if the owner of the design is not careful.
So, Yes. You're supposed to, (should, must) believe this: YOU have ALLOWED YOURSELF to be ripped-off if you are giving away a custom design itslef without being compensated for it financially above the actual job itself.
In Mike's case, the customer made a threat of intent while KNOWING the work IS definitely copyrighted and Mike would have had an excellent case against her if she had followed thru.
posted
Boy I cant wait for you guys to read my next SC article. Totally on topic to this discussion.
It's titled 'Overcoming the 'i don't need a logo' syndrome and talks a lot about the issues above....
Communication is key. When a business asks for truck lettering - they really don't want truck lettering. They want advertising. Start selling advertising instead of lettering and you'll make much more money. Educate the client on the difference and you'll have someone who understands that you're their ally, not their adversary.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Sheila Ferrell: To David Drane:
Yes and no David.
First, no, the computer and modern improvements is not really going to cause people to go back and sue for past rights . . .it would be impracticle and legally unproveable in the huge majority of cases, but (the computer) will improve that opportunity now and in the future.
Meanwhile, the burden of repsonsiblity for being financially compensated for custom, original art, including logo design, belongs entirely to the creator of the work alone, UPON THE CREATION AND-OR THE SELLING OF IT (in any form), NOT after the fact, down the road when it's unproveable due to the passage of time, or the premature, improper sale of it.
(Therein lies part fo the problem . . . it's a burden of repsonsibility. Most people would rather whine about lost design money later than deal with it properly to begin with)
The computer is also not responsible for failure in this area, because sign artists have been giving away logo design for WAY too long. The computer can however, expedite the illegal use of a design not paid for, again, if the owner of the design is not careful.
So, Yes. You're supposed to, (should, must) believe this: YOU have ALLOWED YOURSELF to be ripped-off if you are giving away a custom design itslef without being compensated for it financially above the actual job itself.
In Mike's case, the customer made a threat of intent while KNOWING the work IS definitely copyrighted and Mike would have had an excellent case against her if she had followed thru.
Hence the on-going discussion about these issues.
Hope this helps David!
(edited for spelling
Thanks for the explanation Sheila. I guess I am just an old hippy with only a few years to go before retirement. Maybe what I was trying to say was that without all the buttons to push and fancy programs to play with signwriters were just that and could not afford the time to spend on design with a pencil and eraser. 90% of the time was just a small discussion with the customer, a few quick sketches for him and it just had to roll out of your head with appropriate changes being made as you went. When the guy arrived to pick up his truck/sign most time he would have his socks blown off and couldn't write the cheque quick enough. Now here is the other scenario: back in BC LOGOS were designed by "commercial artists" who were a regular PITA becuse they were designing for newspapers business cards TV etc. and pushing down some kind of roman Letraset which made it very difficult to hand write and would come out looking very sterile (a bit like a bad vinyl job) and totally unsuitable for a SIGN. I admit I can't live without computers, I bought my Gerber 4A which I still have, in 1985, but the old trade is dead and gone forever. In the 60's and 70's signwriters were few on the ground and every Friday afternoon we would all meet at the pub and have a good chat and a drink, sometimes even a hot discussion because every individual had their own style and we would all know who had done what, so there was no denying if someone had cut a price or stolen a customer. Ahh here I go getting carried away again. back to the past zzzzz. BTW this is a very good post that I will follow.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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In the end, I'm convinced we are really helping in a huge way to build the community. It's PR at it's finest. I think it's an awesome responsibility to be involved in the very image of a new business, the creator of what will be everyone's first impression of them. 
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Maybe what I was trying to say was that without all the buttons to push and fancy programs to play with signwriters were just that and could not afford the time to spend on design with a pencil and eraser. 90% of the time was just a small discussion with the customer, a few quick sketches for him and it just had to roll out of your head with appropriate changes being made as you went. When the guy arrived to pick up his truck/sign most time he would have his socks blown off and couldn't write the cheque quick enough. Now here is the other scenario: back in BC LOGOS were designed by "commercial artists" who were a regular PITA becuse they were designing for newspapers business cards TV etc. and pushing down some kind of roman Letraset which made it very difficult to hand write and would come out looking very sterile (a bit like a bad vinyl job) and totally unsuitable for a SIGN. ![[Thanks]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
BTW this is a very good post that I will follow.
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