posted
Well, I'm finally going to attempt my first gold leaf job - on a personal project.
I purchased the book "Gold Leaf Techniques" by Kent H. Smith off the Merchant site....and just received it a few days ago.
I haven't dug into the book yet, but quickly leafed through it and my initial reaction was, "Aw crap - all the Photo examples are black and white and many aren't exactly good quality."
It's a little tough distinguishing what's going on when all the tones of the photos are similar and there's no color to differentiate what's what.
The back of the book contains several full color photos....so I really wish that they would have updated the application photos with color as well.
I'll reserve final judgement till I actually read the book. I'm sure it'll make more sense and fall together at that point.
Being visual, I guess I go for a quick look at the perty pictures first...hehehe.
Looking forward to getting into this...I'll probably try a little scrap piece of something first...and will dig up some old advice on doing this from past postings.
It'll be on a blasted SignFoam substrate....I believe someone suggested they have had much better longevity with using good quality exterior latex paint for the blasted sign itself?
Hope this goes well.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Once you actually read the book the pictures are reference as well as eye candy.
Maybe the next revision they should do in comic book form hahahahaha
I have been using latex for backgrounds on hdu ... but I leaf through a mask. I can't imagine leafing directly over latex ... that stuff stays "somewhat" sticky for weeks ... at least the SW stuff I've been using.
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
One thing to keep in mind is the gold will reflect any surface discrepancies such as brush strokes and debris in your size and or under it,...the smoother the surface under the gold the better the gild,...
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
As I'm beginning to read through this book...one question comes to mind:
If I have blasted letters or elements that stand away from the sign, is it difficult to get the "leaf" along the corner where letter transitions to sign base? Or into nooks and cranies of a design element that is dimensional?
Thanks....and thanks for the info guys ^
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Thanks folks...and yes, Si, I will definately read through this book and reviewing it's instructions...good advice.
Tricia - the entire sign will probably be in the neighborhood of 36" long....here is a comp of what I will be doing, however, I am planning on reworking the "gill's" lettering.
I agree with an assessment that was made way-back-when in the portfollio sections that the "L's" have too much right lean - so I want to fix that.
Si - do you see the "nooks and crannies" I'm referring to within the left and right philigries, and also where the gold elements curve into the sign background?
In "the book" I'm reading they talk about pressing the gold leaf "into" the *size* and how then it "must be rubbed down to smooth the little wrinkles and clean off the loose gold."
What happens to those wrinkles when smoothed down? Do they create a *crease* line in the gold, kinda like if you rubbed down a vinyl letter really hard that had a bubble or pucker in it?
Thanks for your patience - can you tell I've never done this before?
posted
Todd, the gold will stick to *any* place you put the size and places you never dreamed it would stick. Heck, it'll stick there better and with a higher burnish than the places you used size.
I just gilded some spots on my fireplace mantle over the weekend and boy does that add a lot! I've done a little gilding here and there around the house, on the furniture and so on and it adds tremendous value and beauty. It's not just for signs anymore.
Bottom line is don't let this intimidate you. Surface gilding is not even in the same ballpark as glass gilding. Make sure where you are putting gold is smooth, mix a *little* lettering enamel (yellow is my choice) with your gold size, just to give it some color. Brush it on, let it tack up, lay the leaf right out of the book, burnish it with a *very* soft brush or cotton (not the synthetic stuff) balls. Vaccumn the skewings up or blow them off outside, clean up the edges with a stiff brush, do your engine turning (or not) and hang that baby up for all to admire. ...and post pix here!! Just a side note, along with correcting the slant of the l's, I would make "Gill's" a tad smaller, just my 2 pesos.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
no, they flatten down & stick & the joins can't be seen, & the excess bits of gold get broken off & brushed elsewhere. The size needs to be "not soft" though.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Todd, PLEASE keep asking questions on here! I too have bought that book & am about to go over it. I have MY first golf leaf job coming very soon!
I am sandblasting my Signfowm this week, but I need to order the leaf. I need to go over the book & see what kind of leaf to buy. My supplier sells Manetti 23 k patent gold leaf. Is this any good?
Keep asking the questions, Todd, I will keep reading so I can learn along with you!
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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I think Manetti is the best gold going. I have used it for years and am very pleased with the results.
Use LeFranc's gold size. There none finer, in my opinion.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
My only addition is somehting I was told by I think it was Kent Smith, don't mix lettering enamel with the gold size, but instead use liquid unversal tints or some dry pigment. The dryers in the lettering enamel effect the curing properties in the size.... All else sounds good though. As for what brand gold, the Manetti stuff is great for surface gilding.
-------------------- Doug Fielder Fallout Grafix Port St. Lucie, FL
16 years with a brush in my hand... Posts: 273 | From: Port St. Lucie, FL | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I have been gilding on latex for a while, and here is how I do it.
I ensure I have a good 2-4 coats of paint for a good smooth non-porus surface.
I let the paint set for a couple of days to dry well.
I lightly dust the entire sign with baby powder (talc, not corn starch), This will keep the gold from sticking where you don't want it. I blow off the excess with an air compressor. The baby powder will be on the area you will size and gild. This will not affect the gild if it is a very light coating of baby powder.
I also mix about 1 drop of yellow One Shot to about 1 tsp of LeFranc slow size.
Brush the size on nice and thin with no puddles.
Let the size set-up to a slight tack, about 12-36 hours.
I gild by using a soft cosmetic brush, and let the loose skewings fill in all the hard to reach places.
I vaccuum the loose scraps, and I don't worry about the loss. Give it a quick light blowing with compressed air. (outside)
I lightly rub the gold down with cotton to remove the loose stuff.
When done, I wipe the baby powder off with a wet soft cloth, or a rinse with water. (a lot easier than the potato, or egg white method)
I hope this helps.
Peace out, Bob
[ September 19, 2005, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Bob Kaschak ]
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1873 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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I am sandblasting the area around my letters, so they will be raised. I did this thinking it may be easier to guild, being my first time.
Todd, that layout is beautiful! Will it be harder for you to get the gold down in those nicks & crannies, using the Grain Frame technique?
Also, Kellie from Coastal Enterprises told me that she tried using hot glue in lines on a board, blasted it, then pulled the glue off, blasted lightly to take the hard edge off, then she had the same wood grain effect. Anyone ever try this? I was seriously considering trying it.
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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I second Bruce Bowers' opinion on the gold, Manetti, and the size, LeFranc. Those two products are the top of the line. Manetti gold never has any imperfections. It goes on "like butter."
Good luck, your layout looks terrific, Tricia
-------------------- Tricia M. O'Neill tricia@signs-unique.com Signs Unique 13 Swan Street Arlington, MA 02476 781-648-4804 www.signs-unique.com Posts: 25 | From: Arlington, MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Do a few test pieces first. The key to surface guilding is in learning the proper tack. No way to do that without actually doing it a few times. Most folks in their first attempts are just too anxious, it's only natural. They learn what "drowning the leaf" refers too. Best to do that on a scrap piece of wood instead of that nice sign. You will have to pay particular attention to applying size to the filligrees. The size will tend to pool up in the recesses if your not careful and will make a mess when applying the gold.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Soak in the info you've gotten in this thread and go for it! Perfection doesn't come from reading a book, no matter how many times. It comes from practice. You've chosen a great piece for your first try. No customer to complain if it isn't absolutely perfect. No deadline, so if you DO screw it up, you can regild later.
Better, read this thread three or four times, and jot down the main points. It's going to come out a lot better than you dream it will, and you'll learn a lot just in doing it.
As George points out, drowning the leaf will be your most likely mistake. Just keep avoiding that in mind, give the size plenty of time to tack up, and the project should come out fine. You're going to surprise yourself.
[ September 19, 2005, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Don Coplen ]
posted
Thanks everyone...sounds like "Light is Right" when it comes to sizing?
I appreciate the encouragement....I suspect I won't actually get to gilding (is that the correct term) for about 3 weeks....
Have to cut the signfoam, the hartco mask...shape the letters & philigries and prime, paint etc...in amongst my other duties...but it's on it's way now.
Any additional points will be well appreciated...I humbly bow to the wisdom of the masters....and will soak it all up like a sponge.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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George is right, too, re drowning. I sort of mentioned it when I said 'not soft' above too: the size WILL collect in thicker films in the nooks & crannies, and will then take longet to dry, and you will drown the gild & get holes etc.
The answer is to brush the size on and then brush it OUT of the nooks, to leave as fine a film as possible in the grooves. A puddle won't dry!
Just try on a scrap....just do it!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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I use the talc dusted background technique myself. However, I rarely use latex because I am not impressed with the quality or smoothness of latex painted backgrounds. I have been using automotive base/clear for my carved and sandblasted backgrounds for years and have been very happy with the way that they have held their appearance. If the shininess of the clear is not appropriate for a particular job, clear can be flattened.
I use pure talc instead of baby powder. Powders can have additives that can (not always) affect adhesion of your size. Close attention to the layer of talc is important because if the application is too heavy, you will end up with high and low spots in your size causing an uneven gild due to the variations in the tack resulting in a poor quality gild.
When doing sandblasted signs with raised letters and a blasted background, I try to incorporate an outline around the letters to be painted after the gilding process. The reason for this is that you don't have to lay size all the way out the edge of the letter. If you get size slopped over the edge, it is very difficult to get the size out of the blasted area.
Another thing I do with this type of sign is to airbrush a darker shade of the background color around the letters. This creates a halo effect around the letters and makes them really pop.
I like to have a test piece with an identically prepared surface as my sign is. This will allow you size to tack up exactly as it is on your sign. When your size is ready to gild, the size will emit a high pitched squeak when you drag your knuckle across it. experience will be an excellent teacher here to let you know when it is time to gild.
I cut my patent leaf into strips for doing carved letters and use a small fitch to jam it into tight corners. I use a cosmetic brush to lightly get rid of the excess leaf and a big ol' wad of cotton to burnish my gild down.
When you surface gild an area, after rubbing the gold off the sheet, use the blank tissue and hold it over (laying lightly on the surface) the gilded area. This will show up any holidays (gaps in your gild) you may have and allow you patch it up immediately.
If you do not patch your holidays right away, you will collect strands of cotton in your size and make a bugger of a mess. Also, if you wait too long, the tack will change and you will have different burnishes than the surrounding area.
The longer you wait for your size to tack, the brighter your gild will be. If you put it on too soon (known as flooding or drowning your leaf) you will end up with a dull gild.
Remember to final burnish your gold all in the same direction. Vertically gilds will reflect light from the sides while a horizontal burnish will reflect light from top and nbottom. This is due to the fact that cotton burnishing will put minute grooves or scratches in the gold and it is actually the scratches that are reflecting the light. Which direction you use will depend entirely on your light source. Typically, though, horizontal burnishing is desired.
Using a stencil, you can actually burnish your leaf to look like it is 3-D. Bruce Deveau is one of the finest craftsman at using this technique. Karen Souza is another sign artist who does excellent gold leaf work. Bob and Marcia Peach do some really cool gilding techniques on dimensional signs as well. I would recommend that you look at their work and emulate their techniques.
I can't wait to see the finished signs! Good luck!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Wow...I'm absolutely impressed with the knowledge and techniques you're willing to share....thanks guys!
Bruce - what specific kind of automotive paint do you use for your backgrounds? You mean like, PPG or something?
And, using my sign posted above as an example....how would you apply the various colors to: the background, the borders, etc? Is it all sprayed, or do you actually brush some of that paint on?
What do you personally use as a primer coat, both for the background areas and the areas under the gilded portions?
Thanks again folks!
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I'm barely one step ahead of you Todd, but I did read that book & did carve & gild some HDU letters (well, actually numbers)for theFKAB group panel.
Several folks mention the idea of doing a test piece, but what wasn't clear to me on the posts above, unless I missed it, was a good suggestion that regardless of any previous testing & experimenting you may have already done... at the time you are ready to gild your finished sign... put some size on a couple areas of another "test" piece at the same moment you size the sign. This way, when you think it is just the right tack, you can gild the test piece. You may get a better idea, as a fellow beginner, by actually gilding the test, instead of trusting your knuckle squeek on your first real gilded sign. Also, as much information as people offer for getting the size just right... I was astounded at how much gold stuck to my background areas that have no size on them, & how hard it was to remove... I probably tried the talc idea, or the eggwhite(?) ...or was it an old potato(?) chinese maybe.. I don't know, I would probably try to mask it myself being such a beginner... but don't take my advice, just the nugget of truth that gold sticks where there ain't no size, as Ricky said.
posted
Doug - that's a dang good idea I never considered: Prepare some scrap along with the good sign....and test it first! Thanks..that makes very good sense to me.
I'm still wondering how wrinkled gold can be burnished smoothly with no trace of a crease...I'll have to trust the experts on that one....
Thanks.
Edit: Sweeeeeet FKAB logo! What is the background story on that? I kind of get the jist that it was some sort of group effort?
Double Edit:
I was thinking of cutting the side gold flourishes along with the attached oval...as a separate piece and then gluing it to the blasted signboard (which of course was protected in the areas where the flourishes and oval would be glued).....and then cutting and gluing the shaped "Gill's" pieces on as well....
What do you think of this? Refer to the illustration above.....I want to make sure those elements really "stick out."
As far as protecting the background from gold sticking, i've found gilder's rouge to be the best (thanks to Billy Pickett). It cleans off easily (lightly dampen a kleenex with windex and turn often). It works on latex and one shot and doesn't dull the finish.
Also, i use lefranc slow size and let sit for 48 hours. I used to wait 24 hours but last year in AC i learned from Francis Lestingi that 48 is better.
Thanks, Steve
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
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Wow...48 hours....having no experience yet in this, I think of "size" in terms of spray adhesive....which gets tacky within a few minutes and after about 15 minutes looses it's adhesion power.
Size is still tacky/sticky enough after that long to adhere the gold leaf eh?
That's cool.....I'll have to really force myself to trust and not rush.
I'll probably start cutting my HDU board this weekend.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Todd, you could literally wad the gold up and stick it down in little balls, rub it with a soft brush then burnish it with a cotton ball and it would be totally seamless. The "3M Super 77" brand size leaves a dull finish and creates too much static electricity. The best, most absolutely incredible gold size is readily available, is totally free, dries instantly, has an open window time of months, has the highest adhesion and most brilliant burnish. To get this incredible gold size just rub your finger on the side of your nose and touch your sign. The gold will stick to it immediately and only aqua regia will take it off. Cotton gloves are a definate goodie when gilding to keep this from happening.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I am going to use One Shot on mine, & the customer doesn't care if it is flat paint or glossy, so I was going to make it easier on myself & do it straight. If I DID want to flateen it, I could use that talc to flatten the paint, right? How much talc to the paint?
This is exciting! I hope to get my blank cut by the weekend, too, Todd. Got things jumping in the way, here!
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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