posted
I kinda got the idea for this off Mr. Meyer's thread, but it really hit me like a ton of bricks!
I have carefully crafted an image where I live, doing the best I can, being conscious of every design I do. My philosophy is to try and do each job as if it were for my own business, and I take pride in doing it.
The other day, my landlord said she had heard my rep was that I was "very good, but expensive". At the time, I smiled when she said that, thinking "that's just what I want to hear."
And in theory it is. But am I missing what the customer base wants? Am I portraying an image that keeps some OUT of the door ? Not just the price shoppers (good riddance I say), but the intimidated and the uninformed?
It's worrisome. I am doing really well this year. My average sale is way up, and I am doing a lot of the stuff I want to do, but I am also seeing more signs than ever go up that we didn't do, and could've done better.
I was talking to Bob Rochon the other day about the fact that we probably try too hard to please ourselves--that the customers don't even "notice" half the time.
But wouldn't it be ironic, if all our BEST effort was actually keeping some folks away?
[ September 10, 2005, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
posted
Yes, I'd agree with that 100% I've had a few cases were the customer has told me they want something simple, or they want something that I know just won't work for advertising. I told one guy why his layout wouldn't work and presented a better design. We had already agreed on a price. I drove by his place a few weeks later and there was the god-awful original. When I questioned him about it later, he said my price was the same as the other guy, but I wasn't listening to what HE wanted. ooops. More often, people are pleased with the upgrades, so that is okay by me.
I have learned that when people want simple, they are satisfied with something simple. The ego in me still wants to give them more though!!
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Boy, you guys are both right, on everything! About 99% of customers are morons and will shoot themselves in the foot if you let them. If we stop them from doing it, sometimes our efforts are appreciated and sometimes not. A lot of the time it just comes back to bite us in the arse. "No good turn goes unpunished."
Market positioning is always a problem for a sign company. I guess you can only have one reputation so we have to pick what we want that perception to be. And it has to be a short one, like a tag line too. We truly don't get the respect we deserve in this business. I struggle every day with losing jobs to some hack across town that's been making signs for a year or so because I'm a few bucks more expensive. I look at the banners this company cranks out and there are two lines of copy, one jammed against the top and the other jammed against the bottom with a big gaping hole in the middle. I just want to chew my friggin tongue off sometimes when I see crap like that and know that this hack is taking money out of my pocket and the stupid customers are completely mindless to even know the difference. OK, this officially qualifies as a rant.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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It all depends if you WANT to do the simple stuff too.
If all you do is higher end stuff and you have plenty of work to keep it going, why change it? You're working less, earning more, and doing something you enjoy which is what every person on this planet wants.
If you were having trouble selling the high end stuff then it would be time to re-evaluate the market against what you have to offer.
Do you really want a new rep of doing simple stuff as well? putting yourself right back into competition with others that are eager to lowball on price because that's the only bargaining chip they have on commodity signs?
Do you see Cadillac dealers selling Suburbans? No, not when they can sell ESV's (the same truck) for $23,000 more simply because the public perceives them as more valuable, because GM has put that "energy" out there.
Did you know that Lexus exists ONLY in the US and Canada? The rest of the world knows Lexus as TOYOTA. Lexus exists because Toyota's first offerings to the US were cheap cars. They could not shake that stigmata in the US. They had to create a new identity, Lexus, so they could offer their luxury cars in the US market. Same goes for Honda/Acura and Nissan/Infinity.
If you have a market that supports the kind of work you like to do, man stick with it!
**Edit**
But, if you do want to build another rep, I'd suggest creating a whole new identity, right next to your existing one.
I even have a business name for you.. it would get you a ton of business:
Simple Sign-mon - You might have to grow some dreadlocks though
[ September 10, 2005, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I find that I often make a better profit margin on the quick, simple jobs so I never say "no" when some one asks for something simple. It's often a nice break from to do something mindless for easy cash.
I've had low-end clientele completely oblivious to the fact I do high-end signs as well as high-end clientele oblivious to the fact I can knock out basic vinyl/coroplast/banner and have gone elsewhere for substandard work.
Sometimes I feel like a broken record in educating clientele and still the odd plum job falls through the cracks! Bugs me!!!!!
-------------------- Happy Signing...... Marty
M.F. (Marty) Happy Signmaker Since 1974 Happy Ad Sign & Design Regina SK, Canada S4N 5K4 306-789-9567 happyad@sasktel.net www.happyad.ca
Get Happy & Get Noticed! Posts: 773 | From: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I think some of you have great points. When you are considered GOOD but EXPENSIVE, some of the potential customers will not darken your door - especially for the quicky signs.
I know that a 36"x 72" carved Urethane with guilded letters has a certain value, the same goes for an 18x24 corplast sign with a digital print. When you do a good job with quality design the value is even more. I don't skimp on quality, and I don't skimp on quoting a price either. I sure don't get all the jobs I quote on.
Now, when the public perceives your shop as a Cadillac dealership your not going to be quoting on the full range of signs. People are cheap and are ready to cut corners whenever they can. They will drive right past the Cadillac dealership to look at the 1988 Grand Am with no air conditioning and door dents at the dealership down the street.
I will be the first to say 'I want it all'. When I see a business I know with a new sign that I didn't get to quote on - I AM ****ED!
I don't know what the answer is. It's not whether you choose to do the simple stuff, it's whether they want YOU to do it.
I would much rather be known as the good but expensive sign shop, than the sign whore with 2 colors of vinyl and an $800 plotter.
Maybe we should try to get it so you have to be qualified and lisenced to be able to make a sign. That should weed out about 93% of the shops.
[ September 10, 2005, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Jerry VanHorn ]
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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posted
The thing is that the client that has ordered 'high-end' signs often needs temporary 'low-end' disposable signage for sales and the like. Do you send them to another shop where they can develop a business relationship and perhaps lose all future signage orders because that shop may be more enthusiastic about doing everything?
I think not! A sign shop has to be somewhat more versatile than a Cadillac dealer. Nothing wrong with up-selling but why alienate clients by forcing something down their throats or refusing to fill their needs.
I have done some very expensive signs but I certainly don't turn my mose up at cranking out a cheap vinyl sign if that is all the client wants. And often my profit is better on such jobs because I slam it out without the effort into perfection that I would for a high-end sign.
Often that little job will be a great break from a long intensive project.
-------------------- Happy Signing...... Marty
M.F. (Marty) Happy Signmaker Since 1974 Happy Ad Sign & Design Regina SK, Canada S4N 5K4 306-789-9567 happyad@sasktel.net www.happyad.ca
Get Happy & Get Noticed! Posts: 773 | From: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I'm sorry if I made it seem like I turn my nose up to the person who only wants a cheap coroplast sign. We will do it all. We still keep the old Ioline plugged in for such customers.
The REAL PROBLEM is the varied prices a customer sees when they are shopping. The (as I like to call them) sign whores not only charge way too little for their product, but are out of business within a year because they didn't make a profit. And, while they were in their mood of 'acting' like a sign guy ruin the customers long after they are gone. I can name at least 15 people in my little area that have crashed and burned with their dreams of sign stardom.
Even the HIGH END signs get whored out. My competition quoted against me for two LARGE sandblasted cedar signs this week at HALF MY COST. And I am not overpriced. It was a total of 40 sq ft of 1.5" thick cedar. My customer questioned the price difference. I couldn't say much except we use vertical grain material and top quality primers and paints. Our installs are well below frost level and will look good for years to come. And to ask if BOB uses vertical grain. (I know he doesn't)
It's not that we are too good. It's that we will not give it away for nothing.
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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posted
I have a different approach to this business. I don't make signs....I help businesses grow by making them look good. If that involves pounding U-channel posts into the parking lot I will do it. If it involves designing and procuring a trade show booth I will do that to.
I have one client, a combination pharmacy and medical arts building, that I have been helping them grow since 1993. The first job was to make some 12" x 18" aluminum signs that said "no skateboarding in the parking lot". Charged them $30 a sign plus $10 to install it. From there we went to changing tenant names on the directory and suite doors. Over the years we have done about 100 projects for them including...
A display case to show off compounding products. Rehabed and updated the backlit pylon. Made magnetic signs for the delivery vehicles. Decorated two vehicles with digital images. Dimensional letters for the pharmacy counter. A prescription drop box for another medical centre they were involved with. 15 minute parking only signs Stairway signs that promote the pharmacy services. An exterior directory system with all tenants listed. Two awning faces 3'x 20' each with the new logo. 3000 plastic pharmacy cards that reward regular customers. Old English style parking signs for their employee parking lot across the street. Spray painted curbing with RESERVED. Gold leaf on glas promoting compounding services. Store hours signs (twice over the years with several hour changes). Oneway arrows. Signs for the parking lot gates. No trespassing signs. Banners for trade show displays. A community notice board to cover security grates. No fence climbing signs.
and a few more that I can't remember.
I am sure glad that I didn't turn down that little No Skateboarding project. I am sure I have done at least $40,000 over the past 10 years.
When you send a customer out the door without satisfying his need you have sent him to start a relationship with another sign shop. It is unlikely you will ever see him again.
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I've pondered this question on occasion... especially in the few times we were short on work.
We don't do 'ordinary' signs in our shop. We aren't equipped to do it and simply don't offer that service. I happily recommend the few customers who ask for these signs to others.
As we are currently trying to break into our 'local' market with our outrageous signs its a tough job to get the word out that we do SIGNS - even our specialty type stuff. And I'm doing everything I can think of to spread the word.
In the end I don't believe we hurt our business by turning away the small stuff... and in ONLY doing our high end signs.
It's a niche market, without a doubt, but I believe there is more than enough customers to keep us busy. The word will get out as we put up more and more projects.
I'd much rather be positioned at this end of the market than the other end where folks shop based on price alone.
And I'll happily earn the reputation for the best and most expensive product too. At least the customers who do find me know what to expect.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Take a look at these signs. They are located in Nashville, Indiana. Everyone is a work of art done by my favorite sign designer, Gary Anderson. It's hard to believe, but there are still a bunch of signs in Nashville that are just plain ugly, weeds in a bed of beautiful flowers.
Why? I wonder if some people out there are just blind to good sign design. When it comes to things like ballet, opera and rap music, I'm in the same boat. I just can't see the beauty others do.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
The sad realtiy is what happened AFTER Gary did this sign, Truely Beautiful work. Just look how they hacked it up by adding to it. Some people suck.
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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Last night I brought my truck to a race track. People asked how much it would cost to do similar work (realistic flames) on a race car.
Today I went to a Mustang Club show. Many of these people had thousand of dollars tied up them, no different than some drivers do at the track.
This is where the perception of value kicks in.
The same prices were given because it involves the same amount of material and labor to both car owners. The race car owner sees it as impractical for something that's gonna get beat up and not last long, so he's going to say "That's good looking, but expensive." The owner of the "Elanor" found it to be reasonable since he felt that it was good looking and good quality materials were used so it would be long lasting.
Barry,
quote: But wouldn't it be ironic, if all our BEST effort was actually keeping some folks away?
Only the people who don't know the value of the work.
At the race track, there was little attention paid to my fund raising efforts despite everyone knowing me for years and that I would do nice stuff for a donation. only one person did all night. At the Mustang show, I won a third place trophy in the truck division.
If I scared off the racers, I'll be more than happy to attract a classic Mustang.
It's not only about what and where you market your stuff, but to who as well. Rapid
PS: The "Elanor" stole the show!
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Seems what I've learned from this site and from working with people is that there's many pieces of the pie. And you can't have all the pieces. Sounds like you've got a good thing going Barry.
-------------------- signs Posts: 535 | From: pa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I sometimes wonder if a person may lose more work because of his or her personality, than if they are too good for the market. Marketing is the key to business, but pride in your work is good for the soul. If you let the customer dictate your soul, you lose. Remember, in fifty years, everything you own today will be in someone elses name.
-------------------- Bob Nugent Hotrodsonline.com Gainesville, GA 30506 hotrod@hotrodsonline.com Posts: 46 | From: Gainesville, Georgia | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I still believe the answer to this dilemma is to open up a second shop, one for the customized, high end stuff and one that sells a standardized line of products like coros and mags. Cheaper products do not need to be badly designed, they are just geared towards the people who do not have the budget to buy the high end products.
My own intentions to do so failed because of a lack of funding and trouble finding a reliable person to run a second location, not because the idea wasn't good in itself. If the oportuniy presented itself again, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
posted
bob - you are very correct. I know I have lost business due to my personalty.
I'm sorry if I come across rude or insenitive to customers needs sometimes. I don't discriminate, if they want a $20 sign or a $25,000 sign we can and will do it. I try to educate the customer and make a sign that will work for their needs. Jennifer, my wife, says I try to change their minds too often. I am not trying to upsell, just make a sign that will get the attention they deserve. In a lot of cases their ideas are awful for a sign layout. I know my attitude changes, I can feel it, when they are trying to chisel my price or start talking about what the other 'sign guy'.
The worst part about my personality is that I say what I think, no matter what. I need to learn to hold me tounge.
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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posted
I wonder about all of the above, and while I would like to do just premium all the time, I agree with Marty that sometimes there's more profit in a quickie. There's less stewing and you don't encounter an overly fussy customer who can be overbearing at times. Too many of these folks in a row can make a good man go bad.
During the time when it was still all hand done, a customer could easily spot excellence because letters were straight, smooth and proportions were pleasing on better signs. Now with plotters and printers making even ugly signs straight and smooth, the customer has to know something about design, form and function to be able to tell the difference -- or the project has to really smack them in the head or somehow please them. Sometimes very simply thought out and uncomplicated signs without all the outlines, fades, shadows and flourishes are going to reach out a grab your attention over the intricate time consuming designs. Sometimes it's more difficult to make a simple sign that really reaches out and grabs you.
I really think most customers can't tell the difference and should stay out of the design process all together. We are battling over the good customers and there are more of us and less of them. So sometimes you have to swallow your pride and do the mindless quickie job to help pay the bills.
I find it therapy to do those mindless jobs, because I've only got half a brain left, so why overstrain what I've got. It's just I've been struggling to establish myself as a premium sign maker all these years and now I may have caused folks to not even consider me.
I'll tell you this -- I want to be semi-retired like Si, before I get too old to enjoy it and then I can give a hoot about it all.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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