-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Curtis, I thought I had dodged the bullet, I had no problems in the first go-round, but...
I just had a truck lettering job return that I had done in Feb/March. The Black is peeling & shrinking but the Apple Green and Apricot are fine. All High Perfomance Vinyl, all Avery. OF COURSE it's a layered job, so I have to remove and replace bothe layers. Before you go thinking "it's the layers, and the black is absorbing more heat...", the Black is failing as the first layer AND the second layer. Equal opportunity shrinkage.
My own truck is doing the same. Yep, lettered it around the same time.
Now I have a call in to my supplier because a roll of Red is shrinking on the roll! I can identify THIS roll from THIS supplier, but I have a couple of suppliers, so I'll probably eat the bad rolls from before.
Now I'm paranoid that many jobs that I've done will be coming back to bite me. Luckily, I guess, I wasn't that busy back then. The problem is that I've been VERY busy since then.
Tick, tick, tick... !!!???
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Can we say,, Avoid the exposure?. I would avoid all possible chance of catching AID's Herpes, or Vinyl failure by staying way from exposure.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Avery vinyl in question was made during a small time frame as a distributor told me...and that was quite a while ago now.
I fee completely safe in buying Avery and like their vinyls, although I was leary like everyone else around the time the rash of problems cropped up.
Mainly, now if you buy Avery, simply look at the edge of the roll...if it hasn't visibly receeded, it's most likely new stock and no need to worry. That's what I was told.
Avery has no desire to continue putting bad vinyl into the system....if you get some crappy vinyl now, it's more likely to be old stock from the "Bad period" that the distributor has had sitting around.
That's my take. I love the way it weeds (like butter) and it releases nicely from the liner, unlike 3M - whose vinyl is great but takes more effort to weed in my opinion.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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gene i had the same problem with avery A8 BLACK & layered. this is the way it looked when finished. and that was nov 2003. the engine craped out and the guy traded it..so i dont have to RE-DO it...this is what it looked like in june 2005. i knew where i bought the vinyl and sent them pics..i got a $47.00 credit wow.....thatdidnt cover the GREEN i would had to replace also....NO MORE AVERY A8!! 3M, ORACAL 751, and if you have never tried it AMERIBANS PERMACAST,limited in colors but an outstanding vinyl.
[ August 15, 2005, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Why do you guys do this to yourselves??? Why not just throw it in the trash where it belongs and write them off? Say it slowly with me "A v e r y v i n y l S U C K S."
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: The Avery vinyl in question was made during a small time frame as a distributor told me...and that was quite a while ago now
How do you know that? What makes you sure that someone who is having a NEW problem with NEW material got some OLD vinyl? How do you know that a second and a third seperate company having a NEW problem with NEW material is using OLD material that was supposedly recalled and picked up.. As we were all TOLD that would hapen...
Ricky, I think that some are using the problem material again because they do not have local access to other brands.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Curtis, I, like others, believed that Avery had the problem licked. I missed the first round of bad vinyl, probably because I wasn't too busy at the time. By the time I GOT busy, all the bad vinyl should have been out of the market. I never used ANY older "questionable" stock for permanent signs, just coro, banners, etc.
THIS round of vinyls has me concerned.
Okay then, what is the best vinyl now available?
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Gene, since you asked...in my opinion the best around is 3M High Performance. It's just about the only thing I've used for 15 years and I've yet to have a problem.
At some points I have used other brands in order to match a color, but they have never come close to 3M for durability.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Alright, I have to be really sensitive here because I know there was some really legitimate problems that caused conflict with customers. I don't disagree that this occurred nor badly handled by Avery.
Avery vinyl is NOT "junk".....
I've heard a lot of people talk about the old SparCal vinyl and how good it was.....well, Sparcal was 90+% Avery vinyl...always was.
Avery Vinyl is used every single day in quantities you cannot even imagine in OEM RV, marine, and automotive markets and aftermarkets.
The chances that the vinyl used in automotive aftermarket graphic kits you may have purchased from Universal or Sharpline are in the high 90+ percentile as well.
They had a "blip" that sadly put many sign folks in a bad position and I don't for a minute say that if it were I who was affected, I wouldn't be gun-shy. Heck, I wasn't affected and I changed to 3M for a while just to make sure I didn't have a problem.
But I'm using Avery with cautious confidence now...cautious meaning that I buy from a guy who knows how to inspect Avery vinyl before he brings it out to me...and he has told me what to look for:
1.) On cast vinyl, visually inpect your vinyl rolls to make sure that the vinyl hasn't shrunk on the roll. 2.) Some apparent shrinkage (very minute) can appear to occur with any vinyl....due to the liner soaking up moisture and literally "growing." 3.) If you see a trace amount of what appears to be shrinkage....run your finger over the exposed liner - - if it feels tacky, as if the adhesive was left behind....then you probably got an old roll from old stock....otherwise...you're probably ok.
If this seems like too much trouble, which I can definately see that point of view, then 3M or some other manufacturer might be a better choice.
Like I say, I feel confident that the problem has been resolved...and will continue buying Avery - and 3M depending upon my needs.
You think you have doubts - think of how the astronauts that just went up in the space shuttle must have felt...
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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GENE....."3M, ORACAL 751, and if you have never tried it AMERIBANS PERMACAST,limited in colors but an outstanding vinyl." call AMERIBAN 1-800-654-8405...get set up on the same thing i got which is $100 orders are FREE SHIPPING...they sell 3M, ORACAL, ARLON, and their own brand PERMACAST... also the got intermediate vinyls... AVERY, 3M, ORACAL, CALON, and 2 of their own brand BANNERCAL for really cheap shot lived signs(but the yellow is one of the best for windows)and SHINE RITE...good stuff...
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I had a couple problems with the last go-round of Avery, but nothing major. Boy, was I nervous to check out my firetrucks with the signgold on top, but I dodged the bullet there. Having been assured this problem was taken care of, I continued to use Avery as I love the gloss, feel and colors.
Just went through the vinyl I picked up with the edge last week, about half was Avery and over half of that is already in the garbage due to shrinkage. I checked the tags as I pitched it and MOST was made after the previous problem was allegedly taken care of. Oh yeah, it wasn't just A8 either... A6 and A9 show serious shrinkage too. I had to quit sorting through it when I got to the 50 yarder of Sapphire Blue (my fav blue). It was too depressing.
In my shop, today will forever be known as
"Buh-Bye Avery Day"
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3515 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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As I have said before, I had problems with gold reflective on 5 cops cars that I did. The black was ok but the gold started peeling off within two weeks.
Now I have a wrapped bus that has come back...Avery EZ. I did it in March 2004 and I heard back from the customer in 6 months. The vinyl was coming off and the ink was very faded. Unfortunately for me, I can't put in a claim to Avery (even though I still have some scrap)because I had another company order the vinyl and print the job. The company that I had print it was recommended by a supplier but I found them to do shoddy work and they never sent me every piece that I needed. So needless to say they won't put in a claim for me.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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I use Avery ONLY for color matches, and when I looked at my Avery sample chart, what a relief! The A8 page is stuck to the page facing it! What a relief I use Permacast and 3M. The A9 sample look ok, though. Check out the true shadow...it's the worst, gummiest mess in my whole catalog. What a relief I don't use Avery.
Frank
-------------------- Frank Smith Frank Smith Signs Albany, NY www.franksmithsigns.com Posts: 807 | From: Albany, NY USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: 1.) On cast vinyl, visually inpect your vinyl rolls to make sure that the vinyl hasn't shrunk on the roll.
I've got a roll here that looked just fine when i got it, cut an amount from it and thankfully only used on temproary jobs. At least no one called me back. Now some time later this roll has shrunk about 1/2 inch total on the sides of this roll.
Problem is I couldn't remember where i got it. So i never as able to return it.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I don't have any Avery problems....stopped buying it last year after the last fiasco. I also obsereved shrinkage of A8 on a job for a very good client, who luckily has not noticed it....yet. I wouldn't use Avery now even if I had a free lifetime supply. I really liked it, too. Note past tense. I'll stick with Calon II or Gerber, thank you very much, cuz at least they stick. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I agree with Jill, I really LIKED Avery, but do not trust it. Can't afford to.
I never had major shrinkage on the rolls, but you should see some of the projects coming back now. Major shrinkage once it was out in the heat of the sun.
You cannot tell me the distributor cannot tell from the lot number if it was an old roll "overlooked" during the recall (oops, there wasn't a recall I was told, just a courtesy replacement of old inventory) or a "after the problem" roll.
I am spending more money now on 3M and had to raise prices, but when a customer questions the price increase, I can tell them I use 3M and they recognize the name and associate it with quality.
I used Avery since Universal went out and what makes me angry is the way the problem was handled. We all can have product or service problems, it's how it's handled that matters. I was treated like I was trying to get something for nothing. I was told, "if it's not shrinking on the rolls, you don't have a problem." I have similar pictures as posted earlier to prove different.
Pam
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 467 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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if Homer Simpson opened a vinyl sign shop, let's call it Signs by Simpson, and he was asked what vinyl has performed comensurate to cost........quote: "hhhhmmmmmm Permacast". with sprinkles !
-------------------- mark zilliox mark z signs 8425 pushaw station rd. owings md. 20736 301-855-5407 thezs@earthlink.net http://www.markzsigns.com Posts: 348 | From: maryland | Registered: May 2003
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Great idea Todd... we'll buy vinyl, subject each roll to careful scrutiny, then let each roll age for six months before using, just to make sure it hasn't shrunk a bit.
... NOT
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
I agree with Ricky, everytime time you use it, for the next year, you worry! Why do you put yourself through this? I used Avery twice. The two times I used it, I had to do both Sheriff cars over. I will never touch this "junk" again! I don't have a worry now when I do a job. Just look at the posts that have been on here about Avery. I can't believe people still use it.
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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I get this feeling Avery isn't the preferred vinyl here...
Pam - Most of Universal's vinyl is Avery. If you like 3M, but are paying much more than when you purchased Avery, check out Ameriban @ 800-654-8405.
Their 3M high performance vinyl pricing is identical to Avery. They also have good service.
Mike - in one sentance, you're making me re-think the Avery thing....what you say makes perfect [common] sense and your point is noted.
Maybe it's that "buttery" stretchy, easy weeding feeling Avery has (that I liked so much) that is also the cause of it's shrinkage? Maybe it's too plyable and can't hold it's shape? Hmmmmm. I'll think about this.
Note to OP: a few years back, Ameriban had a bad batch of their Permacast vinyl in both black and white. I had a (multi-color/multi-layer) job that literally fell off the unit. Ameriban not only acknowledged the problem, but they paid me for my materials, time, and labor to redo the job - which was great customer service. I did go back to using Permacast without incident after that.....not sure who makes that "brand" of vinyl for them though.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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In our shop we use Oracal 751/851 for all solid and metallic color jobs, signs or vehicles, that need to last more than 6 months. We letter on an average 300 trucks a year and we have never had a problem. The extra cost of premium vinyl is well worth being able to sleep at night.
For our reflective work we have always used Avery reflective. In the last 15 years we only had one problem, a batch of white reflective turned into what looked like clear vinyl with a little baby powder behind it. The Avery reps came and looked at the job and gave us two 50 yd. rolls of white reflective for our trouble and expense. I have since heard of another shop that had the same problem on some police cruisers.
I just got a contract for 10 police cars and am now worried about using the Avery reflective. Has anyone else had this problem recently?
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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Lou, I do about 10 police cars a year and with 3M have had no problems.....ever! Avery Reflective, used it twice (supplier was out of 3M red)and had to do both of them over.........with 3M. Why worry!!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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Pam, I have rolls here that were made AFTER the bad batches and it has shrunk considerably. I agree the suppliers should check the lot numbers just to be careful, but that only works if they are given true information as to which lots are bad.
It's not a result of the 'buttery' feel either. I have rolls from 2003 that have no shrinkage.
Mike, I had the same thoughts as you did. I can just imagine the look on a customer's face when you need an odd color for their job & tell them it'll be 6 months.
Back to sorting vinyl so I can go on a dumpster run.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Not only did I have to re-do 9 sheriff cars because of Avery vinyl, I lost the darn account because of it; that's about $3,000 every single year. You can tell your customers "We don't make the vinyl." til you're blue in the face but they don't hear it. I'm using 3M for the Goober Edge and Ameribans Permacast and Shine Rite for the rest of it.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Damn, I just bought a roll of Avery IPM 2000 EZ for some digital printing. Has anyone had any problems with it? I haven't opened the box yet, so I would like to know of any of you used this certain one?
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Cisco, Laura Butler posted above that she had a digital print on EZ that faded and was falling off.
Check out Gregory. Good service, free freight, a killer ordering program they'll send you to order any materials and supplies from your computer with a first order $25 off. They carry 3M, Oracal, and the dreaded Avery and their own secret label called Trendfilm whose colors match 3M's colors amazingly well but has the paper liner. I've been using it for over 10 years without a single failure. Nice price too. vinyldirect.com and they ship out of Kansas and North Carolina.
posted
Serious question, I never asked anyone during the past two years about the Avery failures; Did anyone apply any of the defective Avery films with Rapid Tac or TacII and still have same failures ?
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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During the last go round I posted some negative feedback on Avery (my shop truck and another job I did is shrinking badly). Beacon Graphics was great and replaced all my shrinking avery with new (non-shrinking?) avery.
Well I guess the avery rep was reading the last round of posts and called me to apologize and tell me that he was going to send me some 50% off coupons. By the end of the conversation when I guess he realized I wasn’t a big player, the “some 50% off coupons” dropped to one coupon and that was only after I reminded him AND I NEVER DID GET THAT COUPON. Great marketing huh.
FWIW I use Oracal 851 because I saw some good comparisons in Atlantic City last year (albeit from the Oracal booth – doh) and I have a really good supplier near me.
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
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Dave Sherby, Gergory is where I bought the Avery IPM 2000EZ. Hope it's the upgraded one from what Laura used.
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Roger, We always install our reflective dry , but Rapid-Tac is always used for wet applications of the other vinyls. Luckily that Avery reflective problem was our only material failure.
Tony, thanks for the advice, I think we will be using 3M on this job, not only do we do the cruisers now but we also get to repair them as they smash them up which in our town is very often.
BTW Tony, I didn't forget about that copy of "The Last Open Road", I'll be at the Glen in Sept. for the Indy car race and I'll look you up then.
Louie
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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Yes roger I used rapid tac and prep prior to installing the Avery vinyl that failed on one job and I have used both Avery vinyl and rapic tac products on virtually every job in the past 5 years.
I would still use both Avery vinyl and Rapid tac products. Both manufacturers have stood behind their products and I will continue to use them until such time as they dont stand behind their product.
Imagine this people. You own a chevy, ford, or dodge vehicle and its in the shop for warranty repairs or worse yet a recall, would you buy another one, knowing that there was a problem with the last one? The majority of car owners buy another vehicle from that same automaker within a ten year period. Oh wait, I forgot, it cost you time and money to take it in for repairs that day too didnt it?
get real!!!!!!
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Roger, I for one did NOT use the Rapid Tac. Only because I almost always apply dry. (I have used the product though when a wet application was necessary. No problems.)
I do seriously believe that your product couldn't possibly hurt OR help. I don't think anything could. It's not just a matter of the adhesion failing, it is a total Vinyl Failure. It curls and shrinks and peels. The adhesive is leaving the back of the VINYL not the substrate.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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roger, go look at the pics i posted on a previous post. on this truck i did use some rapid tac...because of the ridges on the truck. but your product didnt have anythink to do with the 1/4- 3/8" of shrinkage on the black vinyl that i experianced. on the single black 99 i did not use rapid tac on them, only where i had to wrap the vinyl over the ridge did i use the rapid tac...
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Harris, my reasoning is that Avery said the problem was taken care of and yet vinyl made AFTER that lie is shrinking horribly. I stuck by avery after the first round but after this I'm not sure if I'm more ****ed at the shrinking vinyl or at being lied to & told the problem was taken care of.
Roger, I've seen it on stuff I used Rapid Tac on, stuff I did dry and on the rolls.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3515 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Just as the origianl Avery failures were beginning to surface, I had already noticed that it was shrinking on my truck. It was A8 used under Signgold.
Following the threads here in Letterville that appeared shortly after and seeing that Avery was not being very consistant in how they were compensating sign shop owners for the inherent losses of materials and labor (Call the manufacturer - call the distributor - call the manufacturer, etc) I burned the stuff out on race cars and switched to Calon and Arlon for the long term jobs.
Why? It hasn't been failing and I sleep better at night.
....nuff said. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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and that was nov 2003. the engine craped out and the guy traded it..so i dont have to RE-DO it...this is what it looked like in june 2005. 
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
I checked the tags as I pitched it and MOST was made after the previous problem was allegedly taken care of. Oh yeah, it wasn't just A8 either... A6 and A9 show serious shrinkage too. I had to quit sorting through it when I got to the 50 yarder of Sapphire Blue (my fav blue). It was too depressing.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
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