posted
Sorry, Glenn, but I have to disagree. We as a nation are already seeing fairly heavy duty price increases, particularly in transportation/freight charges. In order to stay in business these cost increases have to be passed along. aka "cost-push" inflation, as opposed to "demand-pull" inflation.
When you referred to Greenspan and the Federal Reserve adjusting interest rates in order to hold down inflation, this goes back about 60 years or so when the Federal government adopted Keynesian policy. About all this means is that prior to that time, governments in general had a hands off way of trying to regulate their respective economies. Let the market regulate the economy.
Keynes' notion was that deficit spending was---or could be-- a good thing. Public works, government funded to shoot for lower unemployment, etc. He put this idea to FDR in the middle 30s, and later FDR came around to his way of thinking with some reluctance. Middle of the Depression and all. Then WW2 came along, or at least the US' involvement, and unemployment fell from God only knows where, to something on the order of one percent.
Since that time the government has tried to fine tune the economy by way of interest rates, and the money supply---and not always with good results. (LBJ's guns and butter during Vietnam.)
Enough about that.
Two other things about energy prices. If taxes on fuel are based on retail price before taxes are added in, then the higher the price, the greater amount of taxes collected. A windfall for government---more money to spend---or heaven forbid reduce deficits. Given all that, why would goverment be interested in seeing energy prices go down---at least until the public begins to really scream?
The second thing IMHO is the distinct possibility of the oil companies artificially rigging a shortage by way of "problems with refineries, downtime for maintenance, etc." It was only three or four years ago that this turned out to be the case with West Coast electricity supply.
To be sure, there are real enough problems overseas in the oil producing nations, to say nothing about the high demand in China and India. But when all is said and done, I think the public in all the consuming nations in large measure is being "had."
bill preston
[ August 12, 2005, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Bill Preston ]
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Sorry, Glenn, but I have to disagree. We as a nation are already seeing fairly heavy duty price increases, particularly in transportation/freight charges. In order to stay in business these cost increases have to be passed along. aka "cost-push" inflation, as opposed to "demand-pull" inflation.
That's true. But inflation has continued to stay at or below 4% in spite of it. Look back at 2000 when we had a huge spike in prices. It even sparked a Congressional investigation. Meanwhile, inflation peaked at 3.73% before it dropped back down again.
As you can see from this chart, inspite of the recent fuel price jumps, inflation has dropped from a high of 3.51% in April to June's 2.53%.
quote:When you referred to Greenspan and the Federal Reserve adjusting interest rates in order to hold down inflation, this goes back about 60 years or so when the Federal government adopted Keynesian policy. About all this means is that prior to that time, governments in general had a hands off way of trying to regulate their respective economies. Let the market regulate the economy.
Yes, Greenspan has been using interest rates as a way to control inflation. What is different now than in the 1970's is that Congress isn't printing excess money.
We have to remember that in 1971, Nixon released the dollar from the gold standard and putting an end to the Bretton Woods Pact. The result of this was that the value of the Dollar dropped. In August of 1971, the Government suspended the convertibility of the Dollar. As a result, the value of the Dollar had dropped by 8% by the end of the year. The Dollar was devalued again in 1973.
Combine the Yom Kippur War, the collapse of Bretton Woods, the Oil Embargo, you have the making of a system of extreme inflationary pressures that wouldn't ease until the mid-1980s.
quote:Two other things about energy prices. If taxes on fuel are based on retail price before taxes are added in, then the higher the price, the greater amount of taxes collected. A windfall for government---more money to spend---or heaven forbid reduce deficits. Given all that, why would goverment be interested in seeing energy prices go down---at least until the public begins to really scream?
Yes and no. As you can see from this chart, a plurality of States base their fuel taxes on "cents" rather than "percentage". Another handful of States issue a fuel tax based on a "percentage". Kentucky and Virginia do both as do California and a few others in the form of a sales tax.
The Fed's fuel tax is based on "cents". If I can remember correctly, I think its fixed at 18.4¢ per gallon.
When fuel prices go up, revenue typically drops because people drive less. This also causes people to become uneasy about the economy and cut back on spending on other products and services thereby reducing State and Federal revenues.
However, this Economy is behaving differently. GDP is expected to grow from the current 3.4% to 4% by next year inspite of increased oil prices.
quote: The second thing IMHO is the distinct possibility of the oil companies artificially rigging a shortage by way of "problems with refineries, downtime for maintenance, etc." It was only three or four years ago that this turned out to be the case with West Coast electricity supply.
Except that no refinery problems have been reported. At least none reported by the MSM (MainSteam Media). However, it has been rumored .
quote:To be sure, there are real enough problems overseas in the oil producing nations, to say nothing about the high demand in China and India. But when all is said and done, I think the public in all the consuming nations in large measure is being "had."
I'm not so sure. Not yet anyways. Looking at this chonological chart, the prices haven't reached any historic peaks yet that would suggest any price fixing.
We went to Iraq, without the support of UN sanctions, with the intention to remove Saddam Hussein from power. Why? To eliminate his weapons of mass destruction and assist the Iraqis in establishing a democratic government.
Saddam has been captured and is standing trial. Iraq is now under new leadership. If there were ever any WMDs, they have never been found.
What are we doing about 9-11? What we have been doing since it happened. Remembering it and continuing the worldwide hunt for the sombitch who planned it, Osama Bin Laden. and his cohorts in Al-Queda. Our nation is working to improve it's security measures to prevent terrorism at home and working with other nations to identify terrorist networks and those who would harm the innocent.
We continue to be the largest buyer of oil in the world. Despite what we should have learned in the 70's when we were waiting in line for hours to fill our gas tanks, we have done little to develop alternate energy resources.
All that being said, you have to admit to one simple truth...
During the cold war, the opponents knew each other's faces. They did not hide. They built up their arsenals in what was called a deterrent and ponied up their own $$$ to do so. In the end, Communism was not defeated, it simply ran out of money and could no longer support itself. The cold war ended without a shot fired.
Once again there is an "ism" that we are doing battle with...terrorism. Unlike Communism, this one plays by a wholly different set of rules. The weapons are less deadly, but used more readily, often strapped onto the attackers themselves in suicide bombings. We do not know who they are and, often, where they are. They are not associated with a single nation like Russia. They are everywhere and nowhere at once. They do not stand on a battlefield, yet claim victoy when they kill non-combatants. They are like thieves in the night. They have no honor.
The rules of engagement have changed and as long as we continue to buy oil from nations in the middle east who financially support terrorism, the real fuel in this battle...money...will continue to flow into the hands of our enemies.
Time to change the rules. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ray, that is a very accurate assessment of where we've been and where we are. Make no mistake, just because you question present policy, it does not mean you are not patriotic.
Now that we're in Iraq and the world has witnessed "Shock and Awe" and the president's declaration of success on the deck of the carrier, we know we've entered a new era. This is one where an enemy is willing to strap himself with bombs and take his life and others -- even his own countryman. Who would have though it would be so. The rules of engagement have changed, just as they did during Vietnam.
I for one have no answers and worry about things in the world. I worry that instead of coming together to solve problems that could affect both sides like global warming, we have concentrated our energies on tearing each other apart. Two great world wars and several conflicts later and our sons and daughters are still in harms way and the world still has no answers. Throw nationalism and religion out, this is not 2 guys squaring off in the parking lot, this is a reality check on the human condition. This is desperation, pain and suffering on an escalating scale. Will it ever stop?
We are born to die. We don't know when our time will come, and almost every family has lost a member that has not lived a complete and full life. I always said I wanted to live at least as long as I could to see my children become mature enough to fend for themselves. I have reached that goal, and if my time comes soon, I will find comfort in that. I worry about my grandchildren and humanity in general; however, and see that compassion and love are too often in short supply. I see money and power being the root of all evil and I see a downhill slide to nowhere.
If I had all the answers and the balls, I would step forward and try to become a world leader, as I think those folks have the best shot at affecting change. Sometimes world leaders don't want to compromise though. We revere the ones who have.
I only have questions and grave concerns, and I think love and understanding need to surface. I wonder if it will occur in my life time.
Do I think this has anything to do with being a Letterhead? You bet -- it's about life. It's about communication and understanding. Isn't that why we have keypads in front of us? Isn't that why we have a forum. We can discuss techniques, equipment and procedures until we're blue in the face, but we're more well rounded than that aren't we? Don't you want to know how another feels about issues that really yank you? I do.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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...The "funny' thing is that the oil companies are making record profits (in the billions) this year. And we all have no choice but get reamed more and more for gas. ...Who has an "oil man" friend in the white house?
quote:Originally posted by W. R. Pickett: ...The "funny' thing is that the oil companies are making record profits (in the billions) this year. And we all have no choice but get reamed more and more for gas. ...Who has an "oil man" friend in the white house?
Who do I get to blame in the White House for the jump in the price of Aluminum and Redwood?
The fact is that oil companies derive their "profits from oil exploration and production." The profit in gasoline is actually very small.
Oil is just a commodity like gold and pork bellies. The oil companies actually have very little contol over the price of oil.
And while oil companies are currently enjoying near-record profits, when you consider the fact that oil was just $10 a barrel in 1998 due to oversupply, it makes perfect sense.
If I bought a huge supply of MDO from Sign Supply, USA last year because they were running a sale at 10¢ on the Dollar, am I a bad guy for making it into a sign and base my price on what MDO would cost today?
posted
Yes, Glenn, in some people's minds you would be wrong...
One time my supply house clraring out their stock of the 3" ShurLine rollers. I bought 250 roller sleeves, end caps, and handles for 10 cents apiece. They were regularly a dollar each in the store.
A shop I was subbing for asked about getting some of those. I offered them to him for 50 cents a piece. He called me a thief and an a**hole for trying to take advantage of him because, afterall, I had paid far less than that.
I told him that he should be happy because I was selling them to him for half price. He disagreed. I kept my rollers.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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You got the balls to make your BOLD statement. If history reminds us of anything...World War 2 was about oil with both Germany and Japan. Vietnam, was about rubber and coffee and the chinese wanted some too. Oh,Korea also was about petro and the Asian'conflicts were focused on south asia oil. So throw out the oil issue completely and talk about why...all the wars? Let's say Oil was not an issue. So what was it? Oh, why was the Afganistan area left? Hmm? Any oil there? What a mess! I would like to hear from the lips of the president that a mistake was made about WMD'S and then I would be on his side at least until the next.........
CrazyJack, nationalist reactionary human! Ilove my USA
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Bruce, you just described a very practical, down-to-earth, everyday-way of thinking about consumer-driven prices.
Did your freind stop to consider the time you spent either on the phone, or AT the supply house discussing the sale on the rollers?? If you actually picked them up and unloaded the stuff at your shop, boy, think of the time in THAT.
Even if they were shipped to you, how 'bout the time you spent unpacking and storing or organizing in some accessible way, the 3 components you mentioned??
Not to mention the minutes you spent on the phone haggling with him about the price. Even if it was only 5 minutes..... 'Could'a been 5 minutes you spent on a $60 an hour job.
The point is, (and all this has been said repeatedly on this post in 'economics' terms) every 'middle man' has to make at least some amount of profit for even the smallest amount of time spent handling the goods.
If you translate Bruce's analogy to gas, (or any high-demand product)looking at how many people handle it from the raw stage to the pump . . . . well, .....there's a lotta people involved in that. Not justifying or making excuses for high prices, but as an example, I wonder what a trucking companies liability insurance alone is for transfering/unloading fuel to one gas station?
In the mean time, I take my consumer-driven self right on down there to one of the 3 places in town, always at least 3 cents cheaper than any other place, and put gas in my vehicle without even worrying about the price. If gas is going up, my sign prices are goin' up along with everything else that's goin' up. Precisley the point in some of these posts. Economics.
And please, don't barrage me with reports about how much safer corn-fuel or 'water-based-fuel or any of that stuff. If anyone ever finds a fuel that will run an 8 cylinder fullsize pick-up at least 75 down the interstate for at least 4 hours, FINE.
Furthermore, people can gripe all they want that people like me and my 'gas guzzlin' ways' are 'the problem'...but I'm going to drive a mid-to-large size truck 'til pigs fly 'cause I STILL can't carry a 4x8 and/or two 16'x6x6's on a bike, a moped, or a tonka-toy size two-seater.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT TO TURN ON THE TV AND HEAR ANY U.S. PRESIDENT, DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN GIVE THE FOLLOWING SPEECH? > > My Fellow Americans: As you all know, the defeat of Iraq regime has been completed. Since congress does not want to spend any more money on this war, our mission in Iraq is complete. This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq. This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now to begin the reckoning. Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short. The United Kingdom, Spain, Bulgaria, Australia, and Poland are some of the countries listed there. The other list contains everyone not on the first list. Most of the world's nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening. Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war. The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hell-holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption. Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France. In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home. On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth. Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France, or maybe China. I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France, Germany, and Russia. Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring from NATO as well. Bon chance, mes amis. I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not ****ing us off for a change. Mexico is also on List 2. President Fox and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple extra tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put em? Yep, border security. So start doing something with your oil. Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty - starting now. We are tired of the one-way highway. Immediately, we'll be drilling for oil in Alaska - which will take care of this country's oil needs for decades to come. If you're an environmentalist who opposes this decision, I refer you to List 2 above: pick a country and move there. They care. It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens. Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them by saying, "darn tootin." Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America. It is time to eliminate homelessness in America. It is time to eliminate World Cup Soccer from America. To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thanks guys. We owe you and we won't forget. To the nations on List 2, a final thought: You might want to learn to speak Arabic.
God bless America. Thank you and good night.
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just for the record, Mark, there are plenty of Canadian troops in harm's way in Afghanistan. Have been from the beginning. Canadians didn't (and don't) support your country's war on Iraq - and with good reason, as it turns out. There weren't any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, no direct links between Iraq and 9/11, etc. You should be angry with your present administration for lying to you and the rest of the American people...not to mention the costs (human and financial) of their policies and decisions.
NAFTA? Don't make us laugh. Read something about the softwood lumber dispute. The U.S. Government doesn't play by the rules unless it suits them.
If I disagree with you does that make me anti-American? I would like to believe that such a viewpoint is a little too simplistic for most Americans to swallow.
[ August 14, 2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Anyone stop to think the cost of oil probably has more to do with the yahoos on Wall Street trading it up higher and higher, than it does a war?
Sure, war creates fear and uncertainty but it's the frenzied morons on the stock exchange floor controlling the cost.
Then other investors see the prices go up and that just causes more of a frenzy with people trying to get in on the action, which continues driving the price up.
Gee.. it's just like the current real estate market - an artificially inflated bubble.
I get at least one phone call a day from investment firms wanting me to invest in oil - each time it's a different firm. That tells me something, kinda like how there's 1200 real estate agents in this dumpy little desert town I live in.
Eventually, the wheels are gonna break on that bandwagon.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Jon, I didn't write that but I agree with a lot of it. Believe me I don't think we should have gone to Iraq in the first place, the sooner we can get our boys out of there the better. Do you know how you can tell if a politician is lying? watch his lips if they move......... the only people I consider anti american are the ones who try to kill us
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: Eventually, the wheels are gonna break on that bandwagon.
Like Bill, I'd rather that didn't happen to my children or theirs.
The real problem is that world leaders tend to spend the resources generated by it's citizens greasing the wheels (and sometimnes lining their own pockets), when it's citizens are in need of a whole new set of tires.
As I said above, we, meaning all nations, have progressed and need to re-evaluated the way we do business. Countries in which we were in conflict with are now often our partners when it comes to money markets, humanitarian aide, medical research and much more. Moreso than ever, the global community is more interdependant and interactive than any othe time in history.
Unlike Mark, I think it would be virtually impossible for any one nation to put itself in an isolationist position. There aren't any who could survive it without the onset of the enevitable outcome. As that structure breaks down, uprisings, dissention and wars start. Every war ever fought in world histroy has been fought because the demand for another nation's resources.
We can no longer blind ourselves to the fact that the resaourses on this planet are controlled by a tiny percentage of it's population. Yes, the stock market traders are there wheeling and dealing. Much of what they do is based on the actions and decisions of OPEC, thus trimming down the nuber of people effecting the whole world's economy. Throw in some panic driven trading on a few good rumours and the whole thing continues to get out of whack.
Therein lies the real problem. As Americans, we have always supported and encouraged free market societies, yet as time has begun to show, their is an icreasing number of people who are homeless, cannot pay their bills or afford to maintain their health while the upper class continues to make it more difficult to do so based on the "percieved value" of commodities.
Catch 22.
Bill, I am patriotic, but I honestly feel that everyone in this nation is moreso when they question and challenge thier leadership. It's the foundation of the system of checks and balances under which we live. Without the voice of the people, it fails.
It may not be the "perfect system" and certainly isn't seen that way by some other countries, but the basic principles are sound. The true power lies within the people of this country and it's leadership is obligated to act as their citizens see fit. It's when we lose faith in that system and don't speak up that we fail. Of late, it seems that here and in other countries, leaders have been running off and doing whatever they please without the concerns or permissions of the people they represent and falling short on reasons why they have done so.
I for one refuse to let that continue when it affect the future of the world I have brought my children into. They need new tires and deserve better than the same old retreads this world continues to offer. New rules...
If one voice can make it happen for them, expect mine to be the loudest. Rapid
PS: Bill, I'm looking forward to Jill's meet so I can shake your hand.
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sadaam was in and of himself a weapon of mass destruction.
One of my most satisfying days was being able to view the waxy patched up bodies of Sadaam's two sons on national tv (well, cable tv - I don't watch the national news).
Funny how the radical lefties love to talk about human rights, but if it requires sacrifice they'd just as soon continue allowing people like Uday and Qusay Hussein feed guys alive into chipper shredders and to tigers - just for fun rather than stepping out and doing something about it.
I guess human rights stops at the border?!
....it's actually "The love of money is the root of all evil."
There is a difference.....having money, in and of itself doesn't cause one to be evil....and let's not forget, even the poorest amongst us in the US is considered wealthy by 9/10 of the rest of the world. So when you talk about the rich - look in the mirror...because it's you, whether you think so or not...and ask yourself what you have done lately with the money you're blessed with to help somebody out who is truly needy?
posted
HEY... I think this post has enough replies for me to post some quotes
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: "Many Americans don't give a $hit what Canadians think about our war on terrorism"
SPEAK FOR YOURSELF TODD, BUT DON'T EVEN TRY TO SPEAK FOR ALL AMERICANS, & DON'T DARE TO CALL IT... ok, go ahead & call it OUR WAR if you must, ...call it a war on terrorism too... most of the world sees it as the smoke & mirror BS that it is... even if an alleged majority of American electoral collage votes seemed to have support for it at one crucial time. It's looking a little muddier over there lately BTW as far as mass support at home is concerned.
...and as far as you preposterous self-serving caricature of left-winged thought (OK you said radical lefties... but you're throwing stones from the right to the left...) well, before I get tempted to reply to that $h...
quote: As for the current war and who lied and whether or not its about 9/11, its all debatable. And I'd be happy to debate it with anyone who'd like to, but not here. I think we can all agree that its a touchy subject and that Steve & Barb have better things to do than make sure we all don't get overheated on the subject. If anyone really would like to debate it, let me know. I can direct you to a more appropriate forum where we can duke it out.
*edited to say I stand corrected & therefore felt I should add that word back in that I unintentionally left out.
[ August 14, 2005, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
Hi Doug...if you're going to quote things that I decided to edit out...at least quote them in their entirety....
The original line was, "Many Americans don't give a $hit what Canadians think about our war on terrorism."
The word "Many" makes a great difference in how you should have responded...because "many" is true.....many don't.
I originally responded in a bit of a huff over what I felt was Jon's delight in bashing the US ....and then decided to tone it down a notch...which I think was the prudent thing to do...by deleting that line a couple minutes later.
But since you caught it and decided to throw it back out there...here it is in it's original form. But at least quote it as originally posted.
Now...please answer me this: Do human rights stop at the border?
Administrations of both major parties apparently think that human rights belong to all the world, and therefor, we have a duty to ensure we help secure them.
We are not perfect...but at least we do something.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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...as an aside, in a matter of 4 hours yesterday, gas at one local station went up 10¢ per gallon. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Not to be picky...but I'd also change your line asking me not to speak for all Americans...because I didn't - just "many" - and I would not speak for everyone as I know that not all Americans subscribe to my viewpoint.
I'd say that it is "our" war whether you like it or not, because collectively we are all Americans....and America IS at war.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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"Now...please answer me this: Do human rights stop at the border?"
I guess we have to define "Human Rights" I'd like to think I know right from wrong & as a religious guy, I think you believe what is "right" is a universal truth & therefore is already defined & already a god-given "right" around the world. If so, to a large degree I would agree with you.
"both major parties apparently think that human rights belong to all the world, and therefor, we have a duty to ensure we help secure them"
now to discuss this further we would have to define how we "help secure them"
Without yet coming to agreement on the definition of those terms I will say that I think "rights" vary based on situation... like for example the right to freely discuss political diferences may be a right in many, but not all countries... & of course it is not a right in this forum. So without further treading across those lines, I make the comparison that one prophet is alleged to have once said "Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but the plank in your own eye you do not consider?"
America tries to judge what Human rights should be for the world, & of course I would agree that our example is far better in many ways then some of the attrocities I've heard of around the world... but I think we still have a plank in our own eye to consider regarding human rights before we "help secure them" for other nations. Other nations think we westerners should have the right to own & abuse women. They should not wage war with us to help secure those rights, & perhaps we (Americans)should think twice about some of the agression we are guilty over over the course of history. Does this mean I want to watch innocent people fed into chippers for fun? get real!
posted
ok... ladies, gentlemen, mayor & first lady of letterville... I have ventured further into questionable territory then I hoped & I now retreat & return you all to your previously edgy thread in hopes that I have not tipped it too far & spoiled it for others. Aloha
posted
Thanks Doug. We've been really busy the last few days. This post has really gathered some steam since I last read it.
There's some good stuff here, but I can see it starting to turn into another American politics debate. Everytime that happens, things go down hill real fast. Instead of bringing us together over our comman interest in Letterheads, this sort of discussion only only serves to divide us.
As one of the creators of this BB, I'm committed to ensuring that all of our users leave here with a feeling they learned something or made some new friends. Once again I ask that you honour the Law Of letterville and refrain from political, religious and other posts that we all know will result in dividing us for all the wrong reasons.
Let's talk about fixing the gas problem instead of fixing the blame.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
I saw it coming, I knew they were going to spike the price of oil. I've been waiting for it the last several years.
Then, during the election, oil prices were going up, but gas was staying the same. Hmmm, betcha 'somebody' was releasing the strategic reserves, to keep gas prices artificialy low.
Glad I got into the Toyota truck, out of the full size Dodge. I'm an ex druggie, like really really hard use, and what gets me is that if even I could see it coming, how come everybody kept on buying the monster SUV's? Slaves to fashion?
It appears that they're using any trivial excuse to raise the prices, some things are obvious. Next it'll be tied to something like groundhog day: "look! he saw his shadow' raise prices!"
What irks me bad is the feeling that I'm being manipulated by this executive office. Gee, things are looking bad in Iraq, have a press release in favor of inteligent design, a.k.a. shore up the voter base. But for what? Republican-ism in the next term? We've already seen one marvelous new type of war, that is the pre-emptive variety, how about a second new aspect of war: perpetual war. Hey, come to think of it, I know there is a law limiting the president to two terms, but what about the vice pres? Hoo-ray for perpetual Haliburton-ism!
Believe it of not, I'm a conservative 'extremist', but I'm hardly represented with the republican party as it is. Only one thing makes the attack on Iraq palletable, that he was paying for the suicide bombers in Israel.
Edit to say: I was writing as Steve was posting. I don't know what to do about gas prices, except my boys have been getting interested in alternative energy, and I told them I'd look into getting a permit for a still (from BATF).
And gee, wouldn't it be nice if the above political stuff I wrote was just more silly conspiracy theory stuff?
[ August 15, 2005, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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James, please see my link above - BBC News Article.
quote:Let's talk about fixing the gas problem instead of fixing the blame.
Exactly.
The problem is that all of the refineries in the US are at capacity. No new refineries have been built in roughly 25 years due to the successful efforts of the Environmental Lobby.
No, protecting the environment isn't a bad thing. The problem is with anything is when it goes too far one way or the other. We need to build new refineries.
We also need to open new oil fields that we already know exist.
Right now, with production at full capacity, if anything happens - such as the destruction of an oil platform by Hurricane Ivan or a refinery fire in Texas - we are going to see huge spikes.
We need is less rhetoric and tinfoil hat conspiracy theories. We need to begin building new refineries, expansion of existing ones, and start poking more holes in the ground.
As for other countries, the problem can be more complex. In some, 75% of the price for gasoline is in the form of a tax. For others, its that they too need to build new and expand existing refineries. In others, its the need for a more stable government. All of these add up.
(Revise and extend remarks)
Just wanted to add that we should also continue to look toward new techologies as well. One good thing about the price spikes in oil is that it makes the new techologies more attractive.
At a family reunion yesterday, a lot of the conversation was about a relative's new Prius and how much get-up-n-go it had as well as the MPG.
[ August 15, 2005, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
quote:Originally posted by Jon Aston: If I disagree with you does that make me anti-American? I would like to believe that such a viewpoint is a little too simplistic for most Americans to swallow.
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: ...what I felt was Jon's delight in bashing the US...
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Just for the record, Mark, there are plenty of Canadian troops in harm's way in Afghanistan. Have been from the beginning. Canadians didn't (and don't) support your country's war on Iraq - and with good reason, as it turns out. There weren't any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, no direct links between Iraq and 9/11, etc. You should be angry with your present administration for lying to you and the rest of the American people...not to mention the costs (human and financial) of their policies and decisions.
NAFTA? Don't make us laugh. Read something about the softwood lumber dispute. The U.S. Government doesn't play by the rules unless it suits them.
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: I originally responded in a bit of a huff over what I felt was Jon's delight in bashing the US ....and then decided to tone it down a notch...which I think was the prudent thing to do...by deleting that line a couple minutes later.
quote:Originally posted by Hugh Potter: blimey, i thought it was us brits that whined loudest !!
come over here, spend 95p per litre (4.5L to an Imperial gallon), that'll be about $1.75 per litre, so about $7 a us gallon,
quit whining !
Nah Hugh the Yanks are past masters at whining and they are too busy bitching at each other to take notice of us two, any way serves them right for driving such stupidly large fuel inefficient vehicles, the american male must have his V8 7 litre "penis extension" must be terrible to feel so inadequate Why do you suppose although they only make up 1% of this planets populaton they ignorantly consume 25% of the planets resources, maybe they might take notice when some Chinese company buys out GM
Well if this don't get a response I give up.
-------------------- Steve Broughton Alpha Grafix Signs Lowfields Road Benington, Boston Lincolnshire, England Posts: 315 | From: Boston, Lincolnshire, England | Registered: Aug 2001
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If anyone thinks that one man, or a small cartel can singlehandedly control the cost of gasoline, think again.
There are enormous market forces at work which contribute to the price of gas.
Granted, some short term influence can be exerted by a few well placed individuals, but this whole notion of the market being manipulated for an extended period by such a group ignores the facts (and complexities) of the global market.
-------------------- Paul Bierce - Designer pabierce@hotmail.com www.paulbierce.com Posts: 330 | From: Dix Hills, NY | Registered: Jan 2005
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I'm aware of the complexities in refining the stuff, but what gets me is how the mere THREAT of a storm, political change, etc can change the price. The thing didn't even happen yet. I of course could be wrong, but it sounds like grabbing excuses out of the air.
By the way, Steve B., Alot of American women buy those big vehicles too.
Doug, now I finally see the truth, the reason I talk about perpetual this and that is my own perpetual state of flashback..Timothy Leary where are you???
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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For the second time, this statement (made by Steve) is being quoted:
_______________________________________________ "Let's talk about fixing the gas problem instead of fixing the blame." _______________________________________________
To that Glenn said, 'Exactly', and went on to expound on that thought.
But I'd say, 'impossible'. Since gas prices (and a great many things) are not only economically motivated but politically motivated as well. It's all too intertwined to simplistically separate the blame from the remedy. Fixing the cause IS part (if not all) of fixing the problem. At least discussing the 'idea' of it is interesting.
But before Steve made the statement quoted above, he said this:
_______________________________________________ "Once again I ask that you honour the Law Of letterville and refrain from political, religious and other posts that we all know will result in dividing us for all the wrong reasons.
Let's talk about fixing the gas problem instead of fixing the blame."
_________________________________________________
Again, another impossible concept.
We're either gonna to talk about a topic and exhaust all our creative ideas (C'mon, we're Letterheads) OR we can't discuss it at all.
With any topic of discussion there's no 'limits' to relating ideas or debate (other than manners and keeping to the point) and in order to discuss something and actually enjoy it, you gotta have black & white areas of facts, and even perfectly grey areas when it comes information, ideas, concepts, and even opinions.
I would at least note and commend everyone; no childish name calling has happened, and no 'monkeys' have appeared to sling feces even as disagreements occur, and no one has even mentioned getting Chinese food yet . . .
Another very respectful & mature exchange of very interesting comments. So for that at least, thanx.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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I recently heard on the news that CHINA is the world's biggest user of oil. Anyone else hear this? If this is true, it is probably all the fuel they are using to run the American manufacturing plants that have moved there. Sad, anyway.
James, I also have the same past as you... but Timothy Leary???
Timothy Leary's dead, no, no, no, he's outside...looking in......
I used to be a BIG MOoody Blues fan. How 'bout you?
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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