posted
Monday pi$$ser offer. Lady who I did a banner for calls me last week. Says "how much are your corrugated signs? "Ok, how many did you have in mind... 1000 are so much, 100 are so much, & so on & so forth..."
Oh, Felix I'm sorry, but your prices are too high! I just got a quote from... &...
Sorry ma'am, but I work very hard on my signs. I use the best & most durable materials, every second I have I try to educate myself in order to better myself at what I do... blah, blah... & most of all, if I tell you it'll be done by Wednesday, it'll be there. Frankly, I'm not in a price war with any sign guy. I guess you'll have to decide if quality work is more important than a bottom line.""
Well, i haven't seen any signs up yet but I'm sure she went with the other guy.
Is there a more subtle way to tell stuff like this to people? Regardless of if I get the job or not, is there a more subtle way to get this across to people?
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2274 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Just this last week I had a customer tell me the same thing!
My reply was:
"Thank you! We like to know we are in the high price catagory of signs shops, and you must think it odd of me to say that, but in this business you get what you pay for and the low price always means a long wait, low quality and corner cutting. And after you get what you paid for, you will bad mouth that other shop to everyone you know. You can bad mouth me on high price all you want, but you can't bad mouth me on quality!
You have a business too, and I bet your customers shop your prices with low ballers. And you know they are going to get what they pay for, just like I do. You know deep down its worth a little more to have it done the right way, and on time and with someone who will be there when you need them.
posted
If your getting hit up by a new "customer" who's really just a price shopper try this.
Reach into your wallet and pull out a $20. When they get that quizzical look on their face and ask you what your doing tell them. I know my costs of doing this job and if I just give you this $20 I'll have lost less money than if I tried to beat that price that your waving at me.
I wouldn't do this with an established customer but it's a good way to "fire" someone who you really don't want to mess with.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1356 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'd suggest not saying anything "cute". Just thank him for the opportunity and move on to the next project.
I say this because I've had a few of those shoppers to come back after they realized their mistake. The last thing I want to do is alienate them. I've had several "shoppers" become very loyal customers and understand the value of what I offer.
posted
Felix, It is either a crazy sign person, making signs for nothing, or a lying client.
Had a guy like this on Saturday (my door was locked, sign says appointment only...)! Let's see, at $60 an hour ($1 per minute), In retrospect, I know now that I probably SHOULD have handed him $20.
Seems he needed a quote on 3 pairs of 12"x 24" magnetics, 2 color vinyl. I'm beginning to try to work up a quick quote for him and he mentions some internet deal. So I ask him, point blank, how much the internet guy was charging. He says "$55"! I say, "Per pair"? He says " No, for the whole job!" Now, stupid me, I start to explain what he'll probably get for that money. I explain the cost of materials. I start to explain what he would receive as service from our shop, yada,yada,yada...
AS I'M SPEAKING I realize how stupid I am for even trying to explain this to him, or ANY customer for that matter. I realize that as much as I TRY to educate him, it is costing me money, but... I can't shut up! I explain "A" quality jobs, and the advertising advantages of a nicely designed sign. I show him the samples on my wall of a "good - better - best" sign and that he wouldn't be getting ANY of them.
Thank God, a friend of mine walked in to save me from myself!!! When will we ever learn?
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I've done this for so long that I am just burned out on explaining myself beyond:
"I am not willing to work for a super low profit. I don't need the practice, and instead of working for nothing I'd rather put my feet up for a while. Besides, I need money to keep my doors open for the next time you need me."
Other than that, I'm with Glenn, let it roll off your back. I see the low ballers come and then I see them go. The real problem to combat in out industry is the fact that they are replaced by new ones.
The most we can do is point out that we are professionals. We did not make hamburgers last week, and are now trying to make signs this week. And also tell them you will be here once they found out the difference by themselves. Tell them to open their eyes and see what's out there.
(as you can see this is not my day for having patience....)
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It's funny how we all get these customers now and then. I have a friend that does mainly silk screening but does a few signs now and then. He says he can't get his customers to by a pair of 12"x24" magnetics for more than $60. a pair! I have charged double that for several years and we are only about 5 miles apart! I tell him he should raise his prices all the time. He doesn't do any creative stuff but nice simple one or two color vinyl with maybe a clip art doodle or graphic. He could easily get $80. a pair for that.
I saw at Kinko's (a quick copy center) over in the St. Louis area selling 1-color mags with just lettering for $129.95!! No artwork, no layout, no borders! Made me realize I need to raise my prices again for what we offer. Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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"I REFUSE TO COMPETE WITH ANYONE WHO IS WILLING TO WORK FOR FREE"
Cmon, say it with me......
Seriously tho, I agree with Glenn, and have had that same experience. But, it's fun to spout off in a place where people know exactly what you are talking about.
Bill: Where'd a broke sign guy get $20 from???
[ August 08, 2005, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
If you can get them for $XX from Lenny the Loser, why on earth are you bothering me???!!?!?!?!
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I'm with Glenn's take on it. Just say no thanks and move on to the next job. Nothing you can say will likely change their attitude. It's obvious that price is all they care about.
You can't win them all and you don't want them all.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Hey, when your dealing with "DESIGN YOUR OWN SIGNS, on time, every time, or it's free rush service available upon request, www.signsRus.com" (See link at the bottom of this post), don't expect it to get any better.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I got a call from a real estate Professional (cough). She asked how much a sign was, installation, etc. (yawn)
2 hrs later another call asking this and that... .
A couple hours later she calls and asks if I can beat this price. I said "I can but I won't! I know what it costs to make this sign and what I need to make to put food on the table for my family. I won't work for that, so best of luck" You could hear a pin drop, I called her bluff and it blew her away. Now she has to go back to sign company X and beg for the last price she got from them
-------------------- Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
posted
People ask me all the time if I sell cheap signs! No! I sell "inexpensive" signs. My price is not so low I have to cut corners and do a cheap job. But my prices are not so high as to alienate the average customer who is trying to do their best to get their business off the ground.
Well, found out they were looking for the cheap signs.
One lady told me that price is what she is looking for. I should have told her I could do a butcher paper banner and staple it to the sign frame for only $25! Of course, it won't last past the first rain storm, but hey, it's cheap!
But seriously, I do tell them that I do "inexpensive" signs to let them know up front that I don't "Do Cheap".
In fact, there's no point in explaining all the details of pricing to a potential customer. it's none of their damn business it's most likely way over their heads anyway it just reeks of desperation and insecurity when you offer answers to questions they never asked in the first place.
Artists need to get past the "slap in the face feeling" every time someone questions their pricing or critiques their work.
Lastly.. if shoppers are coming to you and trying to beat you up on pricing on something they can get at any dime store, you haven't done your job at showing them what you can REALLY do, and making them LUST for that. If they have it in their heads they want cheap, let them go elsewhere.
Why fight for the cheapest price on plain mags when you could name your price on exceptional mags - like Bob Stephens' examples in the portfolio section.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
...Like KIM said, "Why are you bothering me?"
...Your cheap skate client was looking for you to prostrate yourself and start kissing her ass to sell her some cheap signs. I'd inform her that I was giving her a break on the price (as it is), but now, sorry babe.... No soup for you!
posted
Hey another client just called. She said she wanted to order the sign I had quoted a loooong time ago for $410.00. I told that I had to check if I could still give her that price, since it had been so long... & by the way, the quote had been for $510.00, not $410. What cojones people have!
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2274 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
I was referred to by another sign shop, to this client. Their usual sign shop was too busy (or chose not to) to do this job for his client.
I worked out a quote on a 3 feet x 90 feet banner as asked. Oh course it is a 'rush' job. I happily sent my more-than-fair quote through and was phoned back immediately asking why my price was so high....my competitor was willing to charge half of that.
I told the client that I had no explaination as to why his price was half. My price had been calculated very fairly for the job and I was firm on my price.
As I did not hear back from her....I assume she went for the half price shop. I calcutated all the costs again (just becasue now I doubted myself....and found that if someone did this for half os my price......it would cost them money in material....never mind all their free labour!
I felt good that I did not get this job and I enjoyed my relaxing weekend knowing that the other shop was busting their behind, working through the weekend to meet this customers rush order....for nothing!!!! Even if this shop receives repeat work.....what is the point....they are not making any profit. Yes...It hurts all other sign shops when one undercuts so badly.....but hold your price...you are worth it. If you lose a job like this, don't sweat it....go do something you love, go the beach, go have a coffee (but wear a t-shirt with your shop anme on it and be visible) something else better will come from your day off. What goes around, comes around. Sometimes the best job is NO JOB! Enjoy Felix! Keep your chin up!
-------------------- Susan Banasky Source Signs Nanaimo, British Columbia sourcesigns@shaw.ca
When in need....go directly to the "Source"!
Proud Supporter of this "Knowledge Network"! Posts: 1323 | From: Nanaimo, B.C. Canada | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Talking about cheapskate clients, sometimes I get the "how much for a banner" call. If I'm in a good mood, this is how it goes.
Them: Yeah hi, I'm calling for a price on your banners. Me: Oh, sure. What's the name of your company? Them: Er, um, no... I just want a simple banner. Me: Ok, what'd you have in mind? Them: Well, um.. ME: What's your name again? (as if they had given me the name to begin with...) Them: Oh, this is Joe Schmuck. Me: Oh, Ok Mr. Schmuck. So what have you planned on investing in the job? Them: Um, no. Uh, I just wanted a price for a banner. Me: Oh, you mean like a common size banner, say a 3'x 12'? Them: YEAH YEAH, that's it. Me: Ok, sure. Well, swing by the shop, we can do that! Them: Oh, ok. Well, how much is it going to cost me? Me: Oh, I'm sorry. I don't quote over the phone. Them: Oh, ok. I'll be there. Me: Yawn.. Yawn... Uhuh..
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2274 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
I'm not sure how to word it, but something about if my price is so high, why not join the 'fun' and get rich in the sign trade?
As it is, I realize that in this area, there is ZERO chance of me EVER getting a price shopper, so I'm going back to a version of what I used to do. I used to tell them that I specialize in what the other shops don't do, gave a list of walls, equipment, mobile service, then quickly refered them to a nearby competitor, any one, just get off the phone.
One time, I changed the wording a little, by accident I suppose, and told them I did signs with better designs, and ended up with a good long term client.
I normally don't want to bother trying to upsell a 'price only' person, too much work, but I'm beginning to wonder about another strategy: There is a well known horse starter/gentler (he doesn't use the word 'break', as that's far from what he does). His name is Monty Roberts. When he was young, he was observing wild horses, and learned something the native Americans have long known: When you chase a group of wild horses, they will run, because that's their defense, flight. But if you suddenly stop the chase, and turn the other way, they will actually return the chase, so strong is their curiosity.
So-o-o-o-o, I'm thinking that maybe if I intentionally turn a client away, like I'm really not interested in that type of work, because I work with better designs, they may be more curious about what it is that I do.
Edit to add: I can certainly relate to what Bill Modzel said, it is an understanding born of pain.
[ August 08, 2005, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Last month, a towing company owner asked for a quote on lettering his trucks. I told him about $150 to $200 for a decent looking job and he replies "Well, I have a guy that does them ready to install, $35 for both doors." (One color.)
I did what I felt was the best way to convey my thoughts on the subject...
I laughed, said "buh-bye" and drove off without another word. I think he got the message.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Jim, I met & spoke with Monty Roberts some years ago- nice bloke. What he does with horses is good- learning to read how they communicate & how to get the message back to them that you understand what they're getting at, through recognising the meaning of each flicker of the eyes, ears, head & jaw. It's quite simple when you know & can recognise it & helps heaps when training horses, to get the message through really quickly.
Stopping the chase & reversing is a good tactic with handling a lot of livestock, providing they have some kind of a brain!
Felix, you could try saying that for that price (the one they want you to match), you'll do a plain uncreative layout using short term materials which will not last, but for $x more, they'll get a far better designed and more effective sign of lasting quality. It is up to them to decide whether the value is in the cheap materials or in the better layout & longevity then, and you've not compromised your original price.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I usually always try my best to accommadate my customers until they start trying to give me the run around. I will go the extra mile for a customer who pays on time etc. Some people realize what a nicely designed sign is worth. Others are just looking for cheapies, I personally don't mind giving them a cheapie if thats what they want, I mean If someone only has $300-$400 to spend and wants a 4x8 sign,installed I will give them a 4x8 corex sign or .40 aluminum with a semi nice design. No problem, I can whip that out in less than a day and still have time to run errands in the later part of the day. Maybe my expectations are not that high.
posted
Ian, I was just doing some vectorizing, when my mind started to wander, and I thought about your reply. It led to big laugh.
But first, for the benefit of others, let me explain this horse communication a little further...
Monty Roberts has come to understand a universal language among horses. They communicate silently for the most part, a sound could betray the herd's location to a predator. It includes the movements Ian said above, and also the way they stand and face each other, or turn away.
Mr. Roberts has learned to use this language to cause a horse to accept him as it's leader, as the leader of that horse's 'herd'. It's an agreement between horse and man, and he uses no whips, or pain.
Anyway, I digress...
I was wondering if we collectively could assemble a list of verbal and non verbal traits that tell what a customer is really thinking...
Shifting weight from one foot to the other...
Shifting eyes...
Perspiration...
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Rick B. - I'm inspired ----------------- quote: "I REFUSE TO COMPETE WITH ANYONE WHO IS WILLING TO WORK FOR FREE" -------------------- My new mantra, after reading this post is:
"Please tell me why I would want to compete with anyone who is willing to work for free, and why, since you already got a price below cost, are you here to see me?"
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Glenn, Mike & Si covered all the bases about price-shoppers: Don't waste your time explaining. They will not be "educated" about aesthetics or integrity, because are not listening to anything except price. You may as well "dispute with a cast-iron dog" (Ambrose Bierce).
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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quote: I was wondering if we collectively could assemble a list of verbal and non verbal traits that tell what a customer is really thinking...
Yes there is a way of sorts...
Its a book called Body Language by allen pease
It won't give you all the answers but it will give you some insight.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Felix asked: "Is there a more subtle way to tell stuff like this to people? Regardless of if I get the job or not, is there a more subtle way to get this across to people?"
Why be subtle? Your first answer was excellent.
But did you mean to ask if there' a shorter reply?
My short reply is given with a surprised expression big and goes something like this:
"HEY! You found someone to do it for THAT much LESS then me? If I were you I'd go for it because I'm already just fixin' to raise my price on that!"
Very interesting how they come back with sheepish excuses for why the alledged low-baller did'nt do the signs . . .it's all just so obvious that the whole thing was a manipulation ploy, and even if they actually do get the signs at the cheap price, who cares? You can't run a business & make a living on these types anyway.
But the best news is, if they do come back, they were already told I was raising the price they already thought was too high in the first place, so now they have to pay even more!!
Believe me though. A one million dollar deal is not enough money when it comes to dealing with the price-picky types. They always find something wrong and even after they pay you in full, have a way of leaving their attitude of dissatisfaction with you.
Money is'nt everything . . .whether it's all comin' to you, or the customer is over-zealous to save it.
Somethings are just not worth putting up with for the the almighty dollar.
Another thing I try to impress upon business people is to try to find out just how much time they've spent bargain hunting. And my little personal survey has astounded me.
If you think about it, the huge majority of our customers are in business and yet, seem to think they are actually saving money by spending time trying to save it, when they would have better served themselves to go with a good design and quality product that puts their business in a better light. Spending time bargain hunting actually costs them more money, and when they finally do spend the money for the sign they think they 'saved' so much on, they get a worthless, short-lived product for their wasted time.
Therefore, to my way of thinking, tire-kicking and lowest-price-bargain-hunting for one's business advertisment and image is a completely assinine business procedure that will put any one 'in-the-hole' in short order, and I ain't afraid to tell them so . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
My reply, everytime, is; "No, I cannot beat that guy's price, and I fear being the low bidder here so I won't even give you a quote! Thank You".
and hang up . . .
believe it or don't . . I've gotten several good paying jobs with that one!
posted
To coax the mule your land to break And toil til end of day You would do well to feed him grain Instead of just old hay But if not you must expect His furrows won't be deep Neither will he gee and haw Because he is so weak The soil will not be ready Come time to plant your seeds And if there is a harvest It will all be choked with weeds But you're a farmer who is wise And and you can look ahead You will know to spare the hay And feed him oats instead For he will snort and kick his heels Ready to leave the barn And you can rest assured That he will gladly plow your farm
Wayne Webb
[ August 10, 2005, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Sheila Ferrell: Another thing I try to impress upon business people is to try to find out just how much time they've spent bargain hunting. And my little personal survey has astounded me.
If you think about it, the huge majority of our customers are in business and yet, seem to think they are actually saving money by spending time trying to save it, when they would have better served themselves to go with a good design and quality product that puts their business in a better light. Spending time bargain hunting actually costs them more money, and when they finally do spend the money for the sign they think they 'saved' so much on, they get a worthless, short-lived product for their wasted time.
Therefore, to my way of thinking, tire-kicking and lowest-price-bargain-hunting for one's business advertisment and image is a completely assinine business procedure that will put any one 'in-the-hole' in short order, and I ain't afraid to tell them so . . .
Smiley: You are so on the ball! (As usual).
Ironically (and I'm sure this excludes all present company) I used to have the same conversation with ALOT of sign people (when I was in the supplies end of the business).
Wayne: Love the poem. What is the source, please?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
WE have all seen the price is cheaper at another shop game, in various forms. I am not sure if these people do this price game with their grocers, doctors, resturants etc.. But it really dosn't matter. When I get a potential customer claim they can get it cheaper, I simply congratulate them on finding a cheap price and point out that I work to fill the next six weeks of my time. If they are smart they know what I am saying and will be back at my price or they won't be back. I win..
-------------------- SIGN STATION Andover, Minnesota, USA Comunicação Visual "We will sell no sign before its time." www.signstation.com maris@signstation.com Posts: 17 | From: Andover, MN USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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