posted
Now I don't want this to turn into a bash post. I just need to consider some new software because I am looking at getting a VersaCamm. I have been using GA 6.2 FOREVER!. I am NOT GOOD with PhotoShop and Illustrator so far, and thought I should consider some bonafide SIGN SOFTWARE to go with this new output.
I would be especially interested in posts from people who have used multiple programs and can make comparisons.
We do fairly straight forward stuff, not too many bells and whistles. (Sorry Doug Allen, I could NEVER design what you come up with!) Lots of commercial trucks, and job site stuff. Our work is nice but KISS.
posted
I think most programs are GIGO- (GarbageIn/Garbage Out) meaning they will do only what you tell them to, to an extent, but they all have specific functions and limitations. You have to figure out what type of work you will be wanting to produce- ex. photos, only vector graphics... and then use appropriate tools (or software) for that application.
That said, I design (and cut) vector graphics from Corel and Illustrator. They do everything I want them to and I am familiar with both apps. For full color photos that are printed on large format printers, I use Photoshop, CorelPaint, Painter, and such... We produce stuff that gets printed all over the place with a multitude of printers and application- so it would be difficult for me to justify a sign specific program that may be too limited.
If you do go to a sign specific software, make sure it will support the file types and functions that YOUR business wants to produce.
My uncle has a sign shop that only uses a Gerber 4B cutter- and it does everything his business requires.
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1735 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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I've been using Corel for everything I do. I plot vinyl (rarely these days), digital print, and run my CNC router table from it. Everything I do is created in Corel and then exported to the specific software applications that run all my other output devices.
I can say that after all these years everything seems to be running seamlessly and I get consistant dependable results by and large.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
I do all of my proposals in CorelDraw and photo editing in PhotoPaint. Many of the plugin filters like Eye Candy, Kai's Power Tools, and others originally designed for Photoshop can be used in PhotoPaint as well. When drawing original line art and converting it to a cuttable format, I scan it, save it as a .tif file and run it through Adobe Streamline. I prefer the ease of use and accuracy over Corel's trace program. Usually a 4-6 minute process.
Hope this helps... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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After using both for a while i'm doing more in Corel. Corel just works right. I was a programmer in my past career so i'm always impressed when a program is intuitive. I've been pleasantly surprised many times by Corel (i'll say to myself, wouldn't it be neat if you could do this... an darned if you can't!). The more i use Corel the more i like it. Now when i go back to SignLab i'm muttering under my breath in frustration.
Corel has many more features than SignLab so it will take longer to learn, but it's worth the learning curve.
In SignLab's favor over Corel is that it does have an integrated plotter control which is quite nice. It does a good job of applying weed borders, allowing you to preview you cut, stack multiple copies, "panel" a large graphic, etc.
SignLab works well for simpler designs. The past two revisions (7.0 and 7.1) are geared more toward printing.
Some things i don't like about SignLab are the guidelines (they move when you click them unless you have a perfectly steady hand). In 7.0 you can lock the guidelines but it's rather a pain to use the lock. The zoom feature is just more clumsy than Corel's. Also, the lack of an Object Manager like Corel's makes it difficult to see all the parts of your design in SignLab. SignLab has a "instant replay" feature (something like Corel's object manager) but it's very confusing to me. If you have a complicated design, it's really hard to find the pieces in SignLab. Not so in Corel.
I didn't know about digital printing in Corel but from Bob's post above, sounds like you would be OK with Corel.
Another factor to consider is price. I spent $1500 on my first version of SignLab (e6), then $350 to go to Version 7. The upgrade to 7.1 is $400 which i won't do.
Corel is much less expensive to start and so are the upgrades.
So if i were starting over i would buy Corel and maybe CoCut (for my plotter) and would still have less out of pocket than SignLab and have a much more robust design program. (Many people cut directly from Corel which means you wouldn't have to buy CoCut. There is info on the board from Dave Grundy and others on how to do this.)
Thanks, Steve
-------------------- Steve Racz Racz's Handcarved Signs Posts: 1078 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2004
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If you alredy have Illustrator and Photoshop, I'd be inclined to save my money and learn to use them both. Maybe instead of buying new software, buy some good tutorials. Actually, I believe the tutorial that comes with Illustrator will get you pretty proficient by just taking the time to learn it.
If you buy new you're going to have to go through a learning curve anyway.
Great seeing you at Mazeppa. I'm going gold.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Barb..I use CorelDraw for everything I do, signmaking related.
Dave Sherby makes an excellent point about using what you have available. Why buy new software if you already have something that works?
Illustrator and Draw are very similar in what they do, but from what I have experienced (on a limited basis) and have heard, Draw seems to be more easily learned.
If you have old versions of Illustrator and Photoshop that really wouldn't suppoert digital printing, try downloading the trial version of CorelDraw 12. See if you can feel comfortable with it. From what I have seen of the pricing, Draw, which includes PhotoPaint, is a lot more affordable than Illustrator and Photoshop.
My personal opinion is that either CorelDraw/PhotoPaint OR Illustator/Photoshop are far wiser choices than any dedicated signmaking software.
(The above opinion is mine alone and does not reflect that of this website's owners or anyone elses for that matter!!!!! )
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I'll second what the Daves said as far as learning what you already have - should work just fine. I can't speak to the digital printing aspect since I farm out all my digital prints, but working out of CorelDraw I've had no problems with anyone using my files.
posted
you will need a good (& expensive) rip software right? I think the versacam will require that, & I know Roland has one, but I don't know if it's included. If not, both signlab & Flexi can include powerful rip software if you select that version.
I know very little about Rolands equip. but it prints & cuts on the same machine right? So you will have files with print & cut information. I think there will be advantages to having one software to set up & output prints & cuts from.(& Save, & reprint from)
posted
Versacamm comes with Versaworks (included in price of machine) which as a GREAT rip.
I have Flexi (came with Matan), Signlab (came with engraver) and Corel. We use Corel almost exclusively; Flexi we use only as a Rip for the Matan. Same with the envraver, if a job requires a layout, we'll design in Corel and export it to engrave with signlab. After using Corel for a while both of these programs just seem limited.
We cut vinyl on a Graphtec 4100-120 directly from corel, we print (& cut) to versacamm 540 directly from corel, as well running all desktop publishing directly from corel. The print module in Corel is amazing, allowing multi-up, multi page layup, it's way ahead of any adobe products for ease of printing, Indesign included. You can also tile large images for cutting or printing and specify overlap.
With a $50 plugin (curveworks) you can apply a radius corner to every corner in an object. And by welding a line through the text prior to cutting, you've created speedweeding. and these are the only two worthwhile features I've seen in dedicated cutter softwares that corel didn't have.
Doug mentioned print& cut, Roland did a neat job of defining how the machine cuts. You simply create and add a color to your palette, any color as long as the color name is CutContour. You draw your cut and make the outline 'CutContour' color. thats it... print as normal. The Rip recognises the CutContour color as a cut and will print the design (not the cut) and then go back and cut. If you wish to laminate before cutting you simply tell the rip to 'Mark' and it will print the job with registration marks, you laminate, reinsert the job and send the job again as 'cut only'. The Roland finds the registration marks, calculates and adjusts for misalignment & stretch, and does the cut. You can print and cut from any software that can create vector outlines.
[ July 15, 2005, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Mike O'Neill ]
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
I will put my "two cents" in here. We mostly run SignLab and CorelDraw. We do have PhotoPaint and Photoshop too.
Last Fall we bought a VersaCamm and upgraded our SignLab for the addition. After printing to the VersaCamm with SignLab, we noticed that the colors were not what we were expecting. We had all the profiles, but when we compared the output from SignLab to the output form CorelDraw, we noticed that the colors were more vibrant and that certian colors that we were unable to achieve in SignLab were perfect using Corel. Orange was a troublesome color in the beginning, but in Corel, it looks great.
Another aspect of Corel that I really like is that you can do all the special effects and any photo alterations right in one program. The possibilities are endless. You are only limited by what you have not learned yet.
Even though I prefer Corel for the VersaCamm, Signlab is a great program too. We have used both for 8+ years. Signlab has some wonderful features and to be completely honest, Signlab makes some things easier so I will do part of my layouts in there and then export it out and into Corel if it is a VersaCamm project. These two programs work extremely well together...unlike other programs I have used.
One suggestion is that I have is when you get the VersaCamm, create a color swatch of your color palette. That way you can choose the right color ahead of time, because what you see on the screen is NOT the same as what you get. We have one for SignLab and one for Corel.
Have fun designing... I hope that I have help in some way.
Heidi
-------------------- Heidi Halmstad Sign Studio & Print Shop LLC. 156 S Lake Ave Phillips, WI 54555 hhalmstad30@hotmail.com Posts: 7 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I'm a Gerber user and have both GA 6.2 and Omega. I also have Corel and AI. I design in Gerber, I find it best for SIGN design, especially simple high production jobs. I'm sure this is because of my familarity with it. But I find Corel frustrating in some ways. For instance outlines and shadows are much easier in Gerber. You just make an outline and it's it's own element, no converting to strokes etc. Won't the Verscamm work with GA? Or as was suggested with the Omega upgrade?
posted
Wow, this has been a very eye opening thread! I've been using Signlab since v 2.2 and have Signlab, Omega, Corel Draw, Photoshop and Illustrator. I've never even *thought* about cutting from Corel but I am definately going to check into that; I will NOT be getting a nose bleed for a Signlab upgrade again.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
This post was great for us! We LOVE corel 12 and have been using it for years. Now we are in the process of purchasing the Versacamm so this is very helpful info. Ya gotta love this place!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
One further note about VersaWorks. It's dongle free! Well almost, the dongle is the Roland SP 540 itself. As long as your computer can see the 540 on the network you can install the RIP software, If you have multiple workstations this is a great bonus.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
No wonder we have no sign software Merchants in Letterville. It's taken years to convince these guys that Letterheads actually use other tools, like computers, instead of only paint and sticks with hair on them.
Now you gotta go and tell everyone they can create award winning stuff with an inexpensive desktop desktop publishing program. It just can't be true! Or is it?
Oh well. You can't win them all. At least we have some wonderful plotter and printer Merchants. Please don't tell me Corel makes plotters.
Just having some fun being a bit nasty and sarcastic. It's med time! Where's my pills?
[ July 18, 2005, 02:23 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
... B.b.b.but Steve, that's why we support the site, so we can be honest. It's not like I didn't invest in the 'sign softwares'.
What's truly sad is that these expensive 'professional' sign design softwares can't hold a candle to Corel. If I'm wrong, it's up to these companies to come here and explain how their products are better.
Hmmm... has Corel ever heard of letterville.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Rochon must be asleep. So, I'll take this one Bob.
We have one designer who is very Illustrator fluent, and one who is a big fan of Corel. So, kinda the best of both worlds. I personally like to design in Omega. Keeps me from designing something out of reach of the Edge system. Mike Jackson, the Golden Era guy uses Omega for his design software of choice.
Price wise, Omega is waaaaay more money. But it is waaaay more powerful when you consider how well it manages the Edge. I used to be bothered by the whole dongle key thing, but, when I see the amount of people who are willing to pirate software, I can see the wisdon in it. However, I think charging $1700 for a second key is absolutely ridiculous.
So Barb, as you can see, the preferences are all over the place. Basically, you love what you learn on, (kinda like the PC/MAC war). In our studio, it is all three, Illustrator, Corel, & Omega). This thread proves once again, it's a matter of preference.
[ July 18, 2005, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Corel company has a really good desktop publishing program called Corel Ventura. IT doesn't get much publicity but that is Corels desktop publishing program.
Corel Draw is a vector imaging software. It was not designed as a desktop publishing software. Corel Draw is doing techniques even the authors didn't know about.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
If I'm wrong, it's up to these companies to come here and explain how their products are better.
Mike, unfortunately thats not possible here at letterville. Steve has made it clear that if the software company wants to speak of there software features, they must become a merchant - kinda sad, but this is Steve's place.
Back to the topic,
We are a small to medium size shop and love Signlab. We have multiple design stations outputing to different print and cut queues. The way you can organize jobs is a great time saver.
If you have a Gerber Edge, then I would seriously consider Signlab. It can control the edge much better and easier then Omega.(I used to do design work in Illustrator, then play coloring book in Omega...)
If you are used to Gerber's software(and like it...) and not that familiar with Corel/Illustrator - then you will probably be better off sticking with Gerber's software.
Good Luck!
-------------------- Steve Smith Tag Signs, Inc Alpharetta,GA Posts: 20 | From: Alpharetta,GA | Registered: Oct 2002
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Looks to me like you have used Omega & Signlab extensively. What makes Signlab better than Omega? How does Signlab excell with the Edge over Omega? Just curious, and willing to learn
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I originally came from a multimedia backgound and mainly worked in adobe programs (Illustrator, Photoshop, After Effects, etc) and got used to the tools and workflows of the programs. GA and Omega just seemed counter intuitive to what I was used too. (more of a personal pref.)
As far as Signlab and the edge - you have alot more control over the edge. Here are a coulpe that have help us. A big time saver is being able to do multi-tone bitmaps (client gives you bitmap artwork and doesnt want to pay artwork charges but it needs to be 2 spot colors - no problem). We do alot of screenpress work, and being able to control halftones on a object by object basis is a great help. It also has a pretty cool perf. window tool that lets you do spot color perf film. You can contol the size of the holes and the shape (companies logo). This same tool lets you make double sided decals much easier than with omega. Being able to view the raw data has saved me many times. (you can view the actual output down to the pixel - but also able to view the different passes).
Hope this helps.
-------------------- Steve Smith Tag Signs, Inc Alpharetta,GA Posts: 20 | From: Alpharetta,GA | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
Steve. You must understand by now that Letterville is a fulltime business just like your sign company. You pay your bills and look after your Family making signs. We do the same here by various means. Offering adverising to our vendors is an important way of keeping the show going.
There's nothing sad about that at all. All companies reinvest a portion of their advertising in advertising. Your first line is a great description of advertising. Advertising IS making us all aware of new products and explaining why they are better.
Check with the sign mags, trade shows and other websites. There is no free lunch! All I can tell you is that becoming a Merchant here in Letterville is a fraction of other advertising methods.
Cheer up. Thanks to advertising and free enterprise, you and I are able to keep the kids fed and hopefully prevent them staining our gravesites after we are gone.
[ July 18, 2005, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
We have Corel and SignLab for 15 years now. Omega for the last 6.
We use SignLab for all of our designing and vinyl cutting. All Edge printing is done using Omega, usually using files imported from SignLab as .GAD files. Corel is used for a lot of our proposal sketches and any Edge work that would need gradient fills or complex artwork. But even those files usually start as SignLab files.
SignLab is much easier to use than Omega in my opinion. If you are familiar with Corel, SignLab is very similar since some of their programers came from Corel, they are both in Missisagua, Ontario.
posted
Lou..I can't help myself..it's actually spelled "Mississauga"...
And Corel Corporation is NOT based in Mississauga, but it is based in Canada's capital city called "Ottawa". I believe that Signlab/CadLink is also based in Ottawa.
I might be wrong but I very much doubt it.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Been Using Signlab for close to 10 years and Really LOVE the program But had to stop upgrading at 5.95 after I received a Email and Phone call stating that I could not get support for a Postscript font Error in their Program without spending $800 to $1000 for an upgrade. I have a hard time spending hard earned money to buy a FIX that should have been fixed in their program to begin with. If they Won't Support me I cant support them so I would really Recommend Corel 11 or 12. We are Seriously looking at the 54" Roland right now and I have heard and seen wonderful results with Corel and of course Photoshop.
(Side Note I loaded up the PS font which is the Registered National Park Service Font and Corel read it without a hitch and I imported into Signlab as an .AI file Go Figger)
posted
i can't see by signlab 5 rev12 for cut vinyl work. does everything i need and more... ive never been fussed on moving on from V5... i feel it starts leaning heavily towards printing. i suspect thats where glitches came with V6 but i have heard good reports about v7. its a top notch software and has never let me down for many years now. for images and digital work i use photoshop7 and also use a rip called troop. not sure if you have that over there but i believe its a rebadged flexisign rip.
[ July 19, 2005, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Robert Lambie ]
-------------------- Robert Lambie Glasgow Scotland UK
posted
I love Corel. It seems that you never quite finish learning how to use it, but that's a good thing. You figure out how to do something and you do it that way, then someone shows you or you stumble across another way to do it. It just has so many capabilites that I don't think you can ever fully learn all that it can do and everyway to do it.
I have Omega, hate it. I seriously think if Gerber didn't have you over a barrel with it (1 of 3 programs that can run the edge) and was sold only as a software, it would have died years ago. In my shop it is seen as an overpriced, under-featured glunky printer/cutter driver necessary to take files from useful programs and send to the edge.
I briefly played with Signlab. I have yet to talk to someone who ran an Edge with it and wasn't thrilled with it. Of course, after using Omega, anything would be an improvement. I'm now jonesing for Signlab to run the edge. Unfortunately, I keep having things happen that put me farther away from buying it money-wise.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
looks like someone needs to develop an edge driver for corel. I bet everyone with and edge would be willing to pay a few hundred bucks for that. I know I would if I still had my edge.
posted
Whilst i don't do and print/cut, i use corel 12 for my everyday things, i've tried borrowed copies of signlab, vinyl master pro, and a couple of others, and they just confused me until i threw them all in the bin !
i had no design or cad knowledge prior to buying corel, and with a little (well, ok... a lot) of help from my friends here and in the uk, i have started to become relatively proficient at it, and need to ask less and less questions as time goes on, very often i find that things are alot more 'practical' than you first think, and the processes all seem prett simple to me, which is good, cos i'm just a simple guy !!!
btw, i use summa winplot for the final 'throw it at the cutter' stage, which works fine for me, a direct plug in for corel 12 makes it simple !
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