quote:Originally posted by Bruce Bowers: I can see the headlines now....
"Local signmaker gets butt tromped by women... film at 11".
Or see it in person at Jill's Jamboree, August 19-21, 2005!!! Get your registration sent in today, don't miss this opportunity to see the girls of Letterville thump Boob's ass.
(This ad has been brought to you by The committee for shamless plugs for Jill's Jamboree.)
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted July 12, 2005 05:57 PM
karen we only let you belive your smarter...cause we men want to have sex with ya(women)....heheheheheheheheeheheh
[ July 12, 2005, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted July 12, 2005 06:02 PM
Hahahahahaha OP! See the thing really is we ARE smarter so we let you believe that you let us believe that we are smarter. Of course we KNOW the eventual goal for all guys is sex.
Kissy, Shall I bring my spiked heels for this event? LMAO?
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted July 12, 2005 06:49 PM
I got my Signcraft today and basically skimmed through the articles... main thing was looking at all the photos first!
I agree with Ray, but I'm also a redhead, so sometimes it's totally against my genetics to not speak up!
Does that mean that someone doing signs part time is not a 'dedicated professional'? Nettie said it perfectly. I bet for every part-timer that really loves the craft, I can find several full-timers that are just the opposite.
Does this mean that when I get working more at home here doing signs, but keep my job at the Veterinary Hospital, I need to cancel my subscription to Signcraft and no longer post here?
I can understand the 'clueless guy with the plotter down the street giving his stuff away' making people upset. But the work I saw featured looked pretty darn good.
The only thing that makes sense to me, is that the people most upset by this have had some personal experience with the clueless guy that made for some lasting impressions.
While I understand that part of the emotional effect, it is NOT fair to lump people together. Every situation that a person is in is different.
As much as you may think you know what is going on in another person's life, you have NO CLUE unless you are living right there with them.
Heck, I would be THRILLED to death to be in Signcraft!!!!!
But I guess I will NEVER be in there, no matter how well I do, since I CANNOT go fulltime with the signs. I will be a part-timer.
How fair is that?
-------------------- Dana Ferry St Cloud, MN Posts: 1556 | From: St Cloud, MN | Registered: May 1999
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Sometimes I believe we are starving Artists on the way to make more money and the next thing you know, everyone is opening a helping hand.......(To the new ones of this Industry on the Board.
Work is Work...(Small,Tall,HandPainted,Airbrushed,Vinyl,Digital,Print to the Business Cards....
All our backyards have buried Bones!
But that's what makes the learning curve!
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted July 12, 2005 08:51 PM
I enjoy Signcraft for a number of reasons. It is the only magazine I subscribe to besides AutoArt. I learn something new each time I open the pages. Thanks to all who contribute.
I do not feel as connected to it as I once did knowing that the guys who do the work are not rolling out the work to make a living. Here we have two different perspectives but reaching the same goal, A beautiful sign. Whether it was sold for top dollar or given away for free.
I'll apologize again if any person was offended by theses posts just so you know that there's no ego to inflate.
I have different expectations than the magazine has, and that's cool. I'll get over it, and continue to subscribe.
posted July 12, 2005 09:02 PM
Gee Mike, don't give such a moderate response, some here need you to get hurt and fire back.
Anyways, from what I gather, you seem to take umbrage from those who have the luxury of pulling out all the bells and whistles because they don't need to make their living doing this. Up to a point I agree, but good is good and should be showcased.
(Now you aren't about banning certain genders or minorities are you?) Yikes!
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted July 12, 2005 09:27 PM
Mike... please explain why you feel this way. I really mean that, I'm trying to understand, but am having a difficult time.
Do you honestly feel that unless you make enough money at signs to pay all your bills, you aren't worthy the recognition of your talent in the craft?
Would you feel differently about these people if they did nothing else but signs... but maybe their spouse had a higher income to help support the family?
I honesly am having a hard time understanding that logic.
If I am to understand you, the ONLY people that should be in Signcraft are people who do nothing but signs, and make enough to support their families on that alone?
Is it the money alone, or the amount of time invested, or a combination of both?
That part really bothers me, that money is the most important part of making a sign. Doesn't that start to seperate it from a craft?
Does it matter what the 'other' job is? What if a guy works 30 hours a week at signs, but then plays in a band 4 nights a week?
Does it matter if he is married or not? If he is single and can support himself better on just signwork - is that better than married, with a new baby and has to get a better job with more benefits to support his family during the day, but continue his signwork on the side, because it is what he loves to do?
What if he was fulltime sign guy, the shop closed up, and he had to work somewhere else? Would that automatically drop him from being recognized?
I know this is NOT a black and white situation, and VERY opinion orientated. But where do you draw the line?
If you base the worth of your fellow signcrafter soley on the amount of time he works at signs and the money he makes doing it, I think there is a great loss.
-------------------- Dana Ferry St Cloud, MN Posts: 1556 | From: St Cloud, MN | Registered: May 1999
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posted July 13, 2005 01:24 AM
Following this logic... I used to work over a 100 hours EVERY week at my sign business... but try not to go that crazy any more. There are weeks though...
I guess if I was to work 100 hours per week I would be ten times more qualified to appear in SignCraft than someone who put in a measly 10 hours per week or 2 1/2 times more qualified than someone who only did 40 hours... ??
I don't think so... thanks goodness. Its about the work produced.
The signs (done by the Mike Lewis who also owns a dry cleaning operation) pictured in the magazine are pretty awesome! I think they deserve to be there. Does it matter what he does in the rest of his time? How bout if he did boring no parking signs the rest of the week... would that qualify him?
As for the farmer... the article states Gord Colenutt is a FULL TIME sign guy and a part time farmer. His work is pretty spiffy too!
Here at Giggle Ranch I spend some time each day running the tractor and doing various chores as required by our 4 pigmy goats, two mini horses, and 7 chickens. And I mean scooping the poop. Sometimes I even do these chores during business hours. If its a nice day and the lawn needs mowing I do that too as a break from my busy day.
Today Janis & I snuck away for a afternoon matinee at the movies. I hope it didn't disqualify me from appearing in SignCraft in the future.
While I spend very few regular hours at Giggle Ridge Adventure Golf these days I certainly drop everything at the shop when there's some needed maintenance or they need me for some other urgent task.
I'll have to ask the folks at SignCraft next time I talk with them if there is some sort of minimum requirements to appear in those pages in regards to how my time is spent.
I always thought it was about good quality pictures of high end, original work.
I admire folks who can work at what they love each day and at the same time keep in focus the important things in life. If you have the means to do only the high end work and say no to all the ordinary stuff its the best!
At the Mazeppa Meet this past week there was one fellow who browsed through my portfolio... his question to me was " where's the pictures of the work you do inbetween the outrageous stuff pictured in the book? My answer was that this type of work was ALL we do. Period. Luckily for us we are able to exclusively do this type of work (but it didn't happen over night). It happens to keep me and my crew of three busy for 40 hours each (or more) per week.
That being said, I look forward to the day (in a few more brief years) our second business pays itself off. On that day I will get much more picky about the work we do each day and the projects we sign on to at our sign business... for I WON'T be relying on the income our shop produces any more to live on or make the outrageous payments... the golf will produce enough for us to retire on and live comfortably and in only 100 days each year.
On that day each and every project we do will be good enough quality to appear in SignCraft - I'll happily turn down everything else. (it will be up to the folks at SignCraft as to publish it OR NOT) Best of all, we will be able to do this work on a part time basis. I call it semi-retirement.
But then again, I last "WORKED" back about 30 years ago when I gave up my full-time job to do the same type of projects I currently enjoy. Its the same work I did previous to that as a part time thing after my regular job. To actually get paid for it is a BONUS!
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8741 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted July 13, 2005 02:02 AM
Dana, I never expected to go this deep into the subject, but here it is. It is void of any dollar value, recognition, or personal situation a person may have.
In order to run a profitable sign business, I take all of the influences of the trade and apply them to my business. Sure my creative side improves as well as the bottom line. Signcraft is one of those resourses.
Who doesn't want to follow in Dan Anotelli's shoes for creativity, or Bob Behounek's technical application of type and copy?
I relate to them because I know they are completly focused on this trade and thier sign work. They may be waiting tables at Applebee's, but the articles havn't said it, so my perception is in tact.
I cannot relate to someone who uses the trade as a side line. Relate to thier sign work? - Yes. Relate to a total commitment in runnning a sign business? - No.
When I cannot relate to something, I question its influence on my business and change my perspective to Its value.
On the other hand, There may be thousands of part time sign makers who do relate, and found those articles much like thier own situations.
My perspective of this board, is that most everyone here has committed to full time sign work. I realize many do other things to make money. I've been known to plow some snow for some extra coin in my free time.
I can relate to everyone banging out enough signs to be fully committed to it. I can relate to the day to day struggles and triumphs we all face. The reason I'm drawn here is to gain and share effective methods and information and experiences to improve my overall abilities.
So Dana, I ask you. Can you relate?
-------------------- Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted July 13, 2005 02:59 AM
Having one article out of the possible thousands that do relate to you or your business is not bad at all. There are a lot of sign people here that I do not relate to or they to me. But I can appreciate them and thier talents, take what you can get from it and move on. If you get nothing out of it but eye candy, then at least it was something. I guess your only concern would be if the magazine turned into a magazine for part-timers and judging from Signcrafts quality I seriously doubt that would ever happen.
I myself was a full time design employee, part time signmaker, now a full-time business and I have invested a great deal into this business prior to going full time. I have caught crap from former employers, sign hacks, and veteran members of this site for either my "part-time" status or they are clueless as to what I do or have done. I think when you start questioning the status or qualifications of one article out of hundreds of great ones, you might as well question the status of those here too. What or who is worth listening to and how does that relate to my or your business? I think we all have a great deal to learn from each other. I can relate to that......
(edit) ...of course after seeing Ol' Paint I can probably say that I may never relate to that dude...
[ July 13, 2005, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted July 13, 2005 05:44 AM
I'm gonna reply to this thread any second,but it doesnt quite have enuff responses for me to quote yet...
...i'm definitely gonna reply here in a minute we almost have enuff for a good quote
quote:Mike... please explain why you feel this way... ...I honesly am having a hard time understanding that logic.
well, Mike already replied himself, but I wanted to add that when someone feelssomething... that does not always have to be justified through "logic" I'm stuck in logic too much of the time, so I can attest to the fact that being able to "feel" requires turning that off sometimes.
...I feel that Mikes comment, if spoken at a meet would be followed with a casual... um.. yeeeahhh, I know whhhaatt ya meaannn... um, hey, sling me onedem brewskis... cool, Ya know what I think... I feel like the cover ofdat mag ouughtta been brighter... um.. yeeeahhh!
posted July 13, 2005 07:07 AM
No, actually, I can't relate. When I was doing nothing but signs, ANY information that someone was willing to share with me was appreciated. I spend countless hours on this board trying to learn. I didn't prerequisite the person to being fulltime, in order to learn from them.
Now I can't be in signs fulltime. (Notice I said CAN'T instead of WON'T.)
I guess that means I am no longer able to contribute anything, that I am worth less to the trade now, even though when I had my shop, I knew ALOT less than I do now.
How can you post something like that, then be surprised when people react to it? You basically said that anyone here that isn't running a sign shop full time, is basically worthless to contribute anything of value to someone that is.
Yeah, ok, um, I thought the cover was already pretty bright, that truck over there really needs new lettering, can someone hand me a diet pepsi?
-------------------- Dana Ferry St Cloud, MN Posts: 1556 | From: St Cloud, MN | Registered: May 1999
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posted July 13, 2005 07:55 AM
I just opened my latest Sign Craft. I'd be more up in arms about some of the work they are showcasing rather than whether the submitters are full time or part time.
Did you see the first business card?
Somehow I get the feeling Mike values some ones self sign worth on the number of hours one spends doing it during any given week.
So who changed the quality over quantity theory?
[ July 13, 2005, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted July 13, 2005 08:27 AM
I think there are several ways to look at things.
First off, I think SignCraft is doing right by showcasing all of the variables in the sign trade. I think it helps readers get an idea what is possible out there.
For instance ... some folks may be swayed away from doing something they love for fear of not being able to support their families. Showcasing people who are making it work ... in however they make it work, is inspiring.
I suppose that it could be viewed that someone who is running another business, and putting out fine signwork could be considered lucky because they have another source of income, and so they are now doing signwork as a "hobby".
With that logic then, would the same go for those who have a spouse bringing in money? Or those who have investment gains, or who inherited money?
Perhaps another way to look at it would be with admiration that someone can put hours into another business/job, and still have the time and energy to pull off such nice signwork. You know that some sacrifices would have to be made in the family dept. for that to happen. Wow, I can't imagine putting in hours at another job, and THEN attempting the sign trade. Knowing all that goes into that ... gets me tired just thinking about it.
Everyone's scenario is different. We all have percieved advantages and struggles in life. When it's all said and done at the end of the day, it's only in our own lives that we truly know what it takes to reach our rewards.
If you feel that someone who runs a second business has an advantage in this trade, why not try that on for size? Only then can you find out how that works, and if it's really easier.
There are times when I envy what I percieve to be advantages in another person's circumstances. But hey, we do all make choices that affect ours and knowing our options helps us to make the best choices.
In any event, I think that by showing us the various ways signmakers do what they do, SignCraft is doing right by us all.
posted July 13, 2005 08:56 AM
yeah bob...ya mean the stick figure one that says...race signs...i'm pretty good. i saw that and went...well alllllrighty then...i guess i can feel ok about sending my card someday when i get around to it.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted July 13, 2005 09:33 AM
Wwwell! By that logic, if I was the Jolly f'n Green Giant, and I spent half my day makin' purty signs, and the other half counting peas and squishin' smurfs, would that make me unworthy??
The derisive and convoluted mischaracterizations that some have made regarding Mikes topic, amaze, but certainly don't surprize me.
-------------------- Steve Purcell Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking Cape Cod, MA
************************** Intelligent Design Is No Accident Posts: 900 | From: Cape Cod, MA | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted July 13, 2005 11:11 AM
I went back & re-read the Mike Lewis profile. What I gleaned from it was that he has been doing signs full-time for something like 18 years. Then, he and his wife bought a dry cleaning business and he cut back to help her with that (which I see as him helping his wife with HER dream), and to spend time with their kids. Does that mean that the day he and his wife bought a dry cleaners is the day he became no longer qualified to be in a magazine? Forget his 20 or so years in the business, his sole income isn't from signs anymore. Gee, guess that disqualifies a lot of people who have a 2 income household.
I feel sorry for people who can't relate to wanting to spend time with their kids (or sick family member, etc.) or to helping someone else (spouse) attain their dreams.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted July 13, 2005 07:52 PM
Wow! That would be great, Stephen! Imaginre the theme song, huh? Maybe we'll get all the Letterhead musicians to join in... No, wait, that wouldn't be right, now would it? They got rall full time sign jobs to attend to...
Well, we're movin' on up, To the elitest side... No PT's in my magazines no more Yeah, we're movin' on up To the elitest side... All you non-full timers, there's the door.
Don't you make signs in your kitchen, No tradin' signs for a tab at the bar and grill. Don't work outta your garage or your cellar Cuz' you ain't real sign makers still... That's why I'm up in the big leagues and the rest of you'ns are real slime If you use vinyl and a cutter to make your bread and butter Then your world ain't got a place in mine...
Well, we're movin' on up, To the elitest side... No more part-timers in the magazines... Yeah, we're movin' on up To the elitest side... Cuz' those bastards just lived my dream...
Hahahahahahahahaha! This was meant to be seen in a humorous light. Hell, I'm laughing right now...
Honest.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6458 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted July 14, 2005 09:04 AM
Mike, Barry has a point about the "craft" vs "industry". I was featured in Sign Business back in '88. A four page article by Terry Wyke. (I forget what issue) But, it featured me as more of a craftsman than a part-time busnessman. I guess it is just how the article is written and how the reader obsorbs it. I can not begin to tell you how INTIMIDATED I was at my first few LetterHead get-to-gethers !!!! Mainly because I didn't consider myself a "real signmaker". Only a part timer. Ralph Gaither (USN-RET) from Gulf Breeze, FL was at Mike Sheehans meet in Pensacola way back when that gave me my first shot of "self confidence". Then, Ricky Jackson, Vince Balisteria, Mike Facemire, Ken Milar, Dusty Yaxley, John Cox, wow.... the list is ENDLESS of the ones that gave me (and many others) a boost to get to where we are now.... because ALL of them started out doing signs part time, honed their skills and eventually broke away from their "day job" to do signs full time. Still, to this day, I CAN NOT PAINT !!!! LOL And I don't advertise myself as a "painter". But, I can make the design dimensional. My buddy Pat King and I were equally impressed with each others talents in the beginning of our friendship because he could paint it to look dimensional, but couldn't do it.... I could make it dimensional, but couldn't paint it !!! I don't know of too many people that went right from high school or college into a sign shop full time. I, for one, had that full time day job and did signs (cheap signs, too, I might add) as a "hobby" until I broke away from it.
Steve and Barb have done a TREMENDOUS job here in Letterville in providing a "safe haven" to help us all obtain the knowledge and self confidence that one would need to break away from that day job and step into a world of self employment as an artisan.
I guess what I'm trying to say is.... the ARTISAN needs to be recognized for his talents. Whether it be his full time job or not, is not the issue.
-------------------- John Smith Kings Bay Signs (Retired) Kissimmee, Florida Posts: 817 | From: Central Florida - The Sunshine State | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted July 14, 2005 09:37 AM
I like what you just said, John. I always spent my time oil painting slates!!! Then I learned to airbrush. Then I worked in a sign shop for a few months til I got fired for talking bad about the secretary! They thought I wanted to beat her up!
Then I moved up here & worked catching papers off a press, they found I could apply vinyl & hired me, then I worked at a bigger paper, then opened my own shop.
I hope no one here thinks that since I started my whole life by painting slates that i am not qualified or have any business doing signs! Actually, I was very good in Commercial Art doing calligraphy years ago, too.
If we have the talent, the abilties,we should be using it!!!!!
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted July 14, 2005 09:50 AM
I feel fortunate in that I have worked full time in sign shops and on my own since I was in high school. While I have had an assortment of part time jobs to help get over the rough times, I have always been a sign painter as my main means of support.
To His glory and with humble appreciation for everyone who has helped me, I am grateful that I am in the place I am.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6458 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted July 14, 2005 01:08 PM
I have a full time job that I can do part time, as a letter carrier I'm done as soon as I can deliver my mail, which means I can do my job in 4 hours instead of eight. Then I can spend my time doing what I enjoy which is making signs. Mind you sometimes I spend six or eight hours a day making signs so I'm not sure which is part time or full time.
Maybe a part of Steves Jobs commencement address posted by Rick Sacks puts it into perspective.
No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don't want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.
Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.
-------------------- Alf Toy Adlib Graphics Saskatoon, SK Canada
I think maybe if I were to read between the lines of your posts, your core question arises from the seemingly lack of correlation between creative, and talented artists and their business acumen.
I think that this is something that is more common - a failure on some people to balance the creative energies with the nuts and bolts, and business savvy required to build a successful business.
I took two kids on the way, a wife home on bedrest, and being a sole provider of income and health insurance for my family to really have me turn the corner and redirect a lot of research, and effort into building a business. Of course, coupled with a true desire to be as creative as possible, has afforded me some of my success.
I think maybe we all look up more to people who seem to have both sides under control, but clearly, there's something to be learned from people who are stronger in one aspect than the other. I may admire ones work, and think their businss sense is poor, or vice versa. But clearly, I can still learn something - even if its what NOT to do in business.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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