posted July 08, 2005 02:48 PM
I find it ironic that with so many dedicated sign professionals in this industry, that a magazine that comes out 6 times a year would profile a Dry Cleaner and a Farmer who both do signs on the side and at night.
I have nothing against anyone who can make a beautiful sign. In fact I could do more of them if it was a hobby and I had another job to pay the bills.
But A magazine dedicated to the industry that featured a couple of "part-timers" just rubbed me the wrong way.
-------------------- Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted July 08, 2005 10:04 PM
Mike..I started out as a "Part Timer" too. Soon found out that I could make more money doing sign work full time than I was in my previous business.
Went "Full Time"...
Now I am "Part Time" again. Part of the time I work...the rest of the time I don't!
I do know what you mean though Mike. I have a hard time coping with a "Part Timer" in my area.
The problem is the guy is GOOD...but he works full time at a sign shop, knows his stuff, but moonlights with good quality layouts and work, just for "beer money/spare change" prices.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted July 08, 2005 10:05 PM
Mike, about 8 or 9 years ago, I got a job at a print shop up the road. No, not your basic Quickprint, he has a small paper. I had worked in a sign shop a few years before that, & he found out, so he hired me to put together his signs. He had put his son through schooling to learn to make signs, & his son decided he didn't like to do it, so he would do the layouts, cut it at home, then bring the stuff in for me to put together. The bad thing was, his son used mostly medium blue, & almost always helvetica! Ugh!
Anyway, I did this for Min. wage back then, then moved on to printing a big full sized newspaper about 40 minutes away. While there, i realized I did NOT like what I was doing, it was NOT artistic. (unless you call running the color on the front page artistic!)So, I decided to take out a loan for a plotter, & I started my own business. My old boss at the small print shop asked me to train a young girl to do what i did, but she didn't like it, so we made a deal.
I put his signs together, & sometimes I get to lay the jobs out & cut them myself. Sometimes his son does the layouts & has me put them together. I get $10 an hour plus an ad running in his weekly paper in 3 areas for our sandblasted rocks. It equals out very nicely, considering the cost of an ad in 3 papers! Plus, we DO get a lot of business from the ads.
I guess what I would like to say is, I do not like the Quickprint places at ALL. I think they really put a hurting on some of us, but I do not consider this guy one of them. There is a shop about 30 miles from here that does everything, junk store, U Store it, mulch, truck accesories, & you guessed it... signs & banners! I don't like that, but what can I do?
I guess maybe we ought to think about the guys in the magazine this way... If they are talented artistically, they should be doing something with it, right? If they are NOT talented artistically, well then....
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted July 08, 2005 10:17 PM
Mike, Question---I rent a Storefront for my sign bus. but in My small town there isn't enough bus for me to afford the toys or other wants that I have. I am open 4 hours every week day and all day saturday. I have tryed full time but I didn't pick up anymore bus. than I already had. I work as a carpemter the rest of my time..
Does this make me a part timer? If it does o'well.. but my passion is in signs and lettering.. and I thought that that was what letterheads was about..If I was full time I would put the same effort and love into signs as I do now.. So I could starve by just making signs or make a living and still have fun and make more money by doing what I like also..
Just another opinion
Jason D
-------------------- Jason Davie 193 Front Street Deposit, NY 13754 Posts: 976 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted July 08, 2005 10:32 PM
Jason..Keep doing what you are doing if it works for you!
From your picture I believe you are still a young guy and you have to or want to do whatever it takes to earn a decent living. Keep doing it!!!
I have no problem with anyone earning money however they can (legitimately ) My earlier post was acually my frustration at a person who is already employed in the sign business full time, driving down prices locally because he can do it in his "after hours" time.
This particular person, if he had the inclination to go self employed, could be earning far more than he does as an employee at his present job.
BUT self employment isn't for everyone.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted July 08, 2005 10:40 PM
dave, as far a s my prices go I'm priced with Estimate which is at least equal too the compition or a little above.. Just because Im part time im not lowering my prices .. no way..
Thanks !! Jason D
-------------------- Jason Davie 193 Front Street Deposit, NY 13754 Posts: 976 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted July 08, 2005 10:54 PM
Jason..I never meant to imply that YOU didn't price properly..
And I KNOW that you always get a "deposit" now that I see where you reside!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted July 08, 2005 11:41 PM
Mike, I never said I didn't get your point....I empathize with your gripe....but if the "part-timers" work is good enough to be in Signcraft, don't they deserve the same level of recognition as a "full-timer"?
posted July 09, 2005 02:19 AM
Barry, thanks for getting us back on topic - here's my take on it - I see your point, quality shines no matter the source, but I gotta agree with Mike. There's some people out here who have paid their dues, producing some killer work and sending it in, but it's not published.
I saw an Australian blues guitar player last night who won the International Blues Challenge in Memphis this year (Jimi Hocking) but by the third set, only 10 people were left in the place to witness an unbelievable behind-his-head-while-doing-a-split T-Bone Walker chunky riff that left goosebumps on the few folks lucky enough to stick around. I guess Rodney Dangerfield got it right.
(that was an analogy - did it work?)
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted July 09, 2005 05:50 AM
Well I am a full time student at College to futher my education in this business and a part time Signwriter at night to bring in money for FOOD,BEER,GAS,BILLS................
After 30 years of doing this I never low ball a price to pick up the work.....
I know what I am worth and have many customers return because they know my work.
I have had many upcoming talented people ask if I would teach them to Airbrush or to Paint or Design Graphics....
My response is for them to look around,study what they see,and pratice what they like and know. Everyone needs to eat even if it's the crumbs left over.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted July 09, 2005 10:24 AM
Sonny...good point. Far be it from me to say that both sides don't have merit.
I just empathize with the mag....and the part timers to a degree...is their contribution to the biz somehow less worthy 'cause they can't support their families with the occupation where they live?
Myself, I don't know if I love this biz enough to do it AND another job. If I couldn't pay the bills doing it...then I'd do something else....so from that perspective, my hat is off to the part time guys who may love it even more than me!
[ July 09, 2005, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
posted July 09, 2005 11:08 AM
I think the problem here is not the part-timer but the fact that the guy does it for beer and chips. Because he isn't relying on it for his main income. maybe you should go over there and let him know that he is leaving money on the table. I myself am a part-timer because there is not enough work here in little town farmer USA to support 4 sign shops. But I love the work. So I went and got my journeymen's in electrical work construction. No one does the old signs here, just print and stick (not meaning any disrespect you understand.. it's good work too) so I am trying to introduce 3D signage and the like. As well as better my talents to offer a more traditional sign. But I do not... NOT lower my prices. Some times I'm higher because I have to work at night. But even in the electrical business there are carpenters low balling the bid because they do it on the side. Regulation is making it harder for them to do that because a messed up electrical job will cause a fire... which could loose a life. Hummmm maybe if we could show how a bad sign could cause mental distress... and then all kinds of symptoms then they might regulate and licence signpeople... :}
-------------------- Shane Bennett Bennett Signs & Designs 17134 State Hwy. 80 Richland Center WI 53581 contact@bennettsigns.biz Posts: 41 | From: Richland Center WI | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted July 09, 2005 10:09 PM
i can understand that if a part timer is cuting prices for beer money, then that is a bit harsh on someone trying to make a living, but like i think Barry said, if someone is working part time, producing high quality work, and charging an appropriate rate, then i see no problems,
i would still consider myself part time, even though i have no full time job, i bought my cutter cos i was fed up waiting indefinetly for signage for my race car, and decals to sell on at the track, well i never really got to use the machine to sign my car, other than signs which were only on for a weekend or two for fun, and the odd job for a mate,
following redundancy about 4 months ago, and after having no luck finding a job which suited my needs (ie allowing me to still have my kids for 6 days at a time, drop em off for school and get to work kinda stuff,) i decided to learn to use the cutter properly and have a go at building this into a profitable business,
after only a couple of months, i am at a stage where i will soon be able to fully support myself, sure the first few jobs were probably underpriced, but all my work now goes on a materials mark up of about 300% and an hourly rate which i feel is fair, i'm not too sure what the biger companies charge per hour for labour, but i charge around £10-15 per hour (20-30$) depending on the customer and what i think the're prepared to spend,
it's worked so far and i've even got jobs where i've quoted higher than other people !! only this wek i was given a job, where i was $40 above the cheapest of three quotes, because the guy liked my attitude, the fact that the lettering was simple and included what he wanted, not what i told him to have, and that i was fast (4 days from first meeting to having the van, sign boards and stickers all done and in his hand !).
i have a lot to learn, both technically and artistically, but i beeive that if i'm fair, i'll get the work, at the rate i'm going, i'll be going as a fully reg'd business in the next two months. full time or part time, we all started somewhere !!
posted July 10, 2005 06:15 AM
Mike, Let me say right off- I would love to be featured in SignCraft! Here's why: I've been in the biz for 25 tears, I believe I am a dedicated sign professional, I have produced some pretty nice work, I have a 1200 sq. ft. shop, The shop pays all the bills except food & mortgage. So I have a target number of $$ I need to bring in monthly. I work 70 - 80 hours a week. It just so happens that 40 of those hours are spent at an outdoor advertising company. Call me crazy, but I love what I do; and plan on doing it till I die. and longer if I thought I could! BTW my prices are a bit higher than other nearby shops, and I get referrals from them for some of the more involved sign work. I also tend to remind these folks that they may be leaving $$ on the table.
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted July 10, 2005 11:55 AM
Just to add a comment, when I was first profiled/featured in SignCraft in 1997, I was part time as well. I had just given notice to my employer, and about a week or so after my article came out, I was doing it full time.
But I did do it part time for about 8 months, prior to full itme.
If they're good enough to make it in there, then I'm not sure how their employment status factors in. It's like discounting their work because they don't work full time at it. Quailty is quality, regardless.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted July 11, 2005 03:24 PM
Well said, Dan. I too, for many years worked a 40 hr week and did signs in the garage at night until going full time in 1995.
Our own Grampa Dan runs his shop and also has a mini-golf resort. Steve Thomas Greer has a small ice cream store chain that is very successful and he gets to do the signs and interior graphics for them at the same time!
Our shop takes care of itself now, but if my wife had not had a good paying job during those start-up years, I wouldn't be where I am today.
The love of this craft and producing top quality work is the key.
I had a chance to visit with John Parker from Iowa at the Muster. John has recently turned his shop over to his son and is now getting to play with a lot of gold leaf glass and glue chipped pieces in his spare time. He is doing some beautiful work and thoroughly enjoying it.
posted July 11, 2005 03:36 PM
I've seen a lot of work done by full-time signpeople that would never be good enough for SignCraft. (At least I would hope SignCraft would never be that desperate that they would need to fill it with that kind of crap. )
What is wrong with a part-timer being in the magazine? If their work is good enough, I have no problem with it. What's next? Women shouldn't be in it?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted July 11, 2005 05:15 PM
i thought the farmer was a fulltime signmaker and part time farmer...not that it really matters. the dry cleaner dude had some really nice stuff...doesn't really matter if he's part time or not...his signs looked good to me. maybe they don't have as many people as you think that send in their stuff. i know sign of the times interviewed me last winter(not that they are picky...lol)and i was suppose to send in some high quality pictures on cd...but i never got around to it. she called a few times but i was just too busy at the time and forgot all about it...i'm sure they'll never give me the time of day again...but whatta ya do. i think there are plenty of talented folks out there that are just too shy or just too busy to approach them.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted July 11, 2005 06:10 PM
I have to say that I believe there are many people who don't perform a "defined" craft as a full time profession, yet, they could easily blow the socks off of many full timers.
This is true of mechanics, farmers, signmakers, etc.
Case in point: My father-in-law got fed up with the shoddy farming his paid farmer did on his property. This was a full-time farmer...who would till around a dead tree that fell into the field from the edge of the field, rather than move it out of the way.
So, my father-in-law hires this part-time farmer who works full time at GM. This guy moved all the dead fallen trees out of the way....ditched out a low spot in the middle of the field (that the other farmer let become a swamp) -and then laid tile to drain it, and picked up all the stones in the field, etc......what an awesome job this part-timer does.
And isn't it great we live in countrie(s) where people have the freedom to pursue whatever interests they have, and have the freedom to make extra money for whatever reason they choose?
I do several jobs that used to be full-time shop jobs....I didn't go looking for them either. Wonder what that means?
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted July 11, 2005 08:31 PM
I can see the headlines now....
"Local signmaker gets butt tromped by women... film at 11".
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted July 12, 2005 12:51 AM
Again I want to state that I have nothing against anyone who can make a beautiful sign part time, full time or beer time. I did not mean to degrade anyone. It was an observation of the magazine itself. Sonny is on my thought line.
I have a new perspective of a magazine I thought was geared to those who had made sign making thier number one priority as far the trade is concerned.
I guess I was thrown off track when they went to the effort to publish a price book to calculate overhead to run a profitable shop.
Why go through all the trouble when your targeting and featuring sign makers who have an evening hobby?
Hey, and what happened to that all important segment where they were to feature sign makers doing other hobby stuff like riding bikes and playing guitars?
A color by numbers page would be great for the kids too.
-------------------- Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted July 12, 2005 01:40 AM
I guess that Mike figures SignCraft should feature full timers who produce crap, rather then those who pruduce work that sets a goal for the rest of us!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted July 12, 2005 02:02 AM
i do see your point mike...but i don't mind looking at the eye candy if its good....and can only hope they are charging enough. i do admit i think some of their "design and price" prices are too low. but i guess thats a problem with this trade, when part timers(or anyone) sell their work short of true monetary value. i'm so burnt out at this stage that i don't care if someone bytches about pricing...i tell them...feel free to go somewhere else. (which in my head translates to...kiss my lily white ass...i'm here to make a living not fund your halfwit projects.) fine, go to "gimme a case of beer joe"...let him work all his evenings and weekends on his little hobby...eventually maybe he'll get his head outta his ass and figure out a case beer or $20 an hr isn't worth it all his free time.(thankfully we don't have many of those here). i don't wish to live in a shack and eat kraft macaroni and cheese if i'm gonna work this hard.
so mike i understand what you are saying if you are implying that many of the hobbiest are not doing the industry justice by gleefully making signs in their spare time for pocket change. the magazine should be directing folks in the industry to succeed and charge accordingly...i think maybe signcraft is more geared toward the craft rather than making the big bucks so to speak.
why is it that graphic artists can charge higher hourly wages than us(we have WAY more overhead and understand SIGN layout/construction)& they have not a clue about constructing a sign or vehicle lettering???
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote: why is it that graphic artists can charge higher hourly wages than us
Because so many, want to remain completly independant, and refuse to conisder any type of unity from which all would benefit in the long run. Look what the Chiropractors did. Look what the Realtors did. Plumbers, Electricians etc.. All got together and formed guilds to stop any ol' jack leg from starting up. But then again, maybe thats the problem. So many started up as hobbyists they dont want to stop that tradition.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted July 12, 2005 09:30 AM
When the McIltrots began publishing SignCraft they did it part-time, working on a ping-pong table in their grandparents garage.
Their full time job was running a sign shop.
I think I may write more later about the subject of part-timers. Right now I would probably say something stupid (as if that's not normal). My mother always told me that it is better to be silent and be considered a fool than to open my mouth and remove all doubt. But I will probably open my mouth a little later and remove any doubts.
By the way, when I started writing for SignCraft I was not a full time writer...and come to think of it I still do it part time.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted July 12, 2005 12:41 PM
On the cover of the Sign Craft Magazine it states "The guide to profitable and creative sign production" I read it as Mike is emphasising the profitable part, but others are emphasising the creative part. They are accomplishing both.
Maybe they should have some people in the next issue who do awesome stuff, just spectacular work, but are loosing money hand over fist.
-------------------- Phil Steffen, 29 Van Rensselaer St City of Saratoga Springs DPW Saratoga Springs NY 12866 Posts: 563 | From: beautiful Saratoga Springs NY | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted July 12, 2005 01:00 PM
We run our little golf course part time... for about a hundred days each summer. I think its world class.
Sometimes I work as a designer and design some pretty cool things. It sure beats working for a living.
I also run a shop where we build the funnest projects... my time is divided between a multitude of jobs, my crew of three works full time.
I also write the occasional article for SignCraft on a very part time basis.
I love to any work of quality and don't much care weather the artist is full time or part time.... its the work and passion which counts for me.
I haven't seen the latest issue yet... but am looking forward to it... as usual.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8739 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted July 12, 2005 02:26 PM
WOMEN...now there is a problem....hehehehehehe
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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