posted June 28, 2005 02:56 PM
Sonny, sounds like your customer is homo-phobic to me. Tell him real men do eat quiche, and they aren't afraid of rainbows either!
Maybe he just needs to get in touch with his feminine side. heehee
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
According to an article I read some years ago, a portion of the funds they, (United Way) receive goes to the Gay movement and related causes. I suppose they have to share equally..
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3487 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Generally accepted as part of their movement.
If I had a "movement" that was the color of the rainbow...you'd be darn sure I'd be getting that checked out by a specialist!!!
I'm getting tired of being called *intolerant* and attacked on every front by the hetero-phobes. I liked it much better when their sex lives were kept private.
This all started when they quit putting caboose's on the ends of trains....and when they started putting half slices of cheese on McDonald's fish sandwiches.
It also coincided with Walmart's rapid expansion plans....
There was a day when a plumber proudly displayed his crack while bending over and working on the pipes of your kitchen sink....it was a professional trademark. Now, they've taken to wearing suspenders for fear of sending "false signals."
posted June 28, 2005 04:17 PM
S ince we are sign makers and banner makers, we ought to know the following, which came up on a simple google search:
============================================ Rainbow Pride and Related Symbols
The rainbow flag has become the easily-recognized colors of pride for the gay community. The multicultural symbolism of the rainbow is nothing new — Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition also embraces the rainbow as a symbol of that political movement. The rainbow also plays a part in many myths and stories related to gender and sexuality issues in Greek, Native American, African, and other cultures.
Use of the rainbow flag by the gay community began in 1978 when it first appeared in the San Francisco Gay and Lesbian Freedom Day Parade. Borrowing symbolism from the hippie movement and black civil rights groups, San Francisco artist Gilbert Baker designed the rainbow flag in response to a need for a symbol that could be used year after year. Baker and thirty volunteers hand-stitched and hand-dyed two huge prototype flags for the parade. The flags had eight stripes, each color representing a component of the community: hot pink for sex, red for life, orange for healing, yellow for sun, green for nature, turquoise for art, indigo for harmony, and violet for spirit.
The next year Baker approached San Francisco Paramount Flag Company to mass-produce rainbow flags for the 1979 parade. Due to production constraints — such as the fact that hot pink was not a commercially-available color — pink and turquoise were removed from the design, and royal blue replaced indigo. This six-color version spread from San Francisco to other cities, and soon became the widely-known symbol of gay pride and diversity it is today. It is even officially recognized by the International Congress of Flag Makers. In 1994, a huge 30-foot-wide by one-mile-long rainbow flag was carried by 10,000 people in New York's Stonewall 25 Parade.
The rainbow flag has inspired a wide variety of related symbols, such as freedom rings and other accessories. There are plenty of variations of the flag, including versions with a blue field of stars reminiscent of the American Stars and Stripes and versions with superimposed lambdas, pink triangles, or other symbols.
The Victory Over AIDS Flag modifies the rainbow flag by adding a black stripe at the bottom. Suggested by a San Francisco group, the black stripe commemorates those we have lost to AIDS. Sergeant Leonard Matlovich, a much-decorated Vietnam Veteran dying of AIDS, proposed that when a cure is eventually found the black stripes should be removed from all the flags and ceremoniously burned in Washington, D.C.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted June 28, 2005 04:37 PM
Besides, why do they use the rainbow as their symbol? Why don't they use the earthworm or some other asexual creature?
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3820 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted June 28, 2005 04:45 PM
So Doug, what does this say about you?
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted June 28, 2005 05:03 PM
Awww Geeezzz Brian...And Doug hasn't even posted his thoughts on this thread yet!!!!!!!!
BUT, I bet he does NOW!!!!!!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted June 28, 2005 08:31 PM
actually the oldest record of a rainbow is in the Bible. God used this as a symbol/promise not to flood mankind again...
It's a shame that we have to "accept" others views that this is their symbol. I don't, I also don't force others to accept the correct view that this is a Christian symbol twisted by nons.....
Now to add a relevant non-hijacking thread comment:
I had a customer 5 yrs ago want some rainbows on her store front. I said sure. charged accordingly and then she said that she thought I'd have a problem with the "gay-pride" symbol. I said "no I crafted you God's Rainbow like in the ACCURATE story of Noah. we both walked away knowing where we each stood. (honestly though, I didn't even have the thought of Gay-pride cross my mind.)
I don't like anything shoved at me, nor do I like to "shove" back. BUT I won't back away from the truth.
gotta go before I get roasted. had little sleep, just had a baby. so there
-------------------- Matthew Rolli AdCraft Sign&Design Hudson, WI Posts: 280 | From: Hudson, WI | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted June 28, 2005 09:13 PM
You are right, Matt!
About a month ago, I was behind a Jeep, & saw a rainbow sticker on it, & was trying to remember what it meant. Then I read the license plate & it said I AM RU.
As for the earring in the left ear thing, when I was in high school, around 1978, I remember all the guys getting one ear pierced, but they said to make sure you could see it from their car door. In other words, left ear to be straight, not gay. What, did they steal that rule too?
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted June 28, 2005 09:27 PM
A Hawaiian tradition suggests a woman who is single would wear a flower behind her right ear & if she is "taken" she would wear it behind her left ear, or closest to her heart (maybe it was written before car windows )
...maybe the figured adorning a right ear attracts men... so they stole that rule too
(hey Brian... like my new logo? ...I only make 3 color signs now )
posted June 28, 2005 10:13 PM
Well I might as well stir the pot a bit on this issue but as an openly gay leatherman in my city I'd like to point out that the rainbow is not just a gay symbol these days but rather a symbol of diversity, pride and tolerance within many groups including those considered a minority.
What ticks me off is when people think that my being honest with myself and people around me is somehow tossing sex in their direction. Its not... sex happens at home or at other closed venues and thats where it belongs.
I get the straight guys yelling slurs when they see me wearing my leather outside our local leather/denim/fetish bar yet you don't see the gay guys hanging outside the straight bars doing the same back at em. I'm convinced that their need to yell 'fag' or any other derogatory comment as a sign of somehow being threatened by a gay guy, especially when I don't do drag or act like a woman trapped in a mans body.
The sad thing is that some straight men have a double standard on the whole "same sex" issue as proven by a bar bouncer who was terminated last year for tossing out two guys for kissing. While arguing his case for unjust dismissal he said that had it been two women kissing instead of men he'd have "asked them to wait so I could get a camera". He lost his case... go figure!
I should add that somewhere along the road to realising I was 'different' than the rest of the guys in school I never picked up on the stereotypical gay "traits". I am a horrible cook and luxury meals come in a Swanson tray out of the microwave, decorating is not one of my skills either. The most creativity I have is making signs but stencils on my walls and making curtains is not me either. I'm not a wine connaisseur - Keiths beer for me! And I don't have any fashion sense at all. You'll find me most comfortable in Levis and a tshirt. No GAP labels on my clothing. My mom has already said I'm a natural bachelor anyway after watching me stuff mixed laundry into one wash!
Thanks for hearing me on this issue and any comments are always welcome.
posted June 28, 2005 10:48 PM
A bar where people can come dressed in whatever they feel comfortable in, as long as its legal according to our "stuck in the '50s" liquor board.
Goes for both men and women of course but fetishes could be punk, goth, skinhead, leather, latex, rubber/neopreme outfits, fishnet stockings or the french maid type of outfit, corsets, footwear like high heels or boot lovers. Even uniform lovers are welcome and you'll see the people who collect and wear their law enforcement or military attire, athletic gear such as soccer kit or football gear, the occasional guy dressed as a fireman, the construction or mechanic attire... you name it, the list is pretty much up to your imagination.
We had a Fetish Ball here a couple of months ago and you saw straight, gay and bi folks mingling together and some very creative costumes, including a girl who had made her entire top and miniskirt out of - DUCT TAPE! And yes it was stuck to her. Many different colors at that. Thankfully she probably didn't have the concern of painfully removing chest hair as she unwrapped herself at home later that night.
Hope that helps out with your question Todd. Let me know if you are still wondering and I can dig up some web resources. Thanks!
posted June 28, 2005 11:03 PM
Let me preface what I am about to say by mentioning that one of my closest friends is a gay guy. He's a good person, if a little self-centered (that is not to pigeon-hole EVERYone of a given persuasion, just an observation regarding my friend). That said I really enjoy his friendship...but draw the line when gets in the mood to act that "certain way", or talk about certain topics. I don't dig it, don't agree with it, and he is well aware of my position.
I believe Jean, or my friend or whomever have every right to live the way they want....but I don't want to see it. I think Public displays of either sort are inappropriate, and uncalled for.
No offense Jean, but I have no desire whatever to catch a glimpse of you in whatever get up you refer to with the Leatherman thing...nor do I wanna see you or anyone else making out with their "significant other".
My friend is not overt in "shoving" his lifestyle on my family, and on those rare occasions when he has ventured somewhere I don't want him to go in front of my kids, he has gladly backed off...not because I SAID SO...but out of mutual respect.
I wonder why it is that so many gays feel compelled to scream their orientation everywhere they go? Can you not be a quiet fulfilled gay guy at home or with friends of similar mindsets or persuasions without having to foster it on others who do not care for the lifestyle?
I know my rep. and I assure one and all that I am not trying to combust this topic....I just felt that if Jean could mention fetish balls (I will not make a joke..), the "other side" could be heard from too.
that said, flame away....
**edited for spelling
[ June 28, 2005, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
quote:Originally posted by Barry Branscum: I wonder why it is that so many gays feel compelled to scream their orientation everywhere they go? Can you not be a quiet fulfilled gay guy at home or with friends of similar mindsets or persuasions without having to foster it on others who do not care for the lifestyle?
It's funny, Barry - and this is sincerely not an attack - I've wondered the very same thing about plenty of Christians.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted June 28, 2005 11:14 PM
Show's you how stupid I am....I thought it was some kind of fish buffet...
Guess I'll stick to my rubber werewolf mask on halloween....the kids get a kick out of me jumping out of the cornfield howling like banshee. The wife just rolls her eyes.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted June 28, 2005 11:15 PM
I just got back to see that this post really took off, and thank you all for keeping it civil. I didn't know anything about the Disney characters, and Jean-Claude, I also had never heard of a Leatherman, although I do know what twinks and bears are. (Is that why they retired Smokey the Bear?) It's a strange, crazy world and I have no problem with diversity - things would be pretty boring otherwise.
I guess what bothers me about the rainbow symbol is that I started my first business in 1971 while I was at Clemson University and named it Rainbow Graphics. We did screen printing, design, and signs for 12 years before I sold the company and moved to Atlanta. I wasn't bothered that the new owner changed the name, but I didn't understand until later, that in that timeframe, the gay movement had stolen my logo. I don't mind sharing, but apparently, we're not able to use that symbol anymore without the obvious homosexual reference.
I don't get out much, so if you guys know of any other symbols that mean something I'm oblivious to, please inform me. Just wondering, the Rolling Stones' tongue is still OK for old rock n' rollers, isn't it?
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted June 28, 2005 11:19 PM
Barry - I completly respect your views and thoughts. I think what needs to change in society is the fact that a man and woman can hold hands walking in public without any fear 365 days a year, yet as a gay man I can really only feel safe doing the same one day a year which would be our local Pride event. Holding hands with another guy would bring threats of violence from many around us on any other day of the year.
I guess I'd question why we shouldn't be treated as equals when it comes to being out in public rather than the usual suggestion of "keep your lifestyle at home". So a gay couple should be lovers or life partners behind their closed doors but "roommates" or "just friends" when out in public. No way! I did the double life for almost 20 years and have no intention of being shoved back into a closet by anyone.
As for the leatherman thing. No worries about what you'd see as its probably the same as you'd see many motorcyclists wearing: Jeans, chaps, leather vest, possibly a leather jacket, a pair of black boots and a leather ball cap. Certainly more respectable than some of the stuff young girls are wearing these days which can be very sexual suggestive in nature.
posted June 28, 2005 11:23 PM
Jon---this is SINCERELY not a flaming reply.
You are absofrgiggin'lutely (I know, not a word) right. Christianity has the rep it has today because of that.....a lot of folks do that, and it is not cool. I used to, but I don't anymore.
That said. a lot of theose who do that..nd understand I am not referring to TV preachers, but individuals who are sincere in what they believe....they don't "share the'ir faith for selfish reasons, at least they don't think they do. I would question if the same could be said of the other side of the comparison you made Jon.
posted June 28, 2005 11:30 PM
Jean--thanks for your kind words and response. In a free society, irrespective of Religious more's you should have that freedom. But in the same socoiety, I can politely not like it. Others are not so tolerant. and there you have the caviat....Couple that with ACT UP and things like the gay pride days you mentioned...all those things are uncomfortable, and in many cases INDECENT events and situations. Why do certain gays take "PRIDE" in cavorting naked or nearly so in public committing lewd acts....I know some don't, but many do. Does that help promote an atmosphere of equality?
The dilemma is the discontinuity between MORALITY (perceived or REAL) and the societies in which we live.
posted June 28, 2005 11:41 PM
You hit the nail right on the head Barry - The nudity shouldn't have any part in the celebrations. Our local parade committee bars all nudity or indecent activity in the parade and will ask police to act on such complaints.
Total nudity can take place at private parties or at the bathhouses. Shirtless guys in a parade is fine with me and most straight ladies come to see the sights but then we get the lesbians and some(I hate to use the word) feminists who will rip off their tops arguing if the men can do it then so can we etc etc. We might as well all dress up in Skidoo suits and sweat during the parade.
Sure there are bound to be some activities during pride week that would not be suitable for some straight folk but no one forces them to pay the $5 and enter a rented auditorium to see a gay-themed theatre production or fashion show or whatever happens in a closed venue. If a private S&M demo or safe sex toy use demo is held during that week and a straight couple want to pay the entrance fee then great, I'm happy they came to learn in a setting where they are comfortable, and they'll be welcomed with open arms and with an open mind.
This part might go off onto another area of the discussion but it has to do with the 'gay excuse' some people will use to explain their actions:
On June 6th at 10:30am I was at my desk when I heard some lady screaming bloody murder in my apartment building lobby upstairs. I ran up the stairs and encountered my 29 year old male neighbour physically assaulting his mother who is in her late 50s. I stepped between the two and he went downstairs to his place and I offered assistance to the mother if she wanted to call the police. She was shaken, has some light abrasions but was basically okay and just wanted to drive back home. So I walked her to the car and watched her drive off.
When I came around the corner at the bottom of the stairs to go back home I was met with a sucker punch that was followed by another and I fell headfirst into the solid door casing. My neighbour walked into his place and I entered mine and when turning the deadbolt he body checked the door which pinned my against the wall and the punches to the face and head started over again. When I collapsed from getting dizzy he booted my head numerous times - hard enough to cause my head to bust a hole through the 1" thick drywall in my kitchen.
I finally called 911 and he was still banging at my door, threatening to stab me and kill me like his mother was gonna be killed. The cops showed up and he was arrested. He was in for a psych assesment for a week and them in lockup until his court appearance yesterday where he was locked up again until his plea on the 14 of July.
This was a guy who I'd become good friends with over 3 years and we'd often share a few beer on a Friday nite. He knew I was gay and I knew he wasn't. No problem there.
Yesterday his psych report was made public - his reason for assaulting me... I'm a fag. The judge just shook his head at that one. Apparently he must of expected to get away with killing his mother without anyone getting involved.
So after a week of dealing with massive headaches, footprints on my face and bruising all over I finally started getting back to normal. Hearing his excuse in court just gave me the willpower to make sure the f**ker rots in jail for as long as the law allows.
posted June 28, 2005 11:54 PM
I feel the same thing about gays and lesbians who want to go to church.
And then there's that whole GAY PRIDE parade...why the need to walk down the street chanting and flaunting what is admittedly a alternative (read Deviant from normalcy) Lifestyle?
I agree that a homosexual should be given equal opportunity to a job home and future.
I do not agree that public displays such as parades and the like should be warranted or allowed. Free speech and so on...and it is your right but it is mine and others who share the opinion to respectfully disagree.
I ask again WHY is there such an urge for flagrant public displays?
**edited cause I didn't wanna post twice--not edited just added to.
[ June 29, 2005, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
posted June 29, 2005 12:11 AM
Myra - thanks for the article on the flag history. I just with the Victory over AIDS could be celebrated.
One of my closest friends is dying from the disease and it hurts to watch him become weaker and more frail with each passing day. I dragged him out to WalMart today so he could buy some hand lotion he needed and this is no longer the 36 year old who always had unlimited energy. In fact he had to sit on the bench after only being on his feet for 10 minutes or so.
The doctors say his body had stopped reacting to any previous meds he was on and its a waiting game to see if something new comes along in time. Mutual friends who have been through this before with others are telling me to be ready as they don't think he'll make to the Fall. I'm not looking forward to that phone call that could come anytime.
posted June 29, 2005 12:32 AM
Getting back to the rainbow used for the "rainbow coalition"... I was asked to produce the banners a couple years ago. The way that they do this is to have Kinkos produce them at any location in the country so they can have them immediately for short notice rallies.
Kinkos makes a fortune, but, the artwork for banners, not only the rainbow c. can be emailed to any of those cities to the Kinkos and the banner will be ready the next day. Jesse does many things at the last minute, of course.
The banner for the Rainbow Coalition is extremely simple, but they get over a thousand buckaroos for a 20' by 4', I believe, but I may not be exactly correct on the measurements. And, I've never made the banners to this day. If it was any banner, I could possibly make it and get it to Chicago, if I had the banner ahead of time.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted June 29, 2005 12:34 AM
Barry, IMO, I think you have shown with your words on several posts here that you are of a unique perception & viewpoint that is somewhat more extreme then the status quo. It is evident that the continuity between several points you've expressed is based on the fact that you are not posturing or striving to emulate some chosen ideal... you are just responding to your surroundings with an honesty to your natural mindset, albeit with a minimum of restraint.
Actually I think the fact that you mention being offended, or not "digging" or "agreeing" or not wanting to "see" what you've determined (for yourself) to be lewd, indecent, uncomfortable, inappropriate, uncalled for etc. etc... well I think that is your own way of subjecting the community around you with your orientation & somewhat of an overt public display of claiming your right to live the way you want while running the risk that you may be fostering it on others who do not care for your lifestyle.
quote: ...individuals who are sincere in what they believe....they don't "share their faith" for selfish reasons...
I think this is equally true on both sides of this issue... yet, people will have varying degrees of discomfort being exposed to that "sharing"... regardless of reasons
quote:my closest friends is a gay guy... That said I really enjoy his friendship...but draw the line when gets in the mood to act that "certain way
hmm... "act"? ...could it be that what is to you an "act" is for him just "to be?"
quote:...why the need to walk down the street chanting and flaunting what is admittedly a alternative (read Deviant from normalcy) Lifestyle?
...I ask again WHY is there such an urge for flagrant public displays?
not only do I think all this BUGS you just a little TOO MUCH... but if (on the off chance)you don't see the parallel I'm trying to present yet... "WHY is there such an urge for flagrant public displays" of being so bugged by it?
posted June 29, 2005 12:35 AM
For years, I've flat-out refused to hang my clothes in a closet. Ever since the expression "coming out of the closet" became synonomous with another aspect of "gay culture". Wives shouldn't really expect a "straight" husband to build them one of those "walk-in closets" either. You run the risk of your wife entering into one, and coming out preferring the company of other women.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted June 29, 2005 12:50 AM
Doug...you are saying what you think...and that's valid. But the irony, your point is INvalidated by it's topic...that what someone else thinks is NOT valid.
Do you always come in just to express your opinions on somebody's opinion?
posted June 29, 2005 01:03 AM
No matter where you happen to stand on this dialog, it's very refreshing that (so far) there's no bashing. As long as we can keep it that way, this continues to be enlightening. Jean-Claude, if you don't mind my asking, do you present yourself as outwardly gay in your business dealings, or neutral, or even straight? Either way, what problems do you encounter? Also, thanks for "coming out" on this forum - my guess is that it's not usually easy.
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted June 29, 2005 01:06 AM
what everyone thinks IS valid
...everyone repeating over & over what they think doesn't make it more valid... but it could make it more annoying!
I am not annoyed by your opinions... but I honestly think the chance of someone being offended by your outspoken beliefs is equal to the chance of someone being offended by Jean-Claude holding hands with a partner in public.
posted June 29, 2005 07:16 AM
Jean-Claude, I give you a lot of credit. It took true courage for you to be so open in what can be a pack of wild hyenas. Thank you for the interesting and poignant glimpse into your world.
Jon, you are SO right.
And Doug...I can FINALLY quote you:
quote:what everyone thinks IS valid
It takes all kinds of people to make the world go round. Like I said earlier, I don't care either way. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all identical?
If I want to paint a rainbow, I will. It was a big theme in my early art back in the 70s. Love....Jill PS I never knew about the Loony Tune thing for women! hahahhaa I was wondering why those clothes are so popular.
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted June 29, 2005 08:42 AM
Jon, I wanted to say, quietly, I hope, that the reason christians share their beliefs with others is because Jesus told us to. He said not to hide our light under a basket. But we are to do it wisely, & to show it in our lives. I do not mean to shove my beliefs down anyone's throats at all! But see, when He lives inside of you so strongly, you simply cannot be quiet about it. You see what a difference He has made in your life, & you want to share it with others, so they too can be as blessed as you are.
One of the fruits of knowing the Lord is LOVE. When you meet other christians that do not exhibit this love for others, many times they haven't grown enough in Him. Fruit has to be GROWN, & sometimes that takes time. We are still human, & make mistakes, but the biggest thing we are to learn is to love others.
I am sorry everyone, if I have offended any of you for adding this to the post, but I read a lot of posts that attack each other, & we do not understand each other. I hope this will help the non-christians understand where we are coming from, ok?
And thank you, John-Claude for sharing your point of view with us. It would be so wonderful if we could all share our points of view like that & not get hostile with each other!
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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NOW P-A-L-E-A-S-E don't twist this into me comparing the two (nazism and homosexuality)...because I'm not....
I simply want to respectfully disagree with this notion.
Hitler had his personal ideas....and I don't believe most people in considering his ideals would say tolerance of an individuals thoughts and lifestyles should be universally respected and meritorious of public acceptance.
In an ordered society, rules must be instituted for the good of all. Rules have been installed (some good/some in retrospect bad) because history has borne out that man's motivations for his actions in an individual sense cannot be trusted.
I don't view this as a pessimistic outlook. I view it as realistic...and "it is what it is." History bears out man's reckless behavior...
The idea there should be unbridled acceptance of everyone's personal lifestyles is ludicrous. Even keeping religion out of it; there are natural laws and moral laws that render the "whatever floats your boat" mentality unacceptable for societies to flourish successfully.
This is why man has developed laws and defined acceptable/unacceptable behaviors; to restrain those that might consider personal freedom more important than the welfare of society at large.
Somehow, aids has become Washington's fault...when in reality, it is propogated through behavior and ultimately the refusal to consider the implications and consequences of imposing one's personal desires upon another - without regard as to how that might encroach on their basic right to life. Not that the other party wasn't a willing accomplice - but had the other party known the deadly payload he was to receive he probably would have felt it prudent to rethink his philosophy.
Altering behavior can directly stop the cycle of aids. Should we feel compassion for those afflicted? But of course. No rational person delights in seeing their fellow man suffer.
If nothing else...simple laws of nature dictate that what everyone thinks is NOT always valid.
Individuality is a quality to be desired. But a life without personal restraint and limits is chaos.
*Man imposes law and rules of conduct upon himself in an attempt to improve life and create consistant order.
*General order seems to take hold.
*Man becomes relaxed, and begins to contemplate the necessity for such laws. A lust for personal gratification begins to leach back into his mindset.
*Man incrementally dismantles the boundaries which put his life in order.
*Reliability of societal order begins to weaken. Fissure's and cracks begin to compromise the foundation of society.
*Personal desire becomes paramount over what's best for society as a whole. Laws are removed in favor of satisfying the growing clamor for personal gratification. The glue that held society together through personal restraint, mans, natural, and moral law is dissolved.
*Individuals have decided they can forage about on their own, make their own laws based upon "what feels right" to them...and hold in contempt any attempt at reigning in their personal desires by those that long for consistency, and an ordered society.
*Society falls.
*Chaos and strife reign in man's world.
_________________________________________________
You may find this philosophical expose in-valid.....but it has been brought to you as a public service announcement from Potterville. I'll go corral the chickens now.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted June 29, 2005 09:44 AM
Jean-Claude, I applaud your conviction and the courage it took to post here. Thank you.
I personally have no problem with gays. In fact, I think they should be allowed to marry. I don't understand why it's ok for a man & a woman to get married but it's not for 2 men or 2 women. I don't understand how people think they have the right to tell others who they are allowed to fall in love with. To me, it's no different than people being forbidden to marry based on social class, race or religion. Hey, why not pass a law banning blonds from marrying brunettes?
Jon Aston, I find myself applauding your posts way too often anymore.
I don't care what anyone's sexual preference, religions views or favorite food is (CHEESE!) and I try not to discriminate against anyone because of them, as long as they don't try to shove it down my throat. When people do that, I generally do turn away from them as I find that behavior rude and extremely disrespectful.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I applaud your conviction and the courage it took to post here. Thank you.
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