posted
Sharon, I haven't looked at the Summa so I can't comment on it. My edge has paid for the material use, learning curve and initial investment a few times over in the past 9 months. I would not hesitate to buy an FX in a heartbeat. In fact, I thought about it a couple months ago but just couldn't bring myself to having a payment. The width of the edge hasn't affected me once. In the last 9 months, I can remember tiling exactly 1 job.
I have owned 2 Rolands. My Roland cutter is now a 2 yr old doorstop with nothing but runaround from Roland when I try to contact tech support. I loved this machine and really wish I could get an answer from someone as to wtf is wrong with it. My Roland printer/cutter...the cut registration was off over 1/2" in 16" and I'm STILL waiting for answers to my questions/problems to tech support from July 2003. The day it left my shop is one of the happiest days of my life. I won't even touch the enormous costs of foils for it. My local supplier rep stopped in and tried to give me info on one of their new printers, told him to take it with him or go ahead & throw it into my garbage can. He tells me that Roland knows they screwed up on the PCs and was throwing them into the dumpster when getting them as trade-ins. Knowing you made a mistake and actually owning up to it are 2 totally different things in my opinion. After all this, would I give them $20k? Not on my life.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I can't imagine not tiling jobs often in an Edge. I have had mine over 3 years and tiling is at least 50% of the work. You do find yourself trying to force a design into a 11.8" height on those that are close to that size. We do u/v clear all work too.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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This is an extremely informative thread as well as a wonderful example of how people work together to help one another. We all have our opinions and it shows,,,,,I'm no different.
I would like to add my two cents about Summa's Customer Service with a small story.
Several years ago we planned on getting a Summa Durachrome. Along with that we needed a new cutter, so the plans were to get a Durasign also. Blah, Blah, the cash wasn't available, so we did opt to get the Durasign as we absolutely needed the cutter. The cutter was fantastic till we started having a bit of a problem with it.
Our warranty period had just expired by a couple of months, and to make a long story short, Summa offered us a very good $$$ option for repair. VERY FAIR! Okay, we also decided to get a DC3 Plus recently which we now have. Well, between Jim Dogget and Drew Groshong, they included in our deal to take back the durasign and supply us with a new S series cutter with Tang. Head. This one is only a 30" machine as compared to the Durasign,,,but this is fine now considering that the DC3 Plus cuts it's own material. They have saved us $$ and aggravation here.
Of course we did pay a bundle for the Durasign as well as the DC3 plus......but Summa didn't have to do this. In fact it was their idea, and I'm not kidding!
Nobody seems to have a "do it all perfectly" machine,,,,and by all means we all put our pants on one leg at a time, but I must say that I've never been as satisfied with any company through a testy time as I have with Summa. A buddy signmaker of mine just got a DC3 plus also, and between the two of us, we've flooded tech support with many, many questions, and not once did they make me feel that I wasn't important.
So, this is my view on Summa's stance on the customer. Your's may vary.
It's refreshing once in a while speaking of the good,,,,rather than harping on the bad.
By the way,,,,,,I'm very happy with the DC3 Plus.
Best wishes to all and thanks for reading! -Mark
[ May 22, 2005, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Mark Kelcinski ]
-------------------- Mark Kelcinski Dynamic Designs 3270 Main St. Mexico, NY 13114 mail@dynamicd.biz Posts: 5 | From: Mexico, New York | Registered: May 2002
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I have a roland versacamm and find it very interesting that your salesperson stated that you need an extra warranty package. My salesman never even mentioned that to me. It is up to the salesman to train you on proper maintainance, and this thing runs like a tank. The ink doesn't dry in the printhead, and the ease of printing and image quality is unbelievable. I'm not trying to tell you that you need one of these machines, just that I believe your salesman was probably making a much bigger chunk of change on the machine he was pushing you to buy.
Good luck with your choice...it is a hard decision to make. I had my options narrowed down to the Summa and the versacamm, but my market is different than yours, and I love what this machine does for me.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have owned both the Roland and the Gerber. I can tell you from personal experience don't waste your money with the Roland.
You've received a lot of good advice. I'd like to clarify a few thing for you that I think may have been overlooked.
When looking to purchase a digital printer, you need to determine first what kind work you'll be selling. There are primarily two different types of machines - inkjet and thermal resin.
Inkjet printers use different types of inks for different situations. And for outdoor use, they must be laminated in some way either with a compatible liquid laminate or a vinyl overlaminate. Most of the documentation that I have shows that lamination is required in order for the print to last up to three years outdoors. Either way, laminating is going to require additional equipment/consumables and needs to be included in your overall costs.
Thermal printers have a couple different "foils" available for different types of work, but the majority of the work will be done with one specific "resin" foil. Thermally printed images do not normally require laminating in order to get roughly three years outdoors use. The only time some sort of laminating or additional clear coating is necessary is when the customer expects a longer outdoor life or when the printed image is going to be subjected to physical or chemical abuse.
Here are some things you will need to consider....
1) Cost of consumables. Put pencil to paper and determine what the ink/resin is going to cost you to produce a specific job.
2) Maintenance costs. When it comes to any electronic piece of equipment its not a matter of "if" something fails, but "when". And when it does, is the equipment designed in such a way that you can service it yourself with minimal aid or will you need to plan on re crating the machine and shipping it off; or, will you need to plan on shelling several hundred dollars to pay for a technician to be flown in?
3) Technical support. What kind of service can you expect from the manufacturer/distributor? Every company has a different structure. When I had my Roland, I had to call the manufacturer, leave a message and hope I get a return call within the next day or so. (The quality of service may have changed since I got rid of my PNC) With my Gerber Edge, my distributor has its own Gerber trained technical department. If there is anything they can't solve, they contact Gerber for me and I usually get a call from Gerber within an hour. I've not had any personal experience with Summa's technical service, but everything I've heard has always been positive.
4) Electrical service Something else you need to ask is does the printer require 110 or 220, single phase or three phase. I made the mistake a few years ago when I purchased an M&R Renegade clamshell press. I didn't know enough to ask about what the electrical requirements were nor did the salesman ask. I ended up shelling out an additional $3000 to have 3-phase brought into my building, an expense I hadn't planned for.
5) Footprint How much space will be necessary for the printer (and cutter) and possibly a laminator.
6) Support. Does the distributor offer a "loaner" if you have to send your machine in for servicing? I do quite a bit of work with my Gerber Edge and the time comes when I need to send it in to have the printhead replaced (something all printers will require sooner or later). As long as I purchase "X" amount of goods from my distributor, he will loan me an Edge while Gerber has my machine for servicing. This way I have very little or no down time.
7) Colors. How many available number of spot colors does the manufacturer offer? Are you able to overprint one color on top of another to create a completely new color? Are there third-party manufacturers offering additional colors?
8) Software Does the printer require special software? Can you run the equipment with your existing software or with the addition of a "plug-in"? What features are available with that software? What are its limitations? Which will provide the best "ease of use"?
9) Print quality. How good does the print look? Something I strongly suggest is to create two different files - one spot color file (vector) and one full-color file (CMYK raster image) - and send them to the different manufacturer/distributors so they can send a sample back to you for comparison.
When looking at the wide-format thermal printers, something you need to look at is how well the image is "stitched". Let me explain what I mean about stitching. The printheads on the Roland PNC, Summa DC3 and Gerber Maxx range any where from about 1/2" up to 4" wide. The printhead must travel back and forth across the vinyl to lay down the pigmented foil resin. This is referred to as a "pass". The printhead must precisely lay down each pass so that the pigmented resin does not overlap the previous pass or leave a gap between each pass. If there is an overlap, there will be a dark line where the overlap occurred. If there is a gap, then there will be a white line. Most of these printers do a decent job of hiding any stitching problems when printing a photo image, but the stitching problems become most obvious when printing solid spot colors. Poor stitching will result in poor image quality and customer dissatisfaction.
The Gerber Edge is the only one with a wider printhead (11.8") and doesn't have any "stitching" issues.
10) Right tool for the job. Being able to print on wider substrates sounds fine until you have to load a 50yd. roll of 36" wide media into the machine. I cut quite a bit of 48" wide vinyl on my Gerber Odyssey and I can tell you that the 50yd. rolls are not light. Loading and unloading can be a pain in the butt after a while, especially if you only need to cut a few letters for a job.
About 98% of the shortrun work I do requiring any printing can be handled by my Gerber Edge without any need for paneling. This would include magnetic signs, bumperstickers, license plates and small decals. I get very few calls for anything larger. When I do, I have to make the decision whether or not paneling the printed image is going to be acceptable or not. If not, I usually farm the print out to someone like Gregory, Inc.
11) Flexibility. Which machine can print on the widest range of substrates? Can you print on something other than vinyl?
What it all boils down to is which printer is going to make the most money for you with the least amount of effort. The only one who can tell you that is you and your market.
posted
Everyone seems to be forgetting one thing here, "I am a Mac based one-woman shop. I have four Macs. "
Jim, I'm not aware of Mac software for the Summa, please correct me if I'm wrong on that point. In fact, if you do have it please send me some information!
Sharon, I'd ask about Macintosh software for any of these options first while your browsing at the show unless your looking forward to adding a pc to your workflow. Getting back to the Edge. Even Gerber doesn't have Mac software for the Edge FX. (Is anyone listening there?) MacImprint will drive the Edge 2 though, and quite well.
I feel I have to address Todd's reposting my "test". It is accurate but I feel that it is important to restate that it was mounted on the roof. I've been running my Edge since 99 now and have never had to reprint a faded job. I do run a UV thermal clearcoat on all vehical applications now instead of the liquid Frog Juice.
Personally, I would think twice about the Roland if they GAVE it to you. There are a couple of nearby sign shops that sub Edge work out to me. They both tried the Roland, one actually tried three of them and right now neither have one. From past posts here and other places I'd guess that about 4% of these printers actually worked and lasted as they should. For 4K I'd run as fast as I could the other direction.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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Yes, FlexiSIGN supports EDGE/2 (I'm guessing the new EDGE too), ColorCAMM (all levels) and Summa DC3 (all levels). You need Flexi's top-level product, with color printing support. And one of the the newer revs ... 6 or 7, I believe.
What some of our users do, who either have Mac design stations or work with ad agencies that tend to be Mac-centric, is attach the Summa DC3 to a PC RIP station. ColorControl, which is the RIP that we include with the Summa DC3, is a PostScript 3 compatible RIP. EPS, PS, AI or PDF files from Macs, including OSX, can be ripped in ColorControl no problemo. Also, ColorControl is blazing fast, even on an entry-level PC. So if buying a dedicated RIP station, a $500 cheapy PC is AOK.
If running ColorControl exclusively in a PC environment, we advise a computer with some muscle, since CorelDRAW, Photoshop and most other graphics programs benefit from lots of RAM and HD space.
Best Regards,
Jim
-------------------- Jim Doggett General Manager, USA Yellotools, Ltd www.yellotools.com Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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I love my DC3. . . .never had a thermal print come back. Summa tech is the BEST!
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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One observation someone made here a year or two back is that no one ever traded their Edge in for a Roland Color Camm but there are lots of ex Roland owners with an Edge. Some have posted on this thread.
Another thing I have noticed is that the Summa and Edge owners swear by their machines whereas the Color Camm owners are usually swearing at them. There is a reason.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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A client stopped by last month & I snapped this pic of a spare tire graphic I did for him 3-1/2 years ago. It is seamed & had no clearcoat. Of course it looked better then, but he is still happy with it.
posted
Heck, given all the added input since I last looked, I'm gonna stop being shy and post away.
Doug: Thanks... I can see where having independent printer/cutter is important in a busy shop. But I hope I'm never that busy. As a former exhibit house owner and traveling graphics producer at major electronic conventions, I baled before full burnout and now work without employees. Except for the bookkeeping, it's a dream come true. Good examples on the tiles. I've tiled 14 foot tall graphics from my 24" cutter but I was curious about the gradient or photo work. Looks to not be a big problem. Ha... didn't charge enough you say? I get that! I've been a sucker for the gratification in creating "dumpster art" at Comdex and other shows and never charging enough... but still much more than I could dream of in my home town. Gotta love exhibit work. An exhibitor would pay $400 cash the night before the show and be grateful for something a local yokel would hesitate to give $40 for. Last minute product changes in Las Vegas were the emergencies we lived for... and stayed up all night to solve. I feel too old for that anymore, though! I just saw your 3 1/2 year old non clear-coated spare tire graphic, too! Mahalo.
Todd: Interesting about the Frog Juice. I asked my local shop owner and salesman if I could use Frog Juice on top of the thermal resin prints (given his pro laminate position) and he said NO don't use Frog Juice... as it yellows and cracks in the sun. Well, maybe eventually so... but your link is an interesting testimony in favor of it. *If* I wanted the added protection to a thermal resin, such as Summa, could I print and cut, then spray a light coating of FJ and then weed? Or would the juice seal up the cut joints... I'm thinking spraying after the weeding would give me a sticky backing. Sorry if it's a lame question. Obviously, if I'm applying to a sign then I can spray the entire face, but I'm thinking of when I'm shipping off decals. Do you spray Frog Juice on vehicles? Apologize in advance if I'm asking lame questions that everybody should know...
Ron: Good advice for me to outsource the same job. I did send a file to Summa (more on that later). Intend to send it to the local VersaCamm/Mutoh guy, too. But... I don't want to wait 5 years (or even one) to see if it holds up ... but your advice re: set up questions is an excellent start to familiarization. You write: "No one machine exists that will do everything perfectly for you." I'm beginning to see that... but of course, I want the latest and greatest! Too many times, I've upgraded to a new computer only to find the next best system come out a month later. Haven't we all. I have noticed the inkjet prints are much nicer up close. But for me the durability and ease of steps is proving to be above that. I suppose I'm a "longevity and good quality" shop. I want to do highly customized work that will look good and hold up well. I'd gladly choose "high quality" but settle for "good" if it means they will last longer and look "good enough." I could afford a long learning curve if I worked with or close to someone who already had the knowledge. But I no longer have that luxury. I'm all alone (except for you guys and gals!).
Jim: That's what you get for ruining our Kings' basketball playoffs. Not that I care too much. I'm a fan for sentimental reasons (they were my Mom's team). Thanks for explaining the 3 to 5 year differences. Also, Jim... why drag knife and not tangental (sp)?
YES, the Roland dealer said that I'd have to remove the Summa print, laminate and then put it back in for cutting. He was very clear in stating that the California environment would be too much for the print otherwise and I'd be putting my business at risk to not laminate. I wish I had known about ScratchGuard at that time. He was working to instill fear into another leaning-Summa person who happened to be there at the same time as me. Can't blame him if he's earning his living selling Rolands and others... but it pays to self-educate.
I'm going to be asked this by a non-business customer. What will the vinyl do to a truck or trailer when they are wanting to have it removed? Sun fade on the rest of the vehicle... anything else?
Darn, I was hoping the Summa (if I bought it) could also serve as an occasional enhancement to my t-shirt business, i.e. printing transfers for a dark colored shirt or vinyl banner material that does not need to involve weeding and application. HOWEVER, since you are as you say geared for the sign industry, then why NOT a vinyl banner material?
So Summa can print on a clear decal material and be installed on the inside of a window if desired. You can squeegee firm enough to remove bubbles without hurting the print?
Yes, I'd love to see the domed image samples! Thank you. Could open up a whole new clientele for me. If you already wrote my address down, check the zip code. I had it typed in wrong before. Got a new PO Box and forgot it had a new zip, too. It's correct now. BTW, *if* I buy Summa... I should tell you that Drew briefly answered my original investigative telephone call after finally learning about Summa via google... if there is a commission consideration (but please don't stop answering!). And I want you to know how hard it was to find Summa online. I always found Rolands but wanted there to be more to choose from and it was quite a few various keywords before I found the Summa website in Belgium. I didn't know I was looking for thermal resin. Just a dummy wanting to print on vinyl... so think about that when figuring the best keywords.
Leads me to another question. I asked Drew for a sample off of one of my admittedly not for primetime photo file samples. I wanted to have something to guage. I was not dissatisfied with the photo print he sent me, given the small size of my file and the large size that Drew printed. It is also comparable to what a customer might provide to me so it was all good! But in the print of my file, the dark areas had white dots whereas the photo print sample that Summa sent out as a sample was all opaque in the black areas. What would be required for me to get that nice opacity. I'll understand if I'm asking too many Summa-support questions. No problem.
Ever have any sales? Or package deals, i.e. starter package?
Sonny: I'm glad this topic is helping you, too! You know, I'm VERY pleased. I once worked in the darkroom for a silkscreen sign shop back in the pre-digital days and the owner was so very afraid of his competition learning how he did things that we had to sign a "not talk about work" clause, even with our spouses! And spouses were not allowed beyond the front lobby. That and some other incidences gave me the distinct impression that the worry of competition was fierce. Not saying I don't understand that... but I'm surprised and grateful for all the input.... or maybe the internet just removes the feeling of sharing with your immediate competitor, given all the geographic space between us.
Bill and Curtis: I like the idea of popping the colors and extending the outdoor-ability in any convenient way possible. Thanks.
Janet: So good to hear from another DC3 Plus user. I so wanted to check out your website but none of the images load for me... I viewed the website source and it has all the slashes which I normally have facing forward: / are instead facing backwards: \. Has it been a problem for anyone else? Thanks for the interesting comment on spot colors vs. process colors.
Kissymatina: I checked out your website as well. We would have a lot in common. I print all my shirts on Alps (love them! Can keep the price much lower than sublimation and print on 100% cotton no problem, with real dark blacks)... however one day in the near future Alps will stop refurbing their printers. I'm getting off topic, but sublimation printers are of deep interest to me, too, given that we are building our house now and I want to decorate some tiles and add that to the business. I'm assuming that's what you use (sublimation), but maybe not. I'm looking at Epson 1280 and 4000... and who knows what else... another topic, perhaps for another board. Back to Roland... I am reminded of the first time I invested in a plotter/cutter. It was a big stout German made thing, can't remember the name, but the manual had been translated and was funny/difficult to follow at times. At the time I had checked into Rolands... much less $$$ but they could not cut well at that time IMO... I recall the curved letters were jagged and my friend who had bought one seemed to indeed cuss at it. However that was the very beginnings of plotter/cutters to be fair. But I was afraid of the economical solution back then. My German monster worked very well... and I felt bad for having to tell the loyal artist who would cut out my logos that his services were no longer needed. Hey, I noticed there was a cut off of printed vinyl in my Roland-seller's shop that showed the cut had missed the image by about 3/4". I asked him about it and he didn't answer me... but may have been cursing himself for not getting it out of site. Wonder now if he's having the same trouble you are. Appreciate your frankness. I think, though, that maybe you don't do the larger vehicle logos to tile that little? It just occurred to me... do you print your t-shirts, etc. with the Edge and not sublimation? In that regard, if so, then the Edge is more flexible... banners, etc? I get a lot of requests for outdoor show banners on a relatively small size scale...30" x 96" on average, logo and text.
David Wright: My first vinyl cutter was a 15" machine and I remember the joy of finally getting a 20" and then the 24" was truly wonderful. I often wonder how difficult it would be to weed and apply much larger? I have dexterity, but work in a tight space in relation to most of you. Not a warehouse by any means. I think most of my stuff will be small... but the Summa would have me tiling rarely if ever. I need to think the Edge would feel a little small in the long run.
Mark K: Hello. And thank you for sharing your experience with the machine I seem most interested in at this time. That was an amazing testimony. If I get the Summa, I'll be sure and say I want what Mark K. had in support! LOL. Glad it worked out. There are indeed some very happy Roland users, but across the board, the tech support is a night/day difference. If it's not built into the price, it won't be there. I was impressed to hear from Jim that Summa's lifelong support goes with the machine, too. This reminds me... another question for Jim...
Jim: As a Mac user, I have found that some companies who are highly rated for their support do not have many or any Mac experience in their support crew and can leave me still finding my own way. While Macs are wonderful for finding one's own way... might I encounter that with Summa? And to your knowledge would there be any PC features with Summa that are not available with Mac? And if it's all up to my Flexi software, does your support still offer navigational suggestions or would I be sent to Flexi?
Suelynn: Thanks for your Versacamm testimony. This salesman mentioned the warranty on multiple occasions and framed it as though he were being "honest" with me and not wanting to hide from me the fact that it was a very important component of the purchase that he would not want me to overlook. I've come to a strong impression after listening here what the motivation may have been. They do seem to offer a good training session... as I saw purchasers getting inhouse set up training. But now I don't want to buy from him.
Glenn T: VERY helpful and informative post... thank you! Because much of my sales will be for individuals who are not buying them for business, I think they will be a pickier lot and asking me more pointed questions about how the product affects their vehicle and how long it lasts... more so than a business that replaces its leased vans periodically. However, I'm thinking now that I'll rely on my existing customer base to get started and as I get more experienced and confident start tipping the scales toward the bigger commercial jobs. In time I could become a true Letterhead!
I'm printing out your list of considerations... thank you again. I'm sure many other newcomers to this field appreciate it as well. Yes, you've been a big help... Right now, I'm leaning toward Summa but you and Kissy have definitely kept the Gerber option alive.
Bill M: Thanks for bringing up the Mac issue. I am being told that by having Flexi Pro 7.5, that it should work with most things... but I don't take that for granted and it's one of my issues with inquiring about the PC600... nobody ever got back to me and confirmed it, just said "should work" over and over...and it is one of my first questions to confirm (has to be!). I thought I read on the Gerber website that it had Mac cabling so that gave me the impression it was Mac friendly. Someone else mentioned MacImprint... good to not assume it will work on ALL of the Edges. Thank you. When you say you runa UV thermal clearcoat... I'm guessing it's a ribbon ink similar to what Summa offers?
John A: Thanks... I'm sold on Summa support!
David H:Thanks for sharing your observations. The sly little expression on your face hints at a little enjoyment there LOL.
Okay, I got through all the replies... now to see if a post this large can be sent! Whew! Feels like a record post. And I take it as a new visitor I don't have the option for posting my picture like some of y'all... so I'll do it this way!
Hello and thanks again!
-------------------- Sharon O'Brien-Lykins HorseDesigns.Com PO Box 1898 Penn Valley CA 95946 horsedesigns@gmail.com Posts: 43 | From: Penn Valley, California | Registered: May 2005
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I have sprayed Frog Juice on Gerber Edge 2 prints after they were cut and they weeded fine. You don't need to put an super-heavy coat on....
An outdoor durable inkjet printer will blow away the Edge in resolution, giving you a truly photographic, no-dot image....
However...the Edge can do things on materials that a Versacamm could never do...and photographic printing looks pretty good on it when you stand back 8 feet....you have to consider a reasonable viewing distance...who sticks their nose right up toa print anyway?
Being in California...or anywhere....you would have to laminate a inkjet print with either a clear vinyl laminate...or a liquid laminate...not only for UV protection but for scratch protection.
Roland claims "scratch resistant, outdoor durable" prints, unlaminated for up to 3 years....but I've been to a demo...and trust me...if you don't laminate it...you can scratch the ink with the brush of a fingernail. You MUST laminate it....but the prints are awesome.
In your case...I'd probably advise you buying an Edge 2 or a Summa DC3....I like the width advantage of the Summa + the print and cut in one machine, + not having to babysit the unit to change cartridges....BUT, as Jim states, the Edge has far more material and consumable choices.
The Edge 2 has been a pretty decent machine although I think the software could use major...MAJOR .... improvement.
I stand by my EXPERIENCE though that unlaminated thermal fades before 3 years....at least with the Edge. 4 color process prints are far worse than spot color prints.
I have several jobs in the field now that are significantly faded within 2 years. I'll have to get a digital shot to prove it I guess....but again, this is mostly with 4-color process, photographic images.
I'll be back to post on the FX...
Bob, do you own a Gerber FX? Research tells me what I need to know without having to "own" one.
I never owned a Yugo, but I'm pretty certain I wouldn't want one. (not saying the Edge is a lemon at all...it's a decent unit...but pointing out the fact that owning doesn't always equate to exclusive knowledge.)
Would you say it's fair to say you wouldn't buy a Yugo based upon things you've read about it?
Gerber has taken a beating on competition from 3rd party foil manufacturers such as Zero Nine and Duracoat....there's no denying that....and I stand by my *theory* that the Gerber chip effectively eliminates much of that competition whilst adding a perceived benefit. Very clever. A setback to the competition.
Edit: The Versacamm can also print on banner material...and t-shirt transfer material....
Summa Support vs Gerber Support? Gerber direct is horrible....Summa is there when you need them...and that is based on personal experience.
I called 6 times to get an update disk on the Omega 2 software...each time they claimed it was "in their hand" and being shipped out the same day".....it took weeks to get it.
Bob, do you own a Gerber FX? Research tells me what I need to know without having to "own" one.
Todd, No I do not own an FX, then again I'm not making misleading assumptions about it either now am I?
God I'd love to know where you "researched" your theory on the 3rd party foil as the reason for building the FX? This is not the first time you have posted that theory, it's the 3rd time. You are entitled to your own opinions but when someone is new to digital and information offered is "theorized " and false in nature, please refrain from misleading people, it's non productive.
This horse is dead, so stop beating it, if you feel a need to address me further on this please do so in an e-mail, and I will do the same.
[ May 23, 2005, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Good morning Bob. Let's keep this public as long as you make the following statements:
quote:Todd, No I do not own an FX, then again I'm not making misleading assumptions about it either now am I?
quote:when someone is new to digital and information offered is "theorized " and false in nature, please refrain from misleading people, it's non productive.
We'll do the email thing when you leave out the "liar" innuendos and simply post: "Todd, let's discuss this via email."
1.) I think I have spent considerable time talking about the very good points of the Gerber equipment - - which there are many. 2.) If you look at the focus of the improvements and read between the lines, you can see why one could easily theorize my statements about the foils.....major focus seems to be foil related.
Doug, an experienced Edge supporter, listed these improvements for the Edge FX:
Smart GerberGauge™ with RFID technology for workflow improvement
Refillable design to reduce cost of output
Caddy sized to accommodate longer rolls - 91m lengths in addition to 15m and 45 m rolls
Redesigned for better foil-to-foil registration
Enables rapid foil loading/unloading
Seems to be predominantly *foil* related to me....and one person posted he saw/did a demo and noticed no improvement in the foil-to-foil registration in his opinion.
So, It is my opinion that re-capturing market share of foils from less expensive competitors had to be a consideration...and frankly, from a business standpoint, you cannot blame them.
I continue to believe the Gerber Edge is an awesome piece of equipment and performs it's task quite well.
Don't forget about the lawsuits over the original hole punch patterns for Gerber vinyl.....the sprocket pattern on the edge and Gerber equipment has a distinct alignment pattern....and when vinyl converters began *punching* this pattern...all hell broke loose.
You notice Avery and others getting around the pattern by introducing a *long slot* to fit around the 3 closely spaced sprocket pins rather than having 3 separately punched holes to match Gerbers pattern perfectly.
You can't blame Gerber from wanting to protect it's consumable lines....
You cannot discount the realities and creativeness of marketing decisions either.
I would highly recommend the Gerber Edge as a signmaking money-maker, as I would many other pieces of equipment.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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In re: the Mac, I have an iPod. Does that count :-) Just kidding.
Our support department has mostly PCs, but also Macs. Our support manager, Greg Wentz, is a recovering PC guy ... he got a pretty fancy Mac laptop and loves it.
I'm a dyed in the wool PC guy, having started on them early on. So, I'm not a good judge of how knowledegeable our support is with Mac issues. But my sense is they're pretty good.
The Mac programs we have installed for support purposes are FlexiSIGN, Photoshop, Illustrator, FreeHand, Quark and InDesign. Also, we're the exclusive US distributors of MacSign, and were previously the exclusive distributors of MagiSign. Both are Mac vinyl cutting programs that work with Illustrator, which was one of the main reasons we began empahasizing Mac support.
My sense is that you'll be pleased with our level of Mac knowledge.
Happy Monday,
Jim
-------------------- Jim Doggett General Manager, USA Yellotools, Ltd www.yellotools.com Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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You asked: Jim... why drag knife and not tangental (sp)?
Note sure; speed perhaps. Also, folks won't be cutting sandblast resist with a Summa DC3 Plus. For what goes into the printer, our D Series cutting is more than adequate. Probably a cost consideration as well.
You said: YES, the Roland dealer said that I'd have to remove the Summa print, laminate and then put it back in for cutting. He was very clear in stating that the California environment would be too much for the print otherwise and I'd be putting my business at risk to not laminate. I wish I had known about ScratchGuard at that time. He was working to instill fear into another leaning-Summa person who happened to be there at the same time as me. Can't blame him if he's earning his living selling Rolands and others... but it pays to self-educate.
Agreed. But no worries. The Roland guy has to make a living too.
You asked: I'm going to be asked this by a non-business customer. What will the vinyl do to a truck or trailer when they are wanting to have it removed? Sun fade on the rest of the vehicle... anything else?
Hmmm. This might be a question best answered by a real sign-maker. I'm not one (don't even play one on TV). Thoughts anyone?
You lamented: Darn, I was hoping the Summa (if I bought it) could also serve as an occasional enhancement to my t-shirt business, i.e. printing transfers for a dark colored shirt or vinyl banner material that does not need to involve weeding and application. HOWEVER, since you are as you say geared for the sign industry, then why NOT a vinyl banner material?
Sorry about the T-Shirt thing. Also, thermal resin doesn't transfer well onto scrim surfaces. Ergo, no banner. Sorry again.
You asked: So Summa can print on a clear decal material and be installed on the inside of a window if desired. You can squeegee firm enough to remove bubbles without hurting the print?
Yes. We're not inkjet. We fuse resin (plastic) to the face of the vinyl. Inkjet either has an ink-receptive coating (akin to a thin layer of gel) or it uses solvent to eat into the face of the vinyl. Both create a surface on the vinyl that's unstable. Thermal resin transfer doesn't do that. Squeegee away, the instant it comes of the printer.
You said: Yes, I'd love to see the domed image samples! Thank you. Could open up a whole new clientele for me. If you already wrote my address down, check the zip code. I had it typed in wrong before. Got a new PO Box and forgot it had a new zip, too. It's correct now. BTW, *if* I buy Summa... I should tell you that Drew briefly answered my original investigative telephone call after finally learning about Summa via google... if there is a commission consideration (but please don't stop answering!). And I want you to know how hard it was to find Summa online. I always found Rolands but wanted there to be more to choose from and it was quite a few various keywords before I found the Summa website in Belgium. I didn't know I was looking for thermal resin. Just a dummy wanting to print on vinyl... so think about that when figuring the best keywords.
Domed sample on the way! (I'll guess Drew has your address). BTW, Drew earns a commission on everything we sell (he's VP of sales). I'm always out here doing his work for him :-)
We are hard to find on the Web unless you type in the name of our product, or company. Vinyl cutting, and outdoor durable printing tend to be good search terms for us as well. But you're right; I need to put more emphasis on paying for search engine ranking ... but Barb keeps snapping up all my online budget for the dang Letterville banner ;-) Kidding! Happy to do it.
You asked: Leads me to another question. I asked Drew for a sample off of one of my admittedly not for primetime photo file samples. I wanted to have something to guage. I was not dissatisfied with the photo print he sent me, given the small size of my file and the large size that Drew printed. It is also comparable to what a customer might provide to me so it was all good! But in the print of my file, the dark areas had white dots whereas the photo print sample that Summa sent out as a sample was all opaque in the black areas. What would be required for me to get that nice opacity. I'll understand if I'm asking too many Summa-support questions. No problem.
Hmmm. Not sure. I'll have to check with Drew to see if he still has your file, and ask what settings he used. More later, probably by phone or email.
You asked: Ever have any sales? Or package deals, i.e. starter package?
Yes and Yes! A postcard will mail within a few days offering triple starter supplies (3 rolls of high perf 3M; 3 sets of CMYK ribbon). It'll print a minimum of 1107 square feet.
Thanks again, Jim
[ May 23, 2005, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Jim Doggett ]
-------------------- Jim Doggett General Manager, USA Yellotools, Ltd www.yellotools.com Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: you can scratch the ink with the brush of a fingernail.
I dont know where you saw the print. OR, what grade of print.
But, It certainly takes more than a "brush of a fingernail" to scratch my prints. In fact, if all it took was a "brush" of a fingernail then the prints I mount by hand using a squeegee would all be ruined with the first pass.
It takes more like a gouge to scratch the prints. I've personally washed an outdoor print under running water and a brush just to see what it would take to damage it. There was no damage.
I just finished a hemmed and grommeted 4x20 unlaminated banner face down on the table. If all it took was a "brush of a finger nail" then this high dollar banner would be ruined. I have absolutely no fear of scratches with all the moving around.
Just one more point. I own two printers thus live first hand personal experience. I was told by a few that it was a mistake to get them and there was these weeknesses blah blah.. Well, I can say that most of what was said was true only if the machines are mistreated, misused, or misapplied.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Sharon, I don't do much shirts & hats but when I do, I use the edge. I printed some with the gold medal foil for myself to test. After a dozen or so washings (without turning inside-out as most processes recommend) the gold still looks as killer as the day I pressed it.
On some edge prints, I clear with one-shot UV. I chose to go that route after reading about both it & frog juice. With FJ, everyone either loved or hated it, no middle ground. I have had no issues with 1-shot UV that weren't my own doing (like spraying the clear while on the phone duh!)
Todd, your research is very flawed. I know for a FACT out of the mouth of a third-party foil manufacturer that they are in fact working on foils for the FX. Actually, that was 3 months ago, just a couple weeks after the FX was introduced. Seems kinda stupid to me for Gerber to go through all the development and expense to introduce a new machine to eliminate 3rd party foil competition, when they would only be eliminating that 3rd party for short time frame.
It makes a big difference when it's your money you're spending instead of your buddy's.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Thank you, Jim for taking the time to read through all my posts and provide info and samples. I look forward to the postcard and you may send it to the address listed here.
Thank you everyone else, too... users of Edge, Roland and more... plus those who offered wise counsel and guidelines to consider before buying ANY printer. I have printed info from your posts and taken all your input into consideration.
It has meant a lot to me and others readers, I'm sure, to be able to benefit from your experience.
Sincerely, Sharon
-------------------- Sharon O'Brien-Lykins HorseDesigns.Com PO Box 1898 Penn Valley CA 95946 horsedesigns@gmail.com Posts: 43 | From: Penn Valley, California | Registered: May 2005
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I did some abalone diving years ago out there. I was down a and a dark shadow loomed over head. I wanted to hide under the rocks in fear of the dreaded Great White. It followed me and turned out to be a couple of friendly seals looking for a hand out.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Uh yeah, of course they're live sea lions! Just 'cause I'm from California you think everything is fake?! LOL... well, actually they are fake, dammit. Bronze statues.
I don't go far out into our oceans anymore. Jelly fish scare me too much. Man if I saw a dark shadow coming at me in the water, I'd imagine the worst, too. I love swimming... but just always felt I was trespassing into someone else's world when in the ocean and deserved whatever fate I found there. I'm a landlubber... put me on a horse and I'm in heaven.
-------------------- Sharon O'Brien-Lykins HorseDesigns.Com PO Box 1898 Penn Valley CA 95946 horsedesigns@gmail.com Posts: 43 | From: Penn Valley, California | Registered: May 2005
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posted
FYI: Just spoke to Drew and he said the Summa does indeed print t-shirt transfers which can be applied to dark colored shirts. Good info to know.
Thanks for the One Shot UV recommendation, Kissymatina...
See ya! I'm off and runnin' for the day....
-------------------- Sharon O'Brien-Lykins HorseDesigns.Com PO Box 1898 Penn Valley CA 95946 horsedesigns@gmail.com Posts: 43 | From: Penn Valley, California | Registered: May 2005
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![[Wink]](wink.gif)
... but your advice re: set up questions is an excellent start to familiarization. You write: "No one machine exists that will do everything perfectly for you." I'm beginning to see that... but of course, I want the latest and greatest! Too many times, I've upgraded to a new computer only to find the next best system come out a month later. Haven't we all. I have noticed the inkjet prints are much nicer up close. But for me the durability and ease of steps is proving to be above that. I suppose I'm a "longevity and good quality" shop. I want to do highly customized work that will look good and hold up well. I'd gladly choose "high quality" but settle for "good" if it means they will last longer and look "good enough." I could afford a long learning curve if I worked with or close to someone who already had the knowledge. But I no longer have that luxury. I'm all alone (except for you guys and gals!).
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