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Hi, Just got off the phone with a guy that needs some routed park signs. 1" cedar, largest sign measuring approx. 24"w x 10"h, most signs measuring 16"w x 6"h. No glued blanks, all individual boards. (Large sign would be like 2 boards stacked). Dark brown solid stain, white lettering. Initial order would be 10 or 12, eventually needing 40 or 50.
They used to have a guy that worked for them that hand routed these using a metal template that they purchased. Is anyone familiar with this process? I'm considering doing these on my cnc, but feel it might be overkill for such simple signs, and will price me out of the job. Any suggestions (other than "freehand" routing them)? Thanks!
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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sandblasting would be my choice.....buts thats what we do.
-------------------- Tim & Kathy Cameron www.scarecrowstone.com Unique Signs by Unique Minds Hill City, Kansas zbounce@ruraltel.net Posts: 43 | From: Hill City, Ks USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I'd approach this work by finding a CNC guy for the routing. You could furnish him the type set, as you prefer, along with the boards.
When the panel are routed, the painting is a snap. We use automotive catalysed paint. Using a big vet. hypo full of paint we squeeze the color right into the well of the letters This leaves a perfectly smooth bottom that will last for years.
We have both a CNC and complete sandblasting equipment. I wouldn't consider sandblasting as very good alternative. If for no other reason, the finishing isn't very easy on shallow sandblasting blasts as this would be
Sometimes a CNC is called for and this is one of them.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Tim, Prob is overkill for the CnC. But if you just make a Hold down jig for the Boards on your router you could crank them out Quick.. I would do all my Dark staining First then apply Paint mask. Rout them out then Paint the white. I don't know what your charge back in your neck of the woods but for 12 signs routed out of 2x8 32" (That way I get 3 per board) I would charge between 50 and 75 each depending on how much text. 600 to 900 for half a days work. (But that price also goes up depending on my work load)
I had a contractor friend that dropped off about 200 pieces of 2x8 and 2x10 drops from a job so I use a lot of that for the cheapy signs. ($50 and up and CASH and Carry)
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I'm with William on this- there's good money to be made, no need to pay it to a cnc person unless your workload demands it. Freehand work is not hard, especially in soft woods. The finishing is way more tedious. We've just done four routed signs in the past three weeks- and two were in 7 ft x 14" long logs. There were all in ironbark though, a pretty tough aussie eucalyptus tree that really lasts. Still, at that size in that timber, it was only a bit over an hour's actual routing per sign (at 1/2 inch deep), and good money available for it.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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If you don't want to tie up your router too long and depending on how many repeats there are on copy, you could use the CNC to cut a template and then hand rout using a collar on the router. My suggestion, however, may be more trouble than it's worth.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5101 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I can not begin to tell you how many thousands of dollars I made carving signs like that with the Terrco Sign Carving pantograph for the National Park Service, US Forest Service and government/military bases!!!!!!!! I know that a CNC is the ticket. But, if you don't have one, you have to wait on someone elses schedule and accept their degree of quality and workmanship. This might be the time to check it out. I sold mine on e-bay recently. A $5800.00 value for $2400.00. I think Dave Sherby has one also. http://www.terrco.com/sign.html for more info.
-------------------- John Smith Kings Bay Signs (Retired) Kissimmee, Florida Posts: 817 | From: Central Florida - The Sunshine State | Registered: Jan 2000
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Lets see. If you had an order for ten signs, priced at $50.00 each. How much time would you estimate in the job, at the time of invoicing? And what would you make per hour? Don't forget to reducing out the material costs.
John is right, back in the old days, a panagraph was as good as it got. But now, it a different story.
When I first started my business of routing, we made all our own custom templates from 1/4" masonite. We'd do a single template, with all the letters, scrolls, and panels on a single piece for the whole sign. It was all there. The spacing between lines, placement of dingbats, etc. I loved it then but wouldn't consider it profitable or much fun today.
Both Walter Hartlauer of Hartlauer Bits and Mike Jackson came over several time and helped me get the thing fine tuned. Boy were those days.
A CNC shop, using a 8' table, would gang the job, and it should take about one hour. The going rate is approx $90. per hour with a set up charge of $85 to $100. I agree with your finished cost estimate somewhere between $75.00 and $100.00 fro each panel.That sound reasonable. How much would you do a 6"X24" hand lettered panel for?
I stopped bottom feeding on dimensional signs years ago, and haven't looked back.
We'd be more than happy to do the routing for you with a two day turn around.
There are a lots of guys, like me, ready and willing to work. You might also post an online price request on the forum at www.shopbotools.com
The other option isn't as good. Put on the phones, switch on the router and start crackin.
Joe
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Hi Joe, I did some address signs last year that way, but had trouble finishing them. I tried using a solid stain, applying a paint mask, then routing, then painting the numbers. Had way too many issues (mask not sticking, then sticking too well, then paint bleeding under mask, etc.) I ended up cutting them, then staining, then painting in the numbers. Very time consuming and tedious. Any proven way to do this faster? Thanks! Tim
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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I know what you mean about finishing problems. We've used Gerber Mask 2 on painted panels, prior to routing. For me it's an all too involved technique. Yes it can be done, but there are precise steps for a succesful job, and you better not mess up either. I'm with you. Just mover on with my process.
Do you remember all the hoop-la, years ago, about pre-painting redwood signs prior blasting? That didn't work out very well either. Dang, what a mess.
Here is the way we go about it: Once the panels are routed, stained and dry. Place a 2" strip of masking tape along the bottom of the letter line. Then, either pour, from a small cup, or Hypo the catalized paint into the well of the letters. Thats it.
The making tape keeps the expoxy or catalized paint from dripping on the panel as you move between letters. It's all so easy.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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The way I started doing it is to plot out my lettering on vinyl,centering it inaide a rectagle shape of the sign. Apply the vinyl to the signface and freehand rout it. You can use a sharp, carbide roundnose bit. It goes really fast especially if they're one stroke letters. You can also make your pattern, pounce it or trace it with carbon paper but it's more time consuming. Also, a plunge router works best for this.
But if the letters are more complex, I would consider sandblasting them.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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How much would you charge for each sign, finished? How long will it take for the whole job?
Joe
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Tim, how did you end up on this job? After reading this series, I was confused that you apparantly have a CNC router, but feel this job is not worth setting it up on your CNC. We just purchased a Gerber 404 Sabre router and just finished the distributor training/set up today. As we look forward to using this equipment, I would have thought that a simple job that could turn over between $500 and $750 would be pretty sweet. Then it occurred to me that your CNC is probably running 8 (plus) hours a day, but what I was wondering, how long do you think it would take to produce 10 such signs, excluding paint drying time? Joe made a reference to "bottom feeding" for dimensional signs. Please, someone enlighten me on the pitfalls of this type of work before I screw up by taking on similar work.
-------------------- Tony Lucero Eagle Graphics Waterford, MI www.eaglegph.com Posts: 305 | From: Waterford, MI, USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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