posted
Almost a year ago someone came into the shop that works for government agency that has its own sign shops. They happen to have one of these sign shops in the next town over from me. All they do is fill orders for signs that their agency needs at all of their different locations around the country, they have a few sign shops in this government dept, this particular one handles the northeast region. They had another shop in their agency that was doing digital prints for them, that guy retired and wasn't replaced, so I was asked if I could provide this prints to him, which I can. So after we did about a dozen or so different jobs for him he tells me that he is going to be buying his own equipment (ONE OF THOSE SIGN WAREHOUSE SPECIALS) and start doing sign work as a part time thing. I have no problem with this he says he is going to go after government accounts and things like that, he wants to make sure to maintain a good working relationship with me and be honest about everything etc. He asked me if I would do his CNC work which I said I would and his printing etc.. Now I hear from a customer of mine that he was trying to get work from them by saying he would do signs for a little league field for $25 cheaper than I will. So much for keeping a good working relationship. I really don't mind competition but I like it when it is fair. Well now that I am done with my big rant I got a sign to finish. JAKE
-------------------- Jake Lyman Lyman Signs 45 State Road Phillipston, MA 01331 Posts: 635 | From: Phillipston, MA | Registered: Sep 2002
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There was a nice local man who for years has designed sandblasted signs by hand. The jagoff sign shop over the hill from me finally ticked off the wrong employee, and this guy went to work for the nice sandblasting company. Within a year they got a plotter. Now they are running ads in the local Pennysaver "CHEAP SIGNS"...the nice guy is now cutting into my business! GRRR Moral: All is not fair in love & vynull. Love....jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
The 'rules' of this alleged 'good working relationship' which he stated were, quote:
" . . .he wants to make sure to maintain a good working relationship with me and be honest about everything, etc..."
However, this is'nt just his game, but your involved too, and since he changed the rules in the middle of it, you now have the right to make any rules you want . . .and even be the (easily) the better man by sticking to them.
At any rate, don't let nobody dawg you out . . .he obviously has a 'user/taker' mentality, so use your brains and take your freindliness elsewhere . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I am not really mad about the competition but i would never ask what someone else bid and than offer it $25 cheaper, if I bid it and that is where I came in good for me or good for him, but not that way, especially after telling me he wants to keep a good working relationship.
-------------------- Jake Lyman Lyman Signs 45 State Road Phillipston, MA 01331 Posts: 635 | From: Phillipston, MA | Registered: Sep 2002
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Well good luck Jake, hopefully he won't keep this action up 'til he takes all your business 25$ cheaper . . .reckon, that was a first & last time??
Where will he draw the line??
...I'm sorry to be so adamant... I just hardly ever trust, give many chances, or turn my back to back-stabbers....
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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it sucks when this happens to us, but over the long run you will find who your true customers really are. Stay on the path and this guy will most likely fade away.
One thing is I'd be going after the government work, after all fair is fair.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
He must not be smart enough to figure out his own prices and has to copy yours. At least he knows he isn't at good as you, thus the reason he's charging $25 less.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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ONe thing Jake, hes gonna make 25 dollars less on those signs, and every job he undercuts you on, he'll make less and less. This has a way of righting itself, when he does the books. He'll see his profits and recognize his mistakes. Might be too late then though. Y'know, I really hate it when someone intentionally undercuts to take business away. Just aint ethical. Push your quality and style more Jake. Make a point of doing something he cant. Eventually with that mentality, he'll burn out. Ive got six of em like that here.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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When you get a chance,, and when you know you are bidding against him, and you know he will unercut your price.. BID LOW.. REAl LOW.. You know you won't get the work. He will bid low just to keep you from getting it.. Then let him feed that monster. Soon he will be gone. Been there done that,, There is nothing more gratifying than to see some one doing work so cheap they have to steal the supplies to do it.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Got one of them here. He came to me under the pretence of being a supplier of custom built channel letters. He does nice work too. Next thing I know, he buys a vinyl plotter and is competing with me.
So, now I buy channel letters from someone else. You can't last long in a small town with a lowball reputation. People only come to people like that for one reason. They can have the cheapos!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I could see myself doing that the week the guy was on out of town, and GETTING the job!
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Worse case I ever had was a $30,000 mural quote down a concrete wall. Paint alone was over $2000!
"Competitor" came in(friend of a friend who told him my price) and hired a friend of mine (like his work) to do the initial consept at half the price for "peanuts". Asked him later what he got (cause I recognised his work) and he almost fainted when I told him what it was worth.
Problem is now that the Mural is faiding rapidly even after a few years. Nothing was double coated and I always spray mine with two coats of UV Clear.
Yer gets what you pay for I suppose.
Other problem is the number of people who think I did it
posted
I love the Term "Cut into my Business". As quoted by Jill, which I have the utmost respect.
Jill Dear, is the fella acually cutting into your business ? How dare they? And how do they ? How do these folks sneak their way into your head and steal your thoughts? How do they duplicate your ambition ? How do they imitate your creativity ? How do they re-create your flare ? And how in the world can they copy that Smile of yours ?
I know, I know... I had the same demonic thoughts about a competitor that blew into town a few months ago...
And yes, he Stole some of my "easy work". But I have persevered...
I actually used it to my advantage to raise my price on my Custom Quality work..
If I was questioned on my price by a customer, and truthfully, this rarly happens, but when I am questioned, I respond..
"Well since (so and so) starting eating up my Gravy work, I have had to raise my prices a bit to cover the bills" and sort of laugh about it... And then I add, "But that's o.k. everyone has to eat, even the ****ty Guy...
If anyone can move into your area and steal all your work, then your not that talented, have very little skill, and don't produce something special.
That's my opinion....
-------------------- Leonard Sappington lenopam@verizon.net Posts: 123 | From: Clinton, Indiana | Registered: Mar 2004
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Yes, he is cutting into my business. We live in overlapping areas, and he does coro. I'm not ashamed that coro signs are my bread and butter.
I do them for a fair price, not dirt cheap. People who would pay me $40 for a small well-designed coro sign will happily pay him $25 for the same thing.
Remember, he was first an artist and has some great skills. The flunky he hired can take his designs & puke em out till the cows come home. This newbie has no real idea of costs and percieved value, as all he did before was high-dollar sandblasted stuff. To him, vynull is cheap & easy. He charges accordingly.
Every sign job matters to me. I am raising 3 kids alone, and no matter how much I try to raise my prices I still feel as if I work to buy vynull. Yes I love those times when I get to paint a beautiful sign, but those times are getting fewer and farther between.
John Q. Public doesn't really give a rat's patooty if I am a Letterhead. But I do. Still, we all have to eat, and while I'm not gonna lower my prices, it is sure hard to compete with an undercutter.
Love.....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Don't give up on your customers even if they've given "Joe Cheapo" a try.
Chances are they weren't as satisfied with his work as they were with yours. Unfortunately, human nature probably keeps them from picking up the phone and admitting this to you but a carefully planned phone call can possibly extract the information you'll need to determine what to do next.
Remember, when everything is equal, YOU make the difference.
[ April 12, 2005, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Paul Bierce ]
-------------------- Paul Bierce - Designer pabierce@hotmail.com www.paulbierce.com Posts: 330 | From: Dix Hills, NY | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
If this guy is working for a government agency and working their equipment on their premises and bidding commercial jobs hurting local industry, I think it's illegal.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Funny guy Jeff.... You aren't the first to say that. Rick, He bought his own machine to cut vinyl with at home, As far as everything elss who knows. I am in no way accusing him of stealing from the govt. Just don't like the situation. JAKE
-------------------- Jake Lyman Lyman Signs 45 State Road Phillipston, MA 01331 Posts: 635 | From: Phillipston, MA | Registered: Sep 2002
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I like your attitude Jake, you sound like an upstanding guy.
quote: he wants to make sure to maintain a good working relationship with me and be honest about everything
Talk to him, be diplomatic and see what happens. He may see the error of his ways and mend them, if nothing else he may realize you are on to him and quit doing it because he realizes he got caught being unethical. There is no sense in getting caught up in a bidding war with him. Maybe what he needs is some help knowing what and how to bid, and that's why he is basing his prices on yours.
We all screw up sometimes, I think you may be able to turn this into something positive if you don't get too defensive.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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However, if you should ever find yourself in a rather cocky mood & get a call from some price shopper who wants to spend $100 on a $1000 job, give him that $100 price AND this guy's number.
This works especially well if that price shopper is one of those people who makes you want to smack them in the forehead with a sledge hammer.
posted
I agree with Kelly to, on everything but the helping with pricing. He has no overhead, no insurance to pay for etc... So he would use my info to make sure to stay a step lower than me, and be able to, remember he has federal government benefits. JAKE
-------------------- Jake Lyman Lyman Signs 45 State Road Phillipston, MA 01331 Posts: 635 | From: Phillipston, MA | Registered: Sep 2002
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...Dwell on the bottom and you will always have to compete with bottom feeders.
...Jake, he'd have a higher overhead if he was "legal" and had the insurance, business licenses etc, that a legit biz has to have. ..."Someone" might just rat him out to the local authorities, and then he'd have to go legal to operate...or get out of the water.
I anticipate hearing from you soon. You may also wish to request a bid from "XYZ Signs", I hear they are consistently underbidding me by $25 on all jobs."
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I'm tempted to take on a title like Jill and become the Coroplast King in Halifax!
I'm working out of home and intend on keeping my prices at the same level that I'd need if running out of a commercial location. My customers won't get a sudden rate hike when I move out of home and it increases my 'comfort' level a bit. I'll let the lowballers take the cheap customers.
As a sidenote - Halifax's newest Yellow Pages has an ad from some company called RMT Signs Metro and the bottom sentence is: "We Will Beat Anyone's Estimate". Yay! Another El-Cheapo shop in town.
posted
Just found out today that the local Sign A Rama is no more. I believe its the second time this location has closed down. Just gotta watch for equipment deals from their bank now!
posted
I found out that there is another new shop in town, mainly an embroidery place. I had to email them artwork for my sign client. When asked what format, I got a blank silent pause. Checked their website. They are advertising vehicle lettering and have some sort of versacamm or something. Just cuz you can buy the equipment doesn't mean you are a sign maker. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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jill, Keep your chin up gal! No one can replace you!
Kissy, I enjoyed your suggestion LOL.
Jake, pass this along to your "Buddy," ..."Character is what you do when nobody else is looking." Then look him in the eye real hard.
A fool will dig his own grave, step aside son and thank God he gave you better values to live by. If that dudn't grow you any corn, you're free to use the '$25 dollar cheaper ' line on your bids LOL.
posted
Last month I did some signage for a new business in town that is selling athletic gear. I gave the owner a sublimated shirt with his logo hoping he would buy some more. He told me he had a heat press and would by pre-cut graphics and numbers for baseball team uniforms and apply them to the shirts. Told him I could cut those for him but he said he gets a good price on them from a "buddy". Last week his wife calls, saying how she loves the sublimated shirt and wants to know where to buy the equipment because she wants to print out stuff for quilts I gave her the website of the most expensive dealer, told her not to buy a bulk ink setup as the cartridges would work fine After she does two or three head cleanings and finds out that her $400 worth of cartridges is almost empty she'll figure out it's not as easy as printing money like the adds say
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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