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What is the best route to take when you get a request for bidding on a 75 to 150 t'shirts with 5 color scenic logo on full front and full back with one color listing sponsors? It cost too much to get plasisol because of the set up charges due to all the colors. Thanks, Wayne Thanks,
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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If you are using white shirts you can get some inexpensive transfers done with archival inks. If the budget allows sublimation is the answer, only good on whites or light colors, requires shirts priced on the high side though.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Wayne Webb: What is the best route to take when you get a request for bidding on a 75 to 150 t'shirts with 5 color scenic logo on full front and full back with one color listing sponsors? It cost too much to get plasisol because of the set up charges due to all the colors. Thanks, Wayne Thanks,
Wayne, Here is what the screen printer needs to know....
1) Color of shirts 2) Quality and brand of shirt. Most printers prefer to use a 6.1 oz. 100% cotton shirt. Gildan Ultra is probably best route to go. It is comparable to the Hanes Beefy-T without the cost. 3) The number of colors per location. 4) Quantity of shirts and sizes.
Be aware that if you are printing 5 colors on a dark shirt, you will most likely need an underbase white. Don't let anyone sell you on simply double stroking the colors. A good print on a shirt is not one that is bullet proof.
If you are printing on a white or light colored shirt, you can print the 5 spot colors or even go with a CMYK process print.
For example, this Viking print was done using an underbase white, 4 spot colors and a highlight white.
If it had been done on a white shirt, I could have used just 5 colors by dropping the underbase.
Based in the info you provided, in my shop 75 white shirts with a 5 color print on the front and five colors on the back would cost $11.83 each and 150 would cost $7.59 each. The prices include all setups, screen prep and film postives using your computer file.
If the 5 color design were done on a dark shirt, adding for a white underbase, you would be looking at $15.50 each for 75 and $10.36 each for 150.
This should help provide a starting point when you talk to a screen printer.
Peferably, the printer will be using an automatic press and retentionable screens.
There are alternatives to screen printing. A site called www.zazzle.com. A friend sent me a shirt that he had done through them and it was a nice job. He was able to upload his design to them and they shipped his shirts back to him within 48 hours. The print was a sublimation transfer designed specifically for 100% cotton t-shirts. He had ordered 24 shirts and they cost him about $15 each for a full color print on both sides. What is nice about this type of transfer is that it very soft and will not fade or wash out like typical transfers.
If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to help.
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I'd agree with Glenn on this one. In the shop I run during the day a five screen run in a 75 quantity would be right about $12 per shirt. 150 quantity would be about $8.25. Adding a screen to print on the darks we would get about $14.75 at 75 and about $10.00 at 150.
Mark
-------------------- Mark Sheflo Renton, Washington A-Squared Signs, LLC Posts: 145 | From: Renton, Washington | Registered: Feb 2003
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Glen, You can not sublimate on a cotton shirt the dyes only work on poly shirts. Even a 50/50 shirt will not print well, the image will be washed out looking when new. There are papers with a poly base that you can print on and transfer to the shirt but these are just sitting on the fabric for lack of a better description, sublimation actually dyes the fabric which is why you can't feel the print and it will never fade. Unless zazzle has a unique paper unavailable to the public it can fade or peel. And at that price per shirt you can get a sublimated shirt and not have to worry.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Actually you can. Some of the new sublimation technology such as the Natura system will allow you to dye-sublimate on to 100% cotton. Take a look at www.naturaprint.com .
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Glenn, No you can't. With the Natura system you run your paper through the printer once for the color sublimation toners, and then once with a clear toner which contains the bonding agents. The bonding agents stick to the cotton fibers, the print sublimates to the bonding agent. The only advantage over using a prep sheet is that the printer will apply the bonding agent only over the graphics, not over the entire sheet size. The process does seem to work well enough, most users say the shirts compare to those done with archival inks made specifically for textiles. I use these www.jblgraphics.com
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Respectfully, I think we're arguing semantics here.
The term "sublimation" is becoming somewhat synonymous with words like "xerox". You are technically correct. When I said, "The print was a sublimation transfer designed specifically for 100% cotton t-shirts", I was using the word "sublimation" as a generic term to better convey something different than just a standard heat transfer which typically doesn't last very long. I'm sorry my attempt at brevity wasn't more clear.
That said, the Natura system is far different than the laser transfer systems that JBL offers.
If you get the chance, contact Natura and have them to send you a shirt. Compare it to a laser printed heat transfer. If you look closely at the two, the Natura system does more than sandwich a clear binder between the toner pigment and the cotton fibers. The pigment becomes chemically and physically bonded with the fibers.
From Natura's site...
While transfer paper has been available for years as a digital decorating process, limited wash durability and a heavy overprint have limited its adoption as a commercial print solution. Natura’s unique chemistry is based around a fundamentally different approach, providing a truly durable yet soft image area. While transfer paper creates only a physical bond, the Natura toners create a true chemical bond to the cotton molecules. Additionally, the toner is only printed where the graphic image appears, so there’s no overprint around the border of the graphic.
While true sublimation requires the presence of polyester for the ink pigment to gas into the polyester molecule, that is not too different from the process that Natura uses. The Natura clear binder, acting as a carrier for the pigment, seeks to bind to the cotton fibers on a molecular level.
Laser transfers tend lay on the surface of the cotton fibers. The Natura system bonds at a deeper level thereby providing vibrant colors that are longer lasting and don't fade after repeated washings like standard laser transfer imprints.
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Taylor: I was using the word "sublimation" as a generic term to better convey something different than just a standard heat transfer which typically doesn't last very long.
Better watch out, SG may see you use the word "sublimate" and sue you for infringing on their patent.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I didn't know JBL was offering laser type products, I buy their archival inks. The shirts I have seen done with laser printers aren't too impressive. Sawgrass can use all the tech talk they want about linking to the cotton molecules of the shirt, the Natura prints DO fade over time. Even if they didn't I wouldn't buy that system because of their business practices. They were smart or lucky enough to file a patent for any formulation of sublimation inks in any printer less than 42" wide. I wish I had the patent on cutting vinyl with a plotter Glenn if you've never tried a sublimation shirt I'll swap you one of mine for one of your cool prints on a black shirt.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Actually, I do sublimation here. I've been using a bulk ink system from Tropical that a fellow Letterhead put me onto.
I have several shirts from Natura from over the last few years for testing. As part of the testing, the shirts get washed with my jeans once every week. So far, I've not noticed any apreciable fading. In fact, they've held up better than any of the shirts I bought from Disney back in 2003.
There is a problem, however, with fibrillation which can create the illusion of fading. For those who are just starting out in screen printing, "Fibrillation" is when the cotton fibers break through the surface of a plastisol ink imprint. This problem is most common in the higher quality 100% cotton t-shirts. The "cheap" shirts use a shorter cotton fiber making the issue less of a problem. I bring this up concerning the Natura system because it "dyes" the cotton fibers chemically and there is nothing to hold the fibers down. Hence the perception of fading.
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I realize this is an old topic, but since I'm new here and do shirts, I thought I'd add that I print 100% cotton t-shirts with micro-dry transfers and my cost per printed shirt is well under $4 (shirt plus full color transfer). Excellent washability (better than anything I've tried)... and beautiful output.
-------------------- Sharon O'Brien-Lykins HorseDesigns.Com PO Box 1898 Penn Valley CA 95946 horsedesigns@gmail.com Posts: 43 | From: Penn Valley, California | Registered: May 2005
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Dye sub people can talk all they want about how long their prints will last, the real trick is finding a t-shirt that actually lasts longer than 4 months. I don't just wear clothes, I *live* in them.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I buy about 25 dozon shirts a year. This years pattern is 4 colors on a white 50.50 costing about 5.60 bux each.. They are worn about 2 x a week.
Would this dye sub process work for me in this type of usage environmet? Is it possible to get them at around the price I'm payin now? What are the limitations? And, how detailed an image can I get?
Samples available any one?
Glenn That viking looks great..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Thanks Curtis, but I can't take credit for the Viking. That goes to GreatDaneGraphics.Com. It was a fun job to do. It had forced me to learn more about how to use a DCS2 file format with Photoshop and Corel Draw.
For more detailed information on sublimation and its costs, I'd recommend checking out TropicalGraphics.Com. They have a great How-To section.
I hope this helps.
*edit*
BTW, if you are paying $5.60 per shirt for a 4 color screen print (same location) on 300 50/50 blend shirts you are probably paying too much. That kind of job goes for about $4.25 each here.
Also, for anyone interested, check out the new Mimaki GP-604D. Using a discharge ink, it will print directly onto dark colored shirts. It looks pretty cool. I'm waiting for them to send me a sample shirt.
[ May 27, 2005, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Been through the laser transfer bit, the sublimation (fargo)bit, water based silk screen, and am now printing shirts with either solvent based output from the roland versacamm, and I am now finally properly equipped to do plastisol silkscreen shirts.
The plastisols I am fairly familiar with and have a good idea of life expectancy; as this is hardly a new technology, support and information is abundant. What I'm wondering about is the life expectancy of the transfers produced with the versacamm with eco-sol inks on a plastisol like media.
For short, full color runs or small prints they are cost effective, and have the advantage of being 'cutable',and so far the print quality is outstanding, even on dark color shirts.
I've been washing shirts weekly since November with no appreciable deterioration.
Anyone else using this media?
[ May 27, 2005, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Mike O'Neill ]
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Mike no but I would like to investigate further into using the Roland machine as a transfer printer. What are Rolands claims on wearability and durability?
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
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I don't use sublimation because it requires you use the special (pricey) shirts and that runs my costs up for discounting... plus the sub samples I've seen so far do not get the darkest blacks I have come to take for granted... not to mention you can get into a micro dry printer for many $$$ less than a sub or laser. The one setback to micro dry is that while it's a reliable top quality printer, it's not a fast printer. As far as wearbility, I've been doing this for 7 years and not one single complaint ever about the design fading. Transfer paper sizes are standard or legal. These transfers work just for shirts, though... not mugs, tiles, etc. For that I would get sub.
-------------------- Sharon O'Brien-Lykins HorseDesigns.Com PO Box 1898 Penn Valley CA 95946 horsedesigns@gmail.com Posts: 43 | From: Penn Valley, California | Registered: May 2005
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