posted
I am in Greensboro NC and I am noticing a trend in higher prices in sign material, but lower prices in signs in the area. I seem to be always "competing" with shops that drop their prices because they use vinyl and a computer.
I would like to specialize in handpainted signs, but get cut by the Quick Signs Overnight franchises that are cropping up all over in shopping strips.
How do you compete with that?
I feel like I am trying to run a four star steakhouse in a fastfood world.
posted
and how long you been in this business?? hehehehe i think most of us "old sign people" have been sayin this for the last 20 years. the cheapo shops come..and are gone...in most cases...within a year. the quality and design skills of most of them is not good, so they dont last. the y just run down the prices for us who are left to pick up their old clients. now we got to tell these people that a price of sign is not what they paid for with the last guy...now we look like we are gouging prices....but if you do it in a nice way....you will get the better price...i got em here doin 18z24 yard signs for $10, 3x15 ft banners for $150!!! 4x8's for $150....so the lowballer is everywhere....but they dont last....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's right Joe, some a$$hole is always right behind the one that just went out of business thinking that the same strategy is going to work for them. We're a franchise but it's the non-franchise shops that are doing the $80 4x8's and the $10 coro signs and so on. There is a LOT more to selling signs than just having the lowest prices; in fact, the price is one of the lower considerations, according to polls from corporate. We have them every friggin year, opening up, having a half-page yellow pages ad and low, low prices. They only last a few months and then they are gone, owing the suppliers and other vendors and leaving a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths. I think what is happening is that moron #1 goes bust, sells the equipment to moron #2 and they go "into the sign business" until they lose all their money and finally sell the equipment to moron #3 and so on. I think I may be right up front with them from now on; go in and introduce myself and explain the facts of life "I *WILL* put you out of business - period." ...and when you've lost all your money, give me a call and I'll buy your equipment. Sell the stuff on ebay for whatever I can get - just to get it the heck out of my town. That way I can keep my prices up and continue to make a living and take vacations in Alaska. Anybody that sells their signs for these prices (1) will not last long (2) is not the sharpest tack in the box business wise (3) are not well capitalized (4)will be desperate to get out in 3-4 months.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Boyd, there was a neat thread a couple months back, by the above Ricky Jackson, I think it was called "My experience with a franchise sign shop".
There was also a more detailed one last year about six figure income in the sign trade. Myself, I'd like to get to where I could run an efficient vinyl shop, but for now, I do the jobs others can't or won't do. Most of them involve paint and leaving the shop. SERIOUSLY narrows the competition, therefore can bid according to my shop rate, not the prevailing market price.
It's a transition. It doesn't happen quickly, usually. What Ricky said above about the equipment passing from one startup to another makes a lot of sense. I bought one of those plotters, but I think it has found it's final home. That's a whole 'nother story though.
I think if you're commited to being in this trade, and were willing to read details about working with paint and 'older' techniques, you could learn just about everthing you would need here at this board. I'll tell you everything I know, one step at a time.
(is 'nother really a word???)
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
We got a couple shops here that daddy bought them a vinyl cutter & now they think they're a sign shop. Their prices are downright braindead and their signs make me lose my appetite.
It takes a while to set yourself apart.
However, it can be done. Some simple rules...
1. Don't produce ugly crap.
2. Don't charge too little or come down in price, makes them think you were planning on overcharging them to begin with.
3. Talk to your customers like you know what you're talking about. You'd be surprised how little price matters if a customer talks to a shop that knows what they're doing (or at least fakes it real well) and to a shop with super low prices being run by an idiot.
4. Look professional. Professional attitude, Professional image: nicely lettered vehicle (not some jalopy with different colored doors from the junkyard), make sure you don't smell and don't have 1/2 the neighbor kids hanging out in the shop when you're trying to meet with a customer.
5. Deliver on time. Things come up from time to time that don't allow that to happen but if you're constantly rushing to meet deadlines, build yourself some "fluff" in the schedule. If a job has to be done by end of day Tuesday, tell yourself the deadline is end of day Monday. If you get it done early, great. The customer will be tickled.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I recently started working for a "sort of" vinyl shop. It started out that way but has evolved into a pretty "full service" sign source. They do digital printing, laminating and of course vinyl in house. They sub out electrical and until I started working there subbed their dimensional work to me. Now that will be in house too. They turn more in a month than I did in my best years. and adhere to all five things Kissy outlined.
Yes Ricky, I've joined The Dark Side. Thank God it's not a franchise per se. We don't have toilet paper with the corporate logo on it.
-------------------- Dennis Goddard
Gibsonton Fl Posts: 1050 | From: Tampa Fl USA | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
denise you workin for my buddy john weber? hehehe hes down there in that area....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for everyones encouragement. I have been "in the business" since '79 and have lost my business due to 'quicky' sign shops before. Now I am more determined than ever to get "an attitude" and make myself be seen bigger than ever. Often, I quote a price, (approx 15-20% below National Avg of the 2001 Price Guide Book) and lose to Sign-*-R*m* or some other chain that has employees they need to keep busy.
posted
Have you read Mike Jackson's article in the current issue of Sign Craft? He again deals with the problem of building a portfolio of where you want to take the customer and providing another alternative to the sticky issue.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6722 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Boyd said "I would like to specialize in handpainted signs, but get cut by the Quick Signs Overnight franchises that are cropping up all over in shopping strips." ------------------------ All the advice above is good. However, you are not exactly in competition with the quickie-stickies. You want to do something that they DON'T do. Probably something more interesting that 100 parking signs. So you're after a different clientele, I believe.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
i have to agree with rick on that artical mike jackson wrote...we as sign artist have to seporate ourself from the ones who are battling over magnetics and banners. raise our selves up and do things that not everybody can do like hand lettering and better design layout. not every body goes for the lowest price when they see the difference in the impact.
chris
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
Thats the truth. Even here in little ol harlan, we've got six, count em, six vinyl shops. Not one of them has any experience other than knowing how to run a computer. But, like said above, Ive quit worrying about them. Im pushing quality and skill and experience in what I do, and my knowledge of materials and using them. Let the others fight it out.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Guess what Boyd? There are long waiting-list reservations to get a table in a 4-star steak house. . . .
hmmmmmmmmmm...
. . .and, have'nt you ever stood in, or seen long waiting lines at really nice, dine-in restaurants, that cost you 5 to 10 times what a drive-thru joint does?
If so, why did you do that?
'Hmmmmmmmmm' again.
Remember, there are a good many people who'd refuse drive-thru even if it were free . . .
BTW . . . Welcome to Letterville.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The low end market is always tough and iffy. As technology increases the potential for competitors increases. These days signs can be ordered over the net at discount prices. Who wants to compete with that?
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's true Joe. I saw a supplier I've bought thousands of dollars of materials from advertize in some popular magazine "There's never been a better time to get in the sign business". I hope they weren't expecting any loyalty from me because they didn't get any after that.
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
The lowering cost of sign making equipment is only a problem when whoever buys it is looking to create a "quicky sticky shop" and devalue the market.
Personally, I'd never had intended to buy a vinyl cutter, but when a good price came along, I added it to the aresenal. In the right hands, it's an effective tool to stengthen a shop with.
Boyd,
quote: I would like to specialize in handpainted signs, but get cut by the Quick Signs Overnight franchises that are cropping up all over in shopping strips.
How do you compete with that?
Don't.
IMHO, there's really 2 sign markets out there...
1: The "I need it yesterday, cheap" market, which the "fast" vinyl shops accomidate. Typical of that need, most of the customers put little or no importance to the effectiveness a good design can have for their business.
2: The "I give a damn" market. Admittly, these customers are few and far between, but are more concerned with long lasting and effective signage. Many have been in business a while and not as hard to sell to. (Some even own 4 star steakhouses... )
Do a good clean hand lettered job on your business vehicle, take pictures of ALL your work and build a strong portfolio. It takes a while to build the reputation for quuality work, but it does come in time.
Some people are sign makers...some are sign crafters. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I asked my CPA if he was worried about H&R Block.
-------------------- Carper's Signs 594 Union School Rd. Mount Joy, PA 17552 carpersign@earthlink.net Posts: 157 | From: Lancaster, PA, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jim, maybe you can let us know the company doing the advertising to get new customers to try and put his old ones out of business so we can all boycott them and call them and let them know why we aren't buying anything else from them. There is power in numbers.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
this is a post on another board...i think its someone lyin thru their eye balls...but here it is... Hello to all the cheap people and not-so cheap too!
Hi, My specialty is coroplast, polystyrene and magnetic signs, plus banners. I used to do magnetic signs, but I find the prices were driven to low as of late. I'm cheap, I'm not insane... I had a customer print out a web page saying the company makes magnetic signs for $9.99 a pair, one color or $12.99 a pair for two colors, 12x24. Thanks to the new $7.70 flat rate priority mail boxes, they will ship up to 5 pairs for a mere $8.00! It's just nnot worth the time and effort... my calculations have my magnetic costs around $3.25 a pair using the cheapest stuff I can buy. I can't work for $7 an hour, even though there are days... Anyhow my main reason coming here is to network with people I can outsource work to. I have a i9100 13x19" bubblejet printer and a 24" roland plotter. I've had limited success with a roll of Ameriban's Jexar 6mil water fast matte white vinyl cut down to fit into this printer (12x18 sheets). I'd love to have a real inkjet plotter, but funds are tight at the moment, so I am looking for a source to do this sort of thing for me.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
What value do you really offer prospective customers over what your low-price competitors are doing?
What kinds of customers will want or need the additional value you are offering? What else do those customers need or want?
How will you find them, or ensure that they will find you?
How will you keep them?
If you can't give specific answers to those questions...you might want to think about making a priority of finding answers.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
Talk about THAT guy needin' meds and a steak . . . but he'll never be able to afford either . . .
He's either lyin', or is mentally unstable...the manufacturers can't even produce the materials THAT cheap . . .and check out his last comment OP: ______________________________________________ "I'd love to have a real inkjet plotter, but funds are tight at the moment, so I am looking for a source to do this sort of thing for me." ______________________________________________
LOL! I can't imagine why his funds are low...can you??
Anyway, find out who that 9.99-a-set-idiot is & what kind'a work and materials he's usin' . . .if they're decent, we'll hold him to these prices and get 1000% profit retail markup on sets of mags for doin' nuthin' . . .LOL
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. John Ruskin
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Boyd I live thirty miles west of you in Winston-Salem.All I can tell you Boyd is to hang in there and get what you can. The days of the client respecting decades of experience and discipline are long gone here. There is no way a one man shop can compete with chain franchises in this area that have budgets large enough to sponsor the morning weather on the local tv here.
The one thing they do that most of the local commercial shops do not do, explains their success,....they market themselves. They send out fliers and usually have large budgets set aside for sales staff and advertising. They trade out signage for advertising alot of the time. Their one mainstay is not waiting for the customer to call them , but to aggressivly seek out the client and bring the work into the shop.
On another note they bring about another problem for themselves and anyone else in the trade. Their payscale for employees is often as not set up on the same as those of fast food chains, very low rewards for the young folks and little promise of any advancement for anyone but the franchise owner. This creates a large turn around in their workforce and generates more competition. Due to this turn around alot of new upspring "sign shops" are rapidly created by the low cost of equipment and software, thus saturating the market. I did a search recently on the talking phone book site here and found over 250 listings for businesses offering signs between Burlington and Winston'.I doubt this is an accurate number as alot of new shops have the funds and or choose to list themselves in that particular phone page listing, so if anything it is not accurate and the actual number is much higher.
The software companies and equipment manufacturers are not going to limit their sales to keep the laws of supply and demand balanced.There are no plans by municipalities in the near future to license and or regulated the trade other than code regulations. It doesn't paint a promising future and I doubt it will change anytime soon.
Please do not take this as anything other than a realistic observation,as I too have been in this business since '78. The times that it took five or so years to learn this trade are long gone. Anyone with the money can buy their way into this business. Todays mentality in this area is that if someone has the funds for software and equipment they have the artistic capabilities included with the computer aided design packages and technology.
In the end you can view this as a negative response and or a realistic view, the choice is yours,....Your cup can be half full or half empty,...the choice is yours. The important thing is how you react to the factors and what actions you take,.....
I wish you good luck and hope you can explain the difference between a Mickey D's Burger and a Steak to your clients. Remember a majority of the folks out there are going to waste half their lunch hour in the drive thru on High Point road,..you don't want their business,... the ones you are looking for will be having their meal served to them in an upscale restaurant. My point being here is that if you can't compete with the lowball pricing, find a niche that you can compete in and profit from it.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Don't paint all franchisees with the same brush. I'm called the renegade franchisee because I do things "MY WAY". As far as being the cheap, fast sign shop, I lose deals frequently because I am the highest bidder.
How many shops out there raised their prices this year? I did - and I stick to it!
I recently had one customer threaten me with calling the law and taking a warrant out on me. I was speechless and asked why. He said I was the highest SOB in town!
I do not work for free or give stuff away. It's A-Holes that come in and give stuff away that hurts all of us in it for the long haul. I sell myself and our shop capabilities.
We continue to grow every month and recently leased a 60 ft Elliot. We didn't do that giving our stuff away.
-------------------- Jeff Poitevint Sign-A-Rama Augusta 4015-M Washington Rd. Martinez, Ga. 30907 706-364-6393 augustasigns@comcast.net www.augustasigns.com Posts: 102 | From: Augusta, Ga. | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic