I see a few of you have business partners and just wondered how that works for you.
Sometimes I feel like a hamster on a wheel; answer the phone, you need a quote?; nope, that sign isn't done yet; okay today I've GOT to get my books done up; damn, I need supplies; gotta get at that pile of designs; sure I can squeeze you in; life? what life? ha ha
I just think it would be great to have two of you. I have lots of great marketing ideas, but can't get the work done I've got on my plate now. I have an employee, but basically her skills are weeding...and not particularily quickly either. I do the billing, designing, estimating, cutting, painting, printing, ordering, and wash the coffee cups at night!
Anyone found the answer yet??
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm trying to get a partner, Linnie. It will be nice to have the help and support. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I can do most anything except sell stuff. Anyone want to be my sales partner?
I know a lot of folks who need help/partners that I would love to work with, you included Suelynn. Wish they/you were closer to me! Everyone around here pulls out a stop sign when competitors walk in like we're stealing all their secrets or something.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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suelynn you need to move here...we've discussed this..even if we failed at the sign biz which would be doubtful, at best we'd have a great sign reality tv comedy. i should just leave my webcam on so people can see this hamster on her wheel...i'm sure its quite amusing to watch me have my mini melt downs.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Yea, marry an artist It ain't easy, that's for sure. It's real easy for the business to run you instead of the other way around. Try to gain some control. Schedule certain times of the day for production, office work, handling the phone etc. and STICK to them!!! One thing you can do to free up a lot of time is don't let the phone interrupt you, let the answering machine get it and call back at your convenience. I used to be one of those people that would break their neck to get to the phone before the third ring. When I ran my shop I also used to literaly waste entire days on the phone. Now, unless there is absolutely nothing going on, we let the machine get it. I also really avoid giving out our cell number, I don't think more than five customers have that one and you can bet these are the best, "well trained" customers. On the issue of supplies, I feel for you. We don't do much vinyl at all, we are ALWAYS out of something. The supply houses are ALL 45 minutes away. It's sooooooooooo easy to keep our paint and tape supplies stocked to where we never run out....vinyl, about impossible without tying up a fortune. Sometimes it's best to have the supplies shipped UPS especially if you weigh the shipping cost against your shop rate and your time lost. DO NOT set up tight deadlines of anykind!!!!!!!!! Figure how long a certain job will take to produce and double it, give yourself a cushion. It' soooooo easy to let a customer push you into really tight spaces. We can bend over backwards to get the job out on time, along with all our other commitments. Then the friggin "deadline job" will sit in our shop for three weeks I try to put things in perspective. I mean, hey, we are sign makers not surgeons. I had a guy call me one time from a body shop about some pinstripes. "We've got an emergency down here" I told him to call 911 He got it
[ March 17, 2005, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Employees should be productive, if they're not taught well and supervised well, pretty soon you will be working twice as hard because of them.
Don't let this happen, hire on a 30 or 60 or90 day temp. plan, if they learn well have a good work attitude, good attendence, etc. then keep them and give em a raise, but if they don't save you at least 6 hours a day, then don't keep them .
The employer owes the employee only; a usual wage for the requirements, a safe and comfortable work place, good instructions on said requirements (they should be written and outline times of day/week/tasks necc.) and the respect that comes with a job well done.
If the employer dosn't train or supervise well there is no sence in hireing, no matter what the wage!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Oh, Lynnie, do I know from whence you come! Used to be three of us here, plus a couple of part timers, but now it's jes' li'l ol' me. Had a great guy who now has his own business, Deb had the opportunity to get a great job in her field,so now I get to do all the stuff, except the books, which, thank you Lord, Deb still does.Like George sez, I still run to the phone, but there's nobody watching when I feel like goofing off! MUR
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
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You should already have some partners, but you may not be using them wisely.
For starters, your banker, acountant and attorney should be working with you and helping you manage your business in an effective manner.
Your spouse and your peers also should be able to give advise and lend a hand when necessary.
The suppliers where you buy your products from should also be treated as partners too. After all, they control the quality of the products you buy from them. They need to deliver them in a timely manner and should support you in using them correctly, safely and efficiently.
Most importantly, when things go wrong, all of these partners need to be there supporting you in the manner that will favor your business.
Finally, some of you clients can be partners too. When I was working in New Jersey, one of our best partners was a glass shop in the same industrial complex we worked from. We did all of their signs and vehicle lettering at a slightly discounted rate. In return, they would steer their clients in our direction when they needed signs or vehicle lettering.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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One time a consultant showed us that we could have a minimun wage part time employee that screened calls and ran interference for us during four hours in the morning. This would enable us to each get in four billable hours before lunchtime and in the afternoon we could get a couple more and one of them should cover the employee's wage.
We hired someone to do the books, and that had it's nightmares. It really helped to have that office person spending one day a week performing custodial tasks. Although I don't mind cleaning the toilet or sweeping floors, it was best done by someone else.
Seems that there are many folks out there that can do pieces of the production, allowing you to manage and design and sell. We hired someone that can build most anything, and learned to follow instructions with vinyl and paint masks. Finding employees that work independantly and don't continually interrupt with questions they could figure out themselves and that have some ingredient missing that would allow them to become trained competition is the difficult part.
Suelynn, hold control. Partnerships require tremendous skill and clear definition as to who has authority where and that those boundaries remain respected. As soon as one partner criticises the other, it's on the way down.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6720 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I started out with a partner, but chose to buy him out in order to make the changes that were necessary.
After a while on my own, I took in Ryan (you remember him) with the hope that he could take over a lot of responsibilities once he was trained. I was fully prepared to make him a partner. Turned out responsibility wasn't exactly his strength....
Then my husband Eugene helped for a while, still comes sometimes and does some bookwork. I like that a lot, but it's not like having a singmaker partner.
An employee is just not the same. You can't really brainstorm together and when there's little work you have to lay them off.
posted
Suelynn... you described my life today pretty well. I also have the first little bit of help, for 8 or 9 months no, my step daughter has been weeding, making banners & other basic vinyl signs, & running some jobs on the edge. She is also learning to take care of paying the bills sometimes. ...but I don't have her take calls & walk-ins yet, because she just doesn't know enough of the answers to questions yet & thats not an area I want to have her learn from her mistakes.
quote:I have lots of great marketing ideas, but can't get the work done I've got on my plate now.
That sentence sounds familiar too, & I have made a step in the right direction.
I had a guy walk in the door just yesterday with a resume outlining 3 years experience in a signshop. He has worked with almost all the software I use, & some software I would consider adding if I bring him on board. I told him I was seriously interested in interviewing him, because the step up to employing a semi-trained sign professional is one I've been preparing to take this year.
During the close of our interview I mentioned that I would be talking over the details of an employment proposal with a "partner" of sorts, & that I would have one ironed out by Monday.
This post is not entirely a plug for my "partner" but it deserves mention that I've been working with Jon Aston (Letterville Merchant) in his somewhat recent new business "Marketing Partners" In our work together, a 3 year growth strategy has been developed & I've been "positioning" myself to prepare for a semi-trained sign guy to walk through the door here. (& we don't get many of those around here... in fact, I've only seen 2 or 3 in 8 years)
Anyway, besides having another extra office already built & a lot of thought already invested in the division of labor, & allocation of limited space, I've also begun to implement some marketing strategies even though I am totally the hamster right now, often working until sunrise, & giving up almost every evening & weekend. If I don't get help, I could have enough work without marketing... but that describes the last few years, & a lot of that work could be easily handed off to someone with far less experience then myself. If I don't get out from under that portion of my workload... my creative interest in this business will suffer.
I called Jon at or after 10 pm his time, & faxed him the resume & we spoke for close to an hour. He will do a second interview for me by phone & I will consult with him on the compensation package. Although I retain control of every business decision. It has been extremely helpful to have another pprofessional to lean on for help sorting out some of the larger business decisions. I've been working with Jon for right around a year already & he has aquired a good understanding of me, my business, & the overall picture of where things stand today, as well as where I want to go. With that foundation already in place, his ability to offer good advice, & to help implement some of it himself has proven to be worth more then his fees. (well... equal to his fees )
I hear you when you say the employees are only as good as their trainers. What ends up happening though, is I look for things she can do on her own, because I've got a million other things to do. She'll sit and weed and while I'm walking by, I'll stop and say, "You know its actually easier and quicker if you weed left to right" or, "Remember, you pull the transfer tape all the way out, then lay it down and work your way toward the roll". I just don't understand why I'm still saying it after 4 times. I'd love to get to the point where my employee can do simple layouts and prepare the files without my help, but I can't let go of the "it's got to be great, cause it's MY name on the sign". I don't really want to let go.
I've learned that I'm not a very good boss. I'm too nice...
I have been hiring out a bit of the design work (Thanks Stevo) and that has helped me quite a bit. My ego suffers some, cause then its not MINE. But it isn't about ego...it's about business.
hmmm, I'm thinking out loud here and solving my own problems...thanks guys and gals. Great advice.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Suelynn, I started this business with a partner in 1980. We had very different personalities but were both fiscally cheap. We had a partnership that was excellent. I don't think the we had a fight in the 17 years we were together. He was about 15 years my senior and he passed away in 97, way too young, 61.
I miss him and his abilities dearly even today. Just having someone to bounce ideas off of and make decisions with is a wonderful thing and made operating a business MUCH easier.
Having said all that, would I take on another partner? No. Too much to risk at my age. I do have a good employee and deal with the same things that your are. Trying to get him to do things MY way. I have come to realise that most things aren't worth making an issue out of though. He will get it done and it will be a good job. It's hard to back off sometimes though.
I'm not a good boss either. Way too much of a "nice" guy. It can be a struggle some days for sure.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1357 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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LOL Suelynn . . .I just thought me and Mike were the control freaks!! We all need a little black mustach under our nose and some sort of whipping stick . . .LOL!!!
I'm the same way Suelynn . . .it's SO HARD to watch someone struggle with something when you know all the little tricks that will make them SO much faster and more useful...and I'm TRYING to be patient and 'nice' . . .WHY CAN'T THEY JUST AUTOMATICALLY 'GET IT'!!!!! I'm trying to help them avoid all the wrong ways that I done tried by GIVING them, right up-front, THE easy way and they still fumble along . . .AAARRRRRGGGGGGGGG...DOOM-KAUFF!!!
Yes....I'm best at trying to do it all myself . . .I have no patience after explaining something 12 times. . .
BUT, Emily LOVES weeding and does a great job when I'm not in the room watching!!
Mabey SHE will be my new partner someday ...if she wants. . .
posted
Hey I know!...We need to have a reverse application for potential partners and employees....you know, so they can get to know something about us right away . . .some good questions would be:
1.Would you describe yourself, or has anyone else ever described you as: A.Control freak B. Perfectionist C.All of the above
2.When asking someone to do something that you've personally been doing for 15 years, do you expect them to do it absolutely perfectly the first 1 -5 times??
3.Do you believe there are more than 1 or two ways to some things well??
4.Do you subscribe to the 'My way or the highway' idea??
5.When you demonstrate a certain step more than 5 times, and you still appear to be smiling, is it because your really being patient or are you gritting your teeth and feeling some animosity??
6.Are you often given to hiding your true feelings in the name of 'politeness', or when trying to exhibit patience?
7.On a scale of one to ten, without seeing me work and based on the above answers, how do you rate my chances here?
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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I do everything myself, but my husband helps me to lay vinyl, coat out signs, & he sandblasts rocks that people come to us for. You know, the yard stones with the people's names on them. We kind of got into that by accident, & it works for extra money.
He also is a GREAT encourager, & has been after me, about pricing & things like that. He has been pushing me to stand up the the "tightwads" that try to get me to come down on price.
He just gets a bit aggressive, sometimes....like talking about pointing his shotgun at them & telling them to leave!
quote:Originally posted by Sheila Ferrell: Hey I know!...We need to have a reverse application for potential partners and employees....you know, so they can get to know something about us right away . . .some good questions would be:
1.Would you describe yourself, or has anyone else ever described you as: A.Control freak B. Perfectionist C.All of the above
Hey, what kind of options are those? By the way you have an extra space after the letter "B".
2.When asking someone to do something that you've personally been doing for 15 years, do you expect them to do it absolutely perfectly the first 1 -5 times?? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Perfection is a religious concept getting close is doable.
3.Do you believe there are more than 1 or two ways to some things well?? [/QB][/QUOTE]
There's two ways ????
4.Do you subscribe to the 'My way or the highway' idea?? [/QB][/QUOTE]
I subscribe to it but it never gets delivered.
5.When you demonstrate a certain step more than 5 times, and you still appear to be smiling, is it because your really being patient or are you gritting your teeth and feeling some animosity?? [/QB][/QUOTE]
I ain't smilin.
6.Are you often given to hiding your true feelings in the name of 'politeness', or when trying to exhibit patience? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Is that so wrong?
7.On a scale of one to ten, without seeing me work and based on the above answers, how do you rate my chances here?
[/QB][/QUOTE]
How big did you say that whip was?
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Instead of a partner it sounds like you could use a better employee. Someone more skilled, who get's more done with less monitoring. And it sounds like you know it too.
There are certain tasks I can hire unskilled people for, digging holes, sanding and priming unimportant stuff and sometime's just to HOLD THIS while I screw it in. (that didn't sound right). But those people are here for a specific project and gone when it's done - Temp help.
A 'real' permanent employee who's going to come in every day has to know their stuff - get started just by scanning the work orders, inform me BEFORE we run out of something (then get on the phone and call it in themselves), and generally try to make me as much money as they can by being productive for every minute they're on the clock. Your current help doesn't sound like they see it that way. Maybe they're distracted, their mind's not in it, or they really aren't that intelligent. Regardless, they aren't doing you any favors.
Look into acquiring what we used to call a "journeyman", someone already well versed in all the skills you need. I bet you would make more money paying someone twice as much or 3 times as much if they had advanced skills and a more professional work ethic and attitude.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Sheila Ferrell: lol Jim!!. . .Perhaps you could add a few good questions for the inevitabley offensive would-be partner/employee that dares enter the lair??
1. Do you think we'll get along better after you realize I'm God?
2. Your opinion is important so please write it down and keep it in a safe place.
3. Can you weed vinyl while answering the phone?
4. Great, you have a graphic designer's degree, how good are you at cutting and priming plywood?
5. Can you weed vinyl, period?
6. No, we don't have an Espresso machine here.
7. Do you know what the words smooth, level and straight mean? Nope, guess not.
-------------------- Jim Upchurch Artworks Olympia WA Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The employee takes a very different direction when you just change or ad a couple words;
"This is the way I want you to do this"
(it clarifies and also shows friendly authority.)
Rather then "its better if you do it this way"
I find the way an order is givin makes all the difference in how its followed, and keeps you from having to be a "bad guy", your employee will have much respect for you and your directives.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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I don't have a partner and my husband tries to help me at least apply app tape to big stuff once in a while but he don't exactly get my directions.
I have been considering adding a "silent" partner. Not a real person, but someone I can use when I want to get out of something...like say someone wants to send me a check instead of paying at delivery.. "Gee, I'd like to let ya do that, but my partner would have a fit".
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Is my imaginary friend considered a parter?
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3820 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head Joe. I think I have been a poor trainer, and I need to think more about getting my employee to a place that I need her to be. I'm going to work on a list of jobs I want her to learn, and then we'll get on the training. I need to make her more aware of the timeframes too. She is smart, and I enjoy working with her, so I think I can make this work.
Thanks for the advice guys.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Years ago when the twilight zone was on there was a story of a guy who was put on a plantet my him self. once a year the supply ship came.any how one year him buddy on the supply ship brought him a android woman. program her or him any way u want. whata think?
-------------------- Stan Yates Crocodile Creek Signs PO Box 308 Waldo FLA 32694 crocodilecreeksigns@juno.com Posts: 85 | From: waldo. fla | Registered: Aug 2002
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Suelynn, It sounds like you're looking for an employee rather than a partner. But, if you invest in your employee wisely, you can be hiring your future business partner and retirement plan at the same time. I forget who originally suggested the idea here many years ago, but that employee that you hire, when trained correctly, can be the person who evenventually becomes your partner and ultimately buys you out when you are ready to retire. If the situation is handled incorrectly, you can be training your future competition, so it can be tricky. I think I saved the original post on my home computer. IF I can find it, I'll repost it.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Training your employee properly is one of the most important things in biz you can do.
At one point I had my employee running the entire show in my absense. I oversaw designwork she faxed to me at my home and offered suggestions, but she did the rest. It was an amazing ride. And they'll also feel more appreciated if you give them more responsibility along with the growing appropriate pay raises.
Sounds like you have a great plan of action. I remember the training days so well. I thought I'd NEVER stop talking.
posted
Here's some of the text I was referring to. Unfortunately, I lost the rest of the discussion, so this might not make complete sense. This comment was originally posted by Preston McCall back in January of 1997 and was titled "Are you hiring your future competition?"... You can always bonus the employee a one percent of the profits per year worked with the understanding that he is acquiring a similar "percentage" ownership in the business. The business obviously has assets and his participation in the well being of those assets can make the difference in how the assets hold up (they take care of things better, if they know they own part of them!). When he leaves, he is free to sell his "percentage" to the next guy (which he will never do because he will simply stay to get the higher bonuses). If he does leave for a bonafide reason and agrees to not compete with you, then offer to buy back his "percentage" at a fair value based on what the assets are really then worth. You do this on the monthly payment basis which insures he is not competing with you! Nothing beats cash rewards for work well done! Some guys "buy the beer" on Friday nite, but I would recommend simply paying out a business bonus, instead and keeping it all business. The respect gained is much better. If he does leave for a bonafide reason and you have to pay him for his "percentage" ownership, it is deferred wages and can be negotiated. How many times did you ever negotiate for your wages as an employee? It simply makes more sense to stay put, if the money is right! If you want loyalty from an employee, you simply have to pay for it! Loyalty is never an implied transaction from the employee's point of view. To make a long story short, it shows that you must invest in your employees, just like you do in the rest of your business. Whether it's equipment, an employee or a partner, if you invest wisely, your effort will pay off.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wow, some very sage advice on this thread. I would love to find a partner or managing partner so I could go on an "extended vacation". Heck, I'd sell right now at a *real* good deal. Summer is coming and Alaska is calling!
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Partner? How would that work? As a Buy-in? Incentives?
I am 44, married, 2 kids, never owned my own shop. I worked for the last boss 9 years, gave him my all, and he got brain cancer and is out of business. We got along, and for the entire 9 years tried to get people in to help me, but none panned out because they couldn't get along or do enough for "him". (I'm really easy-going and a FAST worker.) Taking over his business wasn't an option, you have to know my old boss.
I do it all, gold leaf to vinyl, airbrushing, cartooning, hand lettering, some pinstriping, vehicle graphics. I would LOVE to find another shop to work for, but the economics of Buffalo are just to TERRIBLE! I have a 3 story, 3,000 sq. foot Victorian I can't sell for what I owe, $56,000.
So what is a guy like me worth? Right now, I am struggleing by, doing occasional custom art on Harleys, and working 10-15 hours a week for a buddy, who also is struggling and trying to decide whether or not to stay in Buffalo, NY.
If you want, you can see my work at www.hotairbrush.com. This has been more of a hobby than a career. (airbrushing) as there is very little work in Western New York.
ANY input/thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Thanks all and good luck to everyone out there.
Posts: 10 | From: Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Jan 2002
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I can vouch that Bruce Rosier is really talented. He is reliable, honest, and easy to work with. His old boss, a guy I used to subcontract for, spoke highly of him.
He would make an excellent addition to your shop.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Actually, I was not replying to Ricky, Specifically, but anyone out there! I just read Ricky's post above me, and saw he mentioned looking for a partner, and I said at the beginning of my post, "Partner?" I was looking for feedback from Anyone, as I truly have no idea what the market out there is like. There are so many sign shops out there now being run by out-of-work insurance agents, car salesmen, auto workers, etc, that the local sign supply shops are complaining that they are getting to many phone calls from shops asking "I cut the vinyl, now what do I stick it to?" Sad, but true.
As for Ricky or anyone else out there, I would be more than willing to talk shop, and employment possibilities!
Thanks to all.
Posts: 10 | From: Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Jan 2002
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Now, unless there is absolutely nothing going on, we let the machine get it. I also really avoid giving out our cell number, I don't think more than five customers have that one and you can bet these are the best, "well trained" customers.
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. . just kiddin' . . . . . . .kind'a . . .
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@ Jim . . .
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