posted
The "craft" is always changing and evolving. I wish I had the hand lettering skills that I so admire - I also wish I had a thousand other skills.
I still feel I am worthy of sharing the wisdom passed down from the "Keepers of the Craft" and unless it is solely about hand lettering, perhaps in the true light of letterheads I too may have something worthy of sharing.
There is no doubt in my mind that hand lettering is far more exquisite than vinyl, but you have to admit computers allow for the tweaking that makes an excellent design.
Progress is not always progress, and I hope the art of hand lettering does not die, but I also hope you will allow me to share in some of the other wonders of the field.
Especially the glass/gold leaf branch.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Brushes everyday, for 95% of everything! ( not that the computer is a BAD thing-Just let it enhance your skills-not limit them) Did a van ,last week all vinyl ( previously a Painted van customer, but this one is leased) No fonts out there to match the previous vehicles so a half hour black on white( hand lettered) of the relevant bits for my vinyl cuttin' friend to scan and cut and job done)
posted
Hi Rob, good to see you're still in the land of the living! Brushes, spraygun, plotter & airbrush...all get used with varying intensities from week to week.
One day I hope to do work as nice as some of yours- as dave Drane says, I've also driven around Bundy & admired the nice signs you've done, (and wished I had my camera on me at the time too!)
I just did an airbrushed portrait last night for a friend who turned 60 today. I'll post a piccie in a few days. As vinyl becomes more common, brush & handwork becomes more appreciated by some...
Best wishes & keep in touch!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I’ve said before the biggest reason I gave up using my brushes is because of the changes to lettering paint. Have the same changes taken place with lettering paint in Australia?
I can see how the computer age doesn’t lend itself to those that do pictorial stuff as easily as those of us that don’t.
A friend of mine in the sign biz made a comment to me that the computer use in the lettering biz was right up my alley…because I’m such an anal perfectionist, the preciseness the computer brings to the mix works well for me.
When I ventured into in house vinyl production I got the same satisfaction I used to get from hand lettering in terms of producing lettering that was designed and executed to standards above what most of the vinyl jockeys around me was doing.
I still enjoy it when someone looks at something I done and because the norm is for vinyl to look nasty they are somewhat impressed that nice lettering can be done with vinyl.
Depending on the type of work you’re doing I would have to disagree that you can make better money with paint. I’m definitely making money easier now than back with paint.
I will admit at times I miss doing a nice bevel edged, faded; airbrush job that I well know is capable of being done on the puter and printed. I just haven’t ventured that far into the computer end of things yet.
For now I’m happy being able to keep the family feed and what not, while most generally being satisfied creatively with what I produce ultimately with my mind.
When the scarce time comes (maybe once or twice a year) that I touch my brushes, I honestly feel that I prefer to produce lettering the computer way. Maybe it’s because as I mentioned above I like the precision part of it, but I also think most work can be done easier and faster with vinyl, and less hassle.
As for the misdirection of the spirit of letterheads I think it’s right on track…you can come here and learn, teach, or share just as always…and just as always…there will always be conflict and a difference in opinions…just like in the real world…wait a minute…this isn’t the real world…
Jeff
-------------------- Jeff's Lettering Lisa,Luke,Dara, and Jeff Spradling 5742 Shattuck Rd. Belvidere, Il. 61008 815-544-0167
Surviving another day. Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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I painted 2 panels at the Edgehead meet yesterday! Does that count? (I kinda felt like a freak too, but it was a nice get-together) Love.....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Hey Stephen or do you prefer to be called Geet? Anyway I remember ole Rey Guise from the San Jose area, Never really got to know him real well, spoke to him once or twice. I was reading some of the articles where he met up with Hollingsworth. He was also an old sign painter, him I remember because he was about 6-1 or 2, tall guy to me around that time he was in his 80's but still climbing ladders and carrying planks to do his wall jobs. Rey was known for his gold leaf work, and always signed his name on all of his jobs. Yeah life as the sign painter is becoming a true art, now people want to collect all the old hand painted stuff!!
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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The vinyl plotter is there for the "quickie" jobs, but the better money and more challenging work comes in and the customers are predominantly looking for paint work.
But in either case, strong design skils are still your best weapon.
my 2 cents... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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i hesitated as I logged on, fully expecting to have started a fire, and fully expecting some criticism for my provocative comments.........well, apart from Kissy' telling me not to slam the door on my way out, God bless ya girl, I laughed and laughed, What I got was mostly encouragement, especially from my Aussie compatriots, bless you guys all as well, we will catch up soon. The most important thing I found in reading the replies to my post was "PASSION" passion for this "game" that I wrongly thought was being lost, no, It is alive n kickin, you guys are the ones keeping it there, i am the one who needs to get my ars into gear. I am, but I am taking a different tack, I have begun to study under a great calligraphy artist by the name of Dave Wood, his work is truly inspirational and there aint no dang 'puter to be seen. The thing i like about this quiet and simple craft is that the work is about bringing beautiful words to life, ancient wisdoms, wise sayings, quotable quotes, positive affirmations, poems etc, in fact, much of the work is framed and will be admired respected and appreciated for generations instead of just till the next owner takes over and paints the whole thing out without a second thought.
It has stirred my blood, i LOVE IT and cant wait to be able to go full time. I am learning all over again, wow, and under a true master, Yes our craft lives on, even if this apprentice is pushin 50!!
Good on you all, yes, the spirit of Letterheads is alive n well in whatever guise it takes.
Thanks everyone
Rob
-------------------- Rob Clark Rob Clark Design 11 Lassig st Moore Park Queensland Australia 0741598092 Posts: 421 | From: Australia | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Please post your caligraphy as you get samples! Pen or brush?
-------------------- Catharine C. Kennedy CCK Graphics 1511 Route 28 Chatham Center, NY 12184 cck1620@taconic.net "Look at me, Look at me, Look at me now! I't's fun to have fun, But you have to know how!" Posts: 2173 | From: downtown Chatham Center, NY | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I still use brushes, and long for the days before vinyl lettering, because I think my profit margin was greater and my overhead was lower. I also like to push paint around. I like the smoothness of it. I like the smell in the morning with a cup of coffee nearby.
Rob, you wouldn't be on this site; however, if you didn't have at least a computer, so therefore you have at least embraced some up-to-date technology.
I decided to go with the flow, because I saw benefits of doing so, and in our area, customers liked some of the advantages of vinyl lettering. I don't think it hurts to do both unless you work hard to carve out a niche in the marketplace and stick with just hand painted work as some have mentioned you'll probably have more work by doing both. It's a choice based both on necessity and desire.
It's hard to talk on this board about hand lettering compared to computer work; though, I've noticed -- since tips and tricks for computers are easily described via the board, and tips and tricks for hand done work is better witnessed live like at a letterhead event. I seemed to need letterhead events to encourage me to continue working with my brushes. I'm going to get the creative outlet I need one way or the other. Lately I've been trying to muster up the time to paint fine art paintings which is something I was trained in and enjoy.
Hey...good luck...and if I should get there before you -- save me a seat.
[ March 01, 2005, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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I noted a touch of criticism in your post. Be careful. At some point in time, I'm sure signpainters that started using that new fangled pre mixed paint called One Shot were made fun of for not grinding their own pigment, boiling the raw linseed oil, then mixing in the lead, oils and various other chemicals themselves. Like others have said in this thread, you can't stop evolution.
I started with the computer, because I could start making a living now instead of apprenticing for 5 years first. (Actually now was like 15 years ago, and who would I aprentice under? I could not move to accomplish this.)
I have brushes and am trying to learn. The little I hand letter I love and will continue, but I don't think you should knock people that use tools other than lettering quills.
Keepers of the craft... our creedo. When did craft mean hand lettering. How about glue chipped glass, gilding and angel gilding, sandblasting, carving.
The most important part of our craft in my opinion is design. A good design person will be a good sign person. You put in crap you get crap.
As far as this being tech-ville or what ever you called it, a brush doesn't break down, start doing weird things all by itself, or have a lot of accessories to interact with. Computers have the most problems and will be the focus of conversation here.
The Letterhead meets are keeping the craft alive and well. Don't worry.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I feel your pain and frustration Rob. Hand lettering types were once sorta special and we all like to feel special. Like a musician, we worked hard to develop a skill that very few others could do in a professional manner.
Times change. Somewhere out there, an old pony express rider and his pony are cursing the automobile.
The original Letterheads embraced the best of our past, but they were never against learning new technology or making a buck. Those still in the business today have all the latest toys.
Here in Letterville, we continue to do what we did 10 years ago. We're still pressuring visitors to learn more about Letterheads and get to that first meet. We're pleased to say that many of today's meets are directly linked to Letterheads involved in this online community.
Those that are passionate about the benefits of using brush and paint need to stop bitchin' and get more involved. Step forward from the crowd and organize a Letterhead group in your area. Think of new ways to use Letterville to educate today's new signmakers. Traditional hand lettering is still a wonderful skill to develop.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Rob, from the initial post being self-described as "pickin' a fight" to the predictions of "defensiveness" from those 'heads lacking brush skills... (you don't mind if I refer to us as letterheads do you) I almost feel an apology is in order for the let-down when you logged on "fully expecting to have started a fire"
I think you will find however, that the letterheads (those on this site anyway) who do not hand letter are quite respectful of the craftsmen who paved the way ahead of our entrance into this trade. The sad thing is when traditional sign painters are not respectful of the new breed of Letterheads. Just as there had to have always been the corner-cutting hack-job painters at the bottom of the barrel... there are an abundance of vinyl jockies who don't command much respect for there contributions (or lack thereof) ... but those are not the sort easily found on this site.
If you want to see a fire burn out of control... get a newbie to post something derogotory about hand lettering... but when a seasoned, proven & respected signwriter like yourself needs to rant about the good old days, that fire just burns out because it's just not the inflammatory topic you thought it might be... it is an easily understood fact of life.
Point of observation: most of us who weren't painting 20 years ago, were doing something else worthy & whatever that was, it has probably also been changed over time... not completely lost, & maybe in some small ways improved... but we all have our own "good old days" to mourn.. not just signwriters.
So I think your post strikes a chord with everyone, instead of striking a nerve.
posted
When you sit down and think of it, we wouldnt have all these nice typestyles if it werent for hand letterers would we. Most every font you can buy today started out as a hand lettered font and are still used that way. I hand lettered a 4' by 12 sign yesterday in the comfort of my shop. Felt good again, and I needed the stress relief.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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In addition to some of the points raised, had it not been for the vinyl revolution, I doubt we would have appreciated our own skills in the same way we do now. While writing a shop fascia last summer, from start to finish, I had an enthusiastic audience clustered round the scaffold, there were old men genuinely thrilled to watch it being done the old way again, and children on their way to school who’d never seen it done the old way and thought I was doing it a completely new way! In the old days it would have been just another day and all the remarks about steady hands and booze would have been an irritant. As it was, I had a marvellous time, felt fully appreciated and could almost have finished the job without the aid of scaffold.
-------------------- Arthur Vanson Bucks Signs Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England arthur@buckssigns.co.uk -------------------- Posts: 805 | From: Chesham, Bucks, England | Registered: Mar 2002
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No vinyl here....ALL custom paint....only brushes and airbrushes. I don't even have the 1st clue about plotters and all that. Itsa brush or nuthin with me.
-------------------- Kristie Byrnes Paintbrush Graphics 6126 Big Cut Rd. Mt. Carroll, IL 61053 rugbyrnes@hotmail.com (563) 357-7614 Posts: 90 | From: Thomson,IL | Registered: Dec 2002
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Heheheheeeeee ... I love computers and vinyl !!!
Ther pain in the a** price shoppers can haggle with the "quickie" shops ... but ... with so few of us hand letters left in my area ... when someone wants/needs a hand lettered sign, there is no haggling!
We 'brushies" now command a premium price for our work!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Si, That's exactly right ...I have said many times when people suggest that the 'vinyl' industry & technology is going to overtake hand work . . .
"No, it's just the opposite...customers now view hand-work as that much more unique, and appealing to 'eccentric' taste and now specifically request..'I want it HAND-painted please'..."
I like bein' able to do vinyl for the ol' regular for sale signs and stuff because I realize it's freein' up more time for me to paint custom stuff!!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
what would a signpainter do if he forgot his mahlstick? Forget he ever had to use such a lame crutch. You don't need it-you use your pinkie finger as a guide and get embarassed if anyone reminds you that you ever used a silly stick as a crutch. A proper signpainter has no need of this amateur superstition
-------------------- jim gunn jim gunn signs &designs 3474 sandwich st windsor, ont canada jimgunnsigns@yahoo.ca Posts: 4 | From: windsor ontario canada | Registered: Jan 2006
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what would a signpainter do if he forgot his mahlstick? Forget he ever had to use such a lame crutch. You don't need it-you use your pinkie finger as a guide and get embarassed if anyone reminds you that you ever used a silly stick as a crutch. A proper signpainter has no need of this amateur superstition
-------------------- jim gunn jim gunn signs &designs 3474 sandwich st windsor, ont canada jimgunnsigns@yahoo.ca Posts: 4 | From: windsor ontario canada | Registered: Jan 2006
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And here I was, thinking Rob Clarke had come back in 2006- where are you Rob! (When I'm out of inspiration, I dig out some photos I have of his work...)
(BTW Alphonse... but that's not your name I remember now(!)...anyway to call signwriting a 'game' is aussie idiom for the trade. It's a humourous way of saying you enjoy your work...sort of.)
PS- yes, still using brushes a plenty- I detest the sacks of waste from vinyl and will still brush if I have a bit of spare time. Nothing's changed for me since that post ages ago except more airbrushing, more screen printing, some digital printing, but roughly the same amount of brush & vinyl, and I think our designs have improved a lot since those days.
[ January 26, 2006, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Ian Stewart-Koster ]
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Gday Rob, glad to know you are still pulling a brush. I piked from the trade myself for the easy money but I still enjoy he odd ski boat or fun job. Got any new/fun jobs on the boil around Bundy? David
-------------------- David Fisher D.A. & P.M. Fisher Services Brisbane Australia da_pmf@yahoo.com Trying out a new tag: "Parents are the bones on which children cut their teeth Peter Ustinov Posts: 1450 | From: Brisbane Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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iam usin my brushes yesterday and today....learnin how to paint with URATHANE automotive paints......looks like its the next good paint......
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I recognize that most jobs are vinyl now because it is wanted this way. The clients want cheap and some of us choose to respond to this even if no one HAS to... it's a question of demand.
Are we producing cheap signs because of demand or is there demand because we're willing to do it ???
I leave this one to each individual... personally, I don't even own a plotter (anymore), and this is MY CHOICE !
My work concists of carved signs that are all hand painted. The one roll of vinyl I own is for making masks that I hand cut just like the rubber masks. I do work with computers and I have a 4 x 8 CNC table, but sorry no cheap signs here, I don't even waste time trying.
What was the question again ??? oh yeah brushes, sure... I use them all the time.
posted
Welcome to Letterville Jim. One of my mentors is from Essex, Ontario.
It's always interesting to see these old posts brought back. I haven't heard that old maulstick debate in many years. How do you new guys rediscover these old posts?
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
To Jim Gunn It is sad and insulting to the memory of many a great signwriter to say what you say about the mahl stick being a crutch. You obviously don't understand the proper usage of a mahl stick and obviously have never watched a true signwriter use one. I never could master it, but I watched in awe what some of the early signwriters could do with a mahlstick. I can't explain how it is used properly, you have to watch a master use one before you can understand. I always try to remain civil, but you, sir, are an arrogant man.
-------------------- Bob Nugent Hotrodsonline.com Gainesville, GA 30506 hotrod@hotrodsonline.com Posts: 46 | From: Gainesville, Georgia | Registered: Mar 2003
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I agree with Mr. Nugent (are you related to Ted).
Mr Gunn, you "pinky painters" have know reason to bash any method of slinging a brush. In all the years that I have been around this, I have only seen 2 or 3 "pinky painters" that could "wip" a corner like someone who used a mahl or hand over hand technique. If you are a pinhead, then thats a different animal. But lettering is not. If you are one of the few that can letter that way with the same quality as the rest, then kudos. But that still does not give you the right to bash the rest of us now does it.
Arrogant is not the word I believe I would have used.
-------------------- Snow's Sign Works 865-908-0076 snowman@planetc.com www.snowsigns.com
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... Posts: 1640 | From: Sevierville, TN | Registered: Jul 2005
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What about us folks who don't use anything? I only carry a mahl stick on jobs or to meets where I want to "look" like a sign painter. I don't use a pinky, or hand-over hand. Ask anyone who's seen me paint. My best signs are painted upside-down too. (not me, the panels) I like looking like a freak! Love.....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I was hand lettering 12 years BC (before computers). I still treasure my brushes and keep them in good shape. I have one that Al Grand gave me about 15 years ago that he said was at least 30 years old; it's still in very good shape. I've got sets of quills in brown and grey by Langnigger, Percy Baker and Grumbegger I've got liners, stripers, bulletin stroke fitches, blending fitches, an Alton Gilespie "stealth brush", and probably some others. I still get a woodie by walking into a grungy, disorganized sign shop and smelling lettering enamel - especially if it's been thinned with Edge. I don't get calls for hand lettering much anymore but I never turn down an opportunity. I keep up my skills at meets much more than here. I'm as big a techno-junkie as anybody here but I readily admit that there is nothing like the satisfaction you get from hand lettering.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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you sure have a way with words!
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