posted
ORACAL 751 OR 851 GOOD MOJO....651ORA-CRAP...!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Sorry to say Joe, I use 651 every day for something and it aint crap. You bought any lately? Its got a 6yr minimum on it now. You still using Ameribans crap?
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
no john...and untill it dont feel and sound like bubble wrap plastic packaging....i wont! i bought 2 rolls of 3M intermediate....and i like the feel of it and it was only $2 more for a 24x50 yard then the 651 PRICE. give it a shot....then you will see what iam saying.... as for the BANNERCAL...yep still use it(ecept fot the red, its total crap) and SHINE RITE...great for baseball and coro signs....that anit gota last more then a year.
[ February 20, 2005, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
My favorite vinyl is Gregory's Trendfilm premium grade 6500 series..It simply lasts longer than they even claim. . . .they also have 3M.
You can tell an amazing difference in the 'feel' of that vinyl compared to Oracal 651 & 751. . . Interestingly enough, OP is right about this...the Oracal 651 AND the 751 feels like 'stiff', brittle plastic . . .like cheap intermediate vinyl.
Another unusual trait of the Oracal...after you weed & apply the material...I notice very, very slight 'raised' edges on all the copy. To get it to lay down flat would mean burnishing the edge if every single letter! I never see this with Trendfilm or the 3M material I cut on my plotter so I know it's the material, not the plotter.
The reason I have been ordering and using the Oracal 651 & 751 though, is the HUGE difference in shipping costs between Gregory & Aluma-Panel on overnight shipping. . .also Gregory started this '$50' minimum order thing about 2 years ago . . .no matter how much money you spend with them every year...even if your order comes to $47.99 you'll need to add something else to get it over $50...
Now, Gregory's new catalogue shows the new vinyl additions...Oracal . . . AND Avery?
I've had a coupl'a people tell me the Oracal holds up well. I sure do hope so.
I'm gonna make a panel using both, and hang it on the sunny side of the shop to moniter it every few months . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
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"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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lol Gonzalo...ya better get to sellin' some signs....
BTW...who is 'everyone'?? I think 'everyone' would agree we need different vinyl for different jobs...you would'nt really need to put the best grade vinyl on that temp. sign or banner that will only be used for a week or 6 months and trashed . . .but you want the premium grade stuff for the high end signs . . .
Also, some brands may not have some certain, unique colour you need . . .
I've had vinyl peices around for ages since I nearly always hand-cut my logos on vinyl jobs . . .now that the plotter is goin'... I'm buying more roll quantity...most of the rolls I'm getting are various colours...but only 20 to 30 yards of each. . . .I ordered basic colours like black, saphire blue, red, white and 2 shades of hunter green.
I'm also ordering other colours as I sell jobs . . .with overnight or even 2 day delivery available . . .ordering material when I sell a job is no problem and I go ahead and get 20 or 30 yards of it so I can build my inventory up slowly rather than trying to order a bunch'a material at one time that may never get used . . .
I may have the perfect hunter green in 5-6 year vinyl....but if it's a high end job . . .I order the premium 8-10 year grade to fill the need.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Well paint makes up for 80% of my work, as long as most people agree 751 is a good pruduct I will stick with it. I generally don't do much intermediate stuff and for what little (very little) I do I have 4 colors for that red white blue & black.. I too like to order an extra roll or two of another color to build up my inventory. and would really hate to here the comments I read about Avery be said about 751.. and would really hate to switch brands now.. Everyone= people I've spoke to about intermixing vinyl...thanks everyone !!! And I hope I made no spelling mistakes..LOL
-------------------- Gonzalo Curiel Peewee Signs & designs Oroville Ca 95965
posted
Gonzalo - just a note: Oracal 751 is NOT a premium CAST vinyl....although it's characteristics come closer to that ideal...
For the minimal price difference....you'd be better advised to buy REAL cast vinyl such as 3M, or some of the other makers offer.
Also be advised: I think many don't understand that several brand name vinyls actually use Avery, and just brand name it under their name....SparCal was a good example of this....
So do some research or you may end up with the exact vinyl you were trying to avoid.
How is that Avery thing shaking out by the way? Are they past the problems yet?
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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OP - I actually agree with you on part of your post...imagine that!
I find Oracal 651 to be far more difficult in weedability and cutting than some other brands for calendared vinyl....however, I do use their 651 White for Gerber stuff as it seems to take a print well....Personal preference I suppose, as well as cutting idiosyncrasies of different plotters and blades?
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I agree with the personal preferences quote.
Of the 150-ish assorted rolls of vinyl currently in my "collection", a vast majority of it is...Avery and 651.
Never had a redo due to quality issues.
Go figure
-------------------- Pete Sharkins MotoArts Decals and Signs New Kensington, PA motoarts@yahoo.com * All vinyl, all the time * Posts: 138 | From: New Kensington, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Pete - I never had a "redo" either...but just personally experienced a lot of frustration with inconsistant cutting and weeding with 651.....some colors tended to be worse than others....
Yep, personal preference is that I just don't care for what I perceive as an excessively "crinkly" brittle feeling vinyl....but that's just me.
Avery on the other hand - I have had very good luck with...although I know many others have experienced problems of late with it....
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Just to let you know, my distributor told me last Friday that Oracal 751 will be replacing Oracal 851 and will become "cast" vinyl. She said that Oracal will be dropping the 851 series.
I've not had any independent verification of this yet.
posted
Joe, Ive used the 3m intermediate. DIdnt like it at all. Different strokes.... As far as lastability, 651 will outlast some cast vinyls on the market. Ive stuck with it since it came out, and havent had any problems. Not like, you know, that Avery stuff that everyone swore by so much. Hint Hint. Its just what you get used to and like to use, and what works for you. Oracals vinyls work for me. I use Oracal 651 and 851. Dont intend to quit any time soon.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Just my 2 cents. We have used 751 for the last 4 years and the only failure we have had is metallic gold. We find 851 to be a great vinyl.
-------------------- Johnny Taylor All About Signs Ltd New Zealand www.allaboutsigns.co.nz Posts: 13 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2004
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isnt that funny, I use AVERY and love the stuff and since they did take care of my problems in a very good and reasonable fashion, I will continue to use it.
On the other hand I can only comment on 3m and tell you that I have had problems with their reflective in the past, with no solution from 3m themselves.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
the 751 & 851 are both PREMIUM CAST VINYLS...the 851 was brought out with an 8 year life....and the 751 was only 7 i now it is rated as 8 year. i like both of these, totally different product then 651.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I use 751 for my long term signs and 651 for my short term stuff and have had no problem. To me vinyl lettering will out last the painted enamel background as it fades due to the weather so if a sign lasts seven years plus the customer has got there moneys worth especialy if it faces full sun all year round.
-------------------- Mark Stokes Mark Stokes Signs Mount Barker South Australia Posts: 388 | From: Mount Barker | Registered: Jan 2005
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John...I'm just curious...what's the oldest exterior sign (or vehicle) that you've done out there that's wearing 651..in the sun?
How is it wearing..I mean...what seems to break down first? Is it a material that lifts and curls on the edges?? Or does it seem to start fading and getting hairline cracks?? I wonder if Kentucky's weather is comparable to the deep south . . . ....I'm really wantin' to know what to expect in the next 5-7 years . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
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"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Shelia, I did a vehicle (coal truck) with 651 five years ago, and it still looks as good as the day I did it. No shrinkage, no peeling, etc. I actually did it as an experiment, knowing full well if it failed, I would have to replace the job. I also have a couple mdo signs that I did that I used 651 on that have been out 4 years in the sun, with no shrinkage, no peeling, etc. And actually, this was before Oracal put a 6 year minimum on their 651. OP does have one thing right though. It is not an extremely pliable vinyl like 851 or 3m hp, but I have no problems with weeding, even small copy, or adhesion, especially to signs painted with acrylic backgrounds. Ive also got several signs that I did over five years ago with 751 red, that are still in great shape. I used whitewood for the signs which has a pvc glossy face, so the vinyl really stuck good. It has not faded at all. Ive had great results with Oracal 651 and 751, 851. Its good vinyl.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Use what you have - if you like it and it works for you. We all have our preferences, and this place is never going to agree on one or the other. Why not get in touch with the sales reps from the different companies and tell them you are shopping around for which brand to be loyal too. They should be happy to send you a couple of yards of each of thier lines so you can try them out. If they aren't - I'd be wondering about customer service down the road. Then sit down some day and see which fits you best.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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851:10 year premium cast film Ultral high gloss, superior conformability High durability in extreme conditions Thermal Print compatible 2mil
751:8 year premium calendered film Ultra gloss, renowned performance and conformability Demanding Durability requirements Thermal print compatible 2mil
651:6 year intermediate film High gloss. Medium term durable applications Extended indoor applications Thermal print compatible 2.5 mil
All three are clear solvent based permanent acrylic.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Yeh I know John . . it's right there on back of the colour samp. catalogue too . . .
but that really means so little to me compared to how it ACTUALLY WORKS everyday in a practical enviroment on a variety of substrates, in 100 different temps . . .
It's like anything that gets re-called . . . "OH...but it was tested in THIS area, and THAT area, under THIS stress & THAT stress, and by THESE people, and THOSE people . . .but consumer number 275,985,651 million found another way to use it and now everyone's usin' it that way, 'cause that's what it's really good for...BUT under THAT situation..the product fails . . ."
So...back to the drawing board the inventor goes...to re-invent a better product that the consumers discovered it's best use for . . .
LOL . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
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"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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I'm with John on this one,(My Opinion). I have to give oracal their credit. I use 651 & 851. The 751 "calendered" seems to be too close to the 651, but more expensive. I've had great luck with the 651 calendered lasting longer than I need it to last. I use the 851 when I need HP vinyl with great results. I was told by my supplier that the 751 was going to be phased out.
[ February 22, 2005, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Tom Bahr ]
-------------------- Tom Bahr Custom Signs of St. Cloud, Inc. St. Cloud, MN 320-255-0588 tbahr@astound.net Posts: 71 | From: St. Cloud, MN | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I use 651 nearly every day. I especially like the fact that the white comes on a blue liner, easier to see what you are weeding. Love....jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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i get it....but just dont like workin with bubble wrap....as for price 651 aint that inexpensive. SHINE RITE IS CHEAPER, LOOKS AS GOOD AND IS MORE PLYABLE. 3M intermediate cost only a couple bucks more....per roll and its a way better product. avery had problems with their HIGH PERFORMANCE VINYL not the A6!!! again i will say the 851 ORACAL IS GREAT STUFF....i knows what i knows....no 651 WILL EVER RESIDE ON MY SHELF...as long as there are better products out there.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Jillbeans: I use 651 nearly every day. I especially like the fact that the white comes on a blue liner, easier to see what you are weeding. Love....jill
me too jill!! i also love 751 amazing to use in the contours of most vehicles..does the same as cast!!
Nik
-------------------- Nicola Rowlands RGS Signs & Screenprinting Reval Green Finavon By Forfar Angus scotland 01307 850 260
'learn from the mistakes of others..you can't live long enough to make them yourself' Posts: 108 | From: scotland | Registered: Jan 2005
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A pic of the latest roll of 751 we have. We are told by our supplier all of the 751 will be cast in the coming months.
-------------------- Johnny Taylor All About Signs Ltd New Zealand www.allaboutsigns.co.nz Posts: 13 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2004
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