posted
If you are planning a Walldog meet, do you have insurance for the meet? If not, you should have. Consider this -- there has not (to my knowledge) ever been a meet where someone has taken a fall from ladders or scaffolds. As a group we've been lucky. But with each additional meet the likelyhood that an accident will occur grows. What a damper it would put on these meets if an attendee were to have a fall that leaves them paralyzed for life.
I have personally been side by side with workers who have stumbled, slipped and otherwise had close calls. I'm sure you can think of some yourself. I've also seen people take foolish chances. At one meet, an attendee stood on the very top rung of a ladder jack and reach way over the edge -- just to hold a snap line. I told him it wasn't a very smart thing to do, and he informed me -- he did it all the time. There will be a day where he will reach too far.
Some of the meets in the past have had no insurance, because it was assumed that each walldog had commercial insurance coverage of their own to cover them at the meet. There has been a few meets where waivers needed to be signed in order to work. However behind closed doors it has been speculated that these signed waivers weren't worth the paper their written on in an ordinary court of law. And even if they were, the fact that a walldog would bring suit against a meet host would surely mean the hosts would have to secure council at their expense. That should not be the case for someone donating at least some of their time, effort and talents while benefitting communities.
At Atlanta, IL we were able to become employees of the town for the duration of the meet and be covered under the town's workman's compensation insurance coverage. While trying to get a meet going in Pontiac, IL we have not had that success. Each town has insurance carriers who offer different coverage, so you need to be aware of this.
It seems absurd that when you are just donating your talents in behalf of something beneficial that you would have to worry about something bad happening. But the odds are going up with each meet that something will happen. Lifts with harnesses, hard hats and safety glasses should be provided. As walldogs we need to seek out safe and secure staging, act like we know what we're doing, demand communities provide first class staging or don't have a meet.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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You know Bill, you bring up a very valid point. I have fallen before, fractured my wrist and had to wear a cast. No fun at all. I think Jeff Ogden can verify how we did in Lincoln with the scaffold we had. We spent almost more time setting it up and making if level by cutting pieces of wood for the bottom, and using good ole duct tape to hold the cross members in place. I laugh about it now, i'm sure him and Dale are smiling about that one too. I was at ease because I knew they had expeience, not that nothin can happen to a person with experience, but under the circumstances 'communication' plays a big role. Actually even if equipment is working fine or un defective communication should be used. I know this (insurance) will play a major role in having more Walldog Meets. But who knows maybe there is a carrier who will give a hell of a deal for a large group, then divide it among the Letterheads who will be painting up a town or a city. From what you say, a signed waiver is not valid? Or does it have to be 'notarized' to make it worth something?
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Cisco, here's an example of what I'm talking about. I drew a stick figure on the left side of that scaffold to illustrate about where that guy stood to snap a line. When we arrived here, the community had provided the scaffold which was on wheels on a slightly sloped drive way.
I made them take off the wheels and anchor the scaffold to the wall, before I would work on it, but there were others there that would have been willing to work on it anyway, and that's what I'm talking about.
I don't know about group insurance, but then again that makes this thing more like an organization, than most heads are not willing to participate in.
I would be interested in any other thoughts.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Hi Bill:Your right of coarse and I just went through a 8 hour fall arrest coarse.We have to have a harness on over ten feet and be tied to something as heavy as a small car.In Ontario you can be fined up to $25,000.00 and the corp.up to $250,000.00.Too many people taking chances and costing way to much for medical bills.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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Cisco, not sure what notorization means everywhere, I think it's a word that has any many different meaning and functions as there are states that have notaries. In Pa, notorization merely means the notary is certifying that the signature on the form is the actual signature of the actual person. Usually that they got photo ID & witnessed the person sign it. The notary here has nothing to do with saying whether the paper is valid or legal, that would be up to a lawyer.
Bill, very good points you brought up. I have heard some hosts have had a heck of a time finding insurance for a meet or rather educating the insurance people about meets. I know the first person I talked to at my insurance agency when I went for business insurance asked "what do you mean you make signs"? I guess she thought all the signs in the world were delivered at night by the sign-fairy.
If it's that difficult to explain a meet to an insurance person, imagine trying to explain it to an OSHA person who stumbled across the meet and woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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We went through about 10 mos. worth of meetings for the 2nd Atlanta, IL meet when the town's group representing Atlanta told us their might be a problem with the insurance. After calling my insurance carrier he said that he didn't know of any one of his companies that could under write a 4 day event, and it all happen to hinge on the fact that people would be using ladders, scaffolds and lifts.
They suggested we get group insurance which would cause us to have to organize -- just for a 4 day event. We reminded them that they had told us we would be covered under their policies. This promise was made at the first meeting when it came up. They assumed without really checking. Hell brochures had been sent and everything.
I told them that without insurance there would be no meet. That kind of scared them, because they had put in a lot of time and had made promises to town's folk. They were surprised that I would cancel the meet -- but I wasn't feeling lucky, and I thought if they really want these signs and murals we planned, they better find a way, and that's when they looked into the workman's comp.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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The person who I designated to purchase insurance for the Mars meet waited until the last possible moment. The boro had specified that I must have insurance. It was the year of 9-11, and event insurance was hard to come by. A gal who organizes dog shows gave me the number of a California insurance agency who provides for events. When they heard that the event encompassd an entire town, they said NO. We eventually got insurance the day before the meet. It only covered the PEOPLE who came to watch. There were waivers printed for those who were on scaffolding, but to the best of my limited memory of the meet, they were not handed out by the guy who obtained the insurance. It cost $1500 for 3 days, and I suppose it was better than nothing. I'd never have a wall meet again, too hard to find adequate coverage. Love.....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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That stickman looks familiar. I subcontracted to a billboard painter for a few months that did stuff like that, and even crazier.
My last day with him, we had to cut the Marlboro man off the top of a sign for a new advertiser. The catwalk was 80 foot off the ground, I held the ladder while he climbed to the top, straddled the sign and cut the extender off with a chainsaw. No safty lines or anything at all. I just looked up at this fool and decided that would be the last of that.
posted
That's my point, Dave. We've all taken huge chances and some day our luck is going to run out. At this point I have more questions than answers, but the meet we had planned for Pontiac, IL has been put on hold until this can be figured out. I'm encouraging others planning on having Walldog meets to be aware of potential problems.
Just because things were done a certain way at Walldog events in the past, doesn't mean they were done correctly. This holds true for the one I organized. Sometimes when plans are made and people have set aside time to attend, you, as a host are reluctant to demand these necessary safeguards. I can understand that. I was there. Promises are made. The wheels are in motion, but historically just about every disaster has these same elements. It's a wake up call -- that's all.
The unfortunate thing is we are all trying to do good things and enjoy the fellowship and sharing that has made the Letterhead experience so rewarding, but in the quest for all that, if we don't take the necessary precautions, an accident is going to happen, and fingers will point trying to find a scapegoat. I know I don't want a life threatening or career ending injury to be my fault just because I was trying save a community some money. The communities are going to have to take responsibility too and beware of the potential risks.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bill- I don't know how many of us are USSC members but it seems like they could play a hand in providing some coverage through one of their sources. They have a lot of contacts and offer great benefits as a group. Might be worth checking in to.
It really seems to me that the township should provide the coverage since we're there at our expense and their benefit.
-------------------- Linda Schmidt Vital D'Signs Greers Ferry, AR signlady@ozarkisp.net Posts: 160 | From: Greers Ferry, AR | Registered: Sep 2001
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"It really seems to me that the township should provide the coverage since we're there at our expense and their benefit."
I'd have to agree with that statement for sure. I've always had a problem with the wall dog type of events. Seems like the towns benefit a whole lot out of these events with very little, if any, cost to themselves. While I think what the wall dogs do is very noble, I wonder how many other trades would do this with no more compensation than is handed out at these events. Somehow I just can't see a bunch of landscapers rolling into town one weekend, planting a bunch of trees , flowers and shrubs and basically having to pay for the priviledge of doing so.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
It's amazing how, when they were the age I am now, my parents were so ridiculously cautious!
And now, after all these years, I'm just like them!
And BTW . . . I have a sneaky suspicion that all my hair turning white is some kind of 'clue' and is somehow directly involved in my transformation towards caution!
posted
In Chemainus during their mural festival one of the artists fell from a ladder. He broke his leg. He claimed the ladder broke but I have to wonder - knowing the guy. He often was under the influence of drugs as I knew him. I would have never let him anywhere near a ladder or scaffold on my job.
He successfully sued the group hosting the mural event.
The wierd thing is the same group hired him a few years later to do more work.
I know when I go into the US to do mural work (or any other kind of work) my insurance is NOT valid. And to get a policy long enough to cover me while I am painting a mural (two weeks) will cost me $5,000.
So when I paint in the US my contract states that my client MUST provide insurance for me.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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A hard hat wouldn't have helped Linda when Bill stepped on her, Right, Linda?
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I think this post is taking a good effect on whats going to happen in the future for the WallDogs going into action. I think George hit the nail on the head by stating the Township people should take care of the insurance and also have good equipment for the painters to work from. Bill, yeah that guy was crazy standing up there to snap a line, he was very lucky not to snap his neck. I used to take risks like that, but after we get older and had a couple of falls, in my opinion I just ain't that crazy to fall again for any sign, or anybody. if we all stick together I'm sure we will figure something out...
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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George Perkins I could not agree with you more. And what a important topic this is and insurance is harder to get and slower to process after 9/11 still! Insurance companies just do not understand the nature of our craft and it does not fit into one of their standard little listings, most insurance companies have always tried to get us to agree to a printers policy...huh?
So what happens from there is the agents take it to the open market listing what you do (or intend to do) as they meaning insurance guys don't like to insure you if you have already been in the act of doing something....so all you small business owners with no insurance (and I hope there are none) when you start shopping for insurance and a business owners policy a BOP tell them you are looking into starting a business not that you are already producing work...just a side note.
So when an agent sends a request to the "open market" meaning all of the companies that take our premiums and hope that they never have to pay out because of an accident (insurance really is a big investment game that the other side is betting on winning, that we will pay in more than they pay out) so if you can find a creative way to have them send your description out to the open market the first time as if no one picks it up or the rates are outrageous (grandpa dan holy smokes!!!) most companies will not look at the revised description again because they have already looked at what you do or better yet what you are planning on doing and figure that you are revising the description to make it look like you and what you intend to do is of less risk, when they believe that what you proposed or your agent proposed is your true purpose...so inform your agent make them listen and make them represent you in a intelligent way about what we do and how we do it, and that our risks are fairly minimal if we all act and work in a professional manner...sorry for the long post just a little info from all my fights with insurance co's and finally having a neighbor who is a underwriter who taught me to do it correctly after many yrs of throwing away that hard earned cash....
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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You know we could be seeing the end of Walldogs as we know it. I have always thought workers should get paid something and their lodging, meals and entertainment provided. It's just I could never figure out how to pull it off.
Corporate sponsorships never came through and I always was honest saying, "Yeah, we are going to work and "PLAY", because I didn't want any surprises that would leave a bad taste in the mouths of the townsfolks.
But I still like the idea of gathering and taking over a town and leaving a mark. In my mind it has always been a big party and a chance to share and bond. Ideally a walldog event has a mini letterhead-pinhead event going along with the painting of murals and old fashioned signs. The ideal meet also has seminars and vendors and is approximately 5 days long. Those working on the projects for the town should be compensated while the others should pay as they always have to panel jam, attend seminars and hang out.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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