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I have a local awning company as a client. He frequently brings me Sunbrella to letter on. I hate it! Seems I don't know the "trick" to making it an easy job. I frequently have problems with the stencil bleeding. Before I simply turn away this type of work, I figure I would see if any of you have a good foolproof way of painting this fabric.
What I've tried so far.
Vinyl stencil. Intermediate and High Performance. Vinyl stencil with extra 3M Super 77 adhesive sprayed on.
I tried using a "clear" ink first to seal the stencil. Sometimes it seals. Sometimes not.
What's the best vinyl to use as a stencil? Best ink to seal with? Best ink to paint the final coat with?
I'm a screen printer, so I've been using my screen printing inks to both seal the stencil and paint the final coat. Could that be the problem? Anyone else use Nazdar screen printing inks to paint on Sunbrella? It works fine if screen printed on Sunbrella but seems to bleed like heck when painted on a stencil.
-------------------- Jim McLain McLain Studios 1203 Main Street Asbury Park, NJ 07712 jlm@mclainstudios.com Posts: 42 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Aug 2004
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Ditto on Glenn's step by step on this subject. When you are done reading that, call me. I have a few additional tricks to share. I have more sunbrella lettering under my belt imaginable. It should never be a problem again, and only make you money.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The method I've used that you don't exactly mention, is to seal the edges first, but not with clear, I have used the color of the awning for my pre-sealer & had good results. Here is a post with pics showing a similar solution, though not on Sunbrella:
In case you don't know where it is, click HERE for Glenn's step-by-step.
Have you tried to screenprint them? I made a screen 2' x 8' out of 2x4's I stapled the silk with a staple gun... no fancy routed grooves for that rope method, no complex stretching tactics, nor rabbet-dovetail-mitre corner magic, & the thing came out great, Clamp it right down on the sunbrella, make 4 or 5 passes with the squeegee, Done! (Sometimes if I need white ink on black, I would give it a day or 2 to dry & line up the screen for a second pass) I used spray adhesive to keep the film on the screen & burned it with a metal halide light, I'd just roll the light back & forth to expose both ends. Cleaning out the screen is the hard part
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I have read Glenn's step by step and other than not using the particular type of ink he used, that method did not work well for me.
I'm starting to think maybe the ink is the problem. I generally use my Nazdar 9700 series ink since I always have that in stock for my screen printing operation. Straight out of the can it is so thick that it pulls up the stencil when I roll it. If I thin it down, the thinner reacts with the vinyl and curls it thus ruining the stencil and the job.
Yes Doug, I could screen them. I have all the required equipment to make screens and print. The problem is that my awning clients can't afford my screen printing rates. The screen prints come out fabulous, but I'm not about to start giving that work away at low cost.
I just need to come up with a quick way to cut simple vinyl stencils that work. Seems the concensus above is that I should give Glenn's method another try. I'll have to buy some of that particular series of Nazdar ink and see how it goes.
-------------------- Jim McLain McLain Studios 1203 Main Street Asbury Park, NJ 07712 jlm@mclainstudios.com Posts: 42 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Aug 2004
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Use the PX series, it's thicker & maintains flexibility which you need. I wouldn't roll it, brush it with a stiff brush or foam brush from out to in as Glenn says. I'd just do the ones for people who can afford to have them come out "Fabulous" & not worry about the rest. They should be expensive.
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Having missed the website for a few days I missed your post. Just got another awning in yesterday! USE FABTAC STENCIL material, it does a good job, new version allows you to iron to seal, after practice it seems to work ok. (iron with transfer paper on) Base coat of Arylic house paint is same color as awning, or close. I do 2 coats, just me. others will say I'm wasting time and paint, I might be!? Topcoat is final color, Again I do 2 coats. It takes me about 3hrs start to finish. Oh ya, the most inportant part, I use 2 fans, one blowing each way over work to quick dry. this is also Sunbrella's advice. I do not turn fans off from right before 1st coat till I'm ready to peel. This also helps stop bleeding because paint sets faster. I try to let fans blow overnight and peel next morning. I get the FABTAC from my awning company, they order it when they order Sunbrella and I buy it off of them, good relationship! Other materials have different ways and stencil materials, make sure it's Sunbrella.
[ January 28, 2005, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Michael Latham ]
-------------------- Michael A Latham Tee's Me Shirt & Sign 16462 Jefferson Davis Highway Colonial Heights Va. 804-835-3299 signdogopie@aol.com Posts: 379 | From: Colonial Heights, Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jim, I brush with Nazdar PX series flock ink, but instead of vinyl as a mask, I use a product called Dac-Tac (It's comes like vinyl but is more like a fabric). I have done hundreds of sumbrella awning this way with great results
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Ditto to Michael Latham's post about FABTAC. it is especially made for Sunbrella and even recommended by Sundbrella. Its a no-brainer.
Follow their instructions and make your first color either clear, or (my pref) the same as the awning material. that fills any gaps. you let it dry, then paint your final color over it.
I'm not nearly as experienced as Glen, but I can use the Fabtac and it works. the only additional item i'll add is that when you're working in the field, bring some scraps of PVC or masonite or something smooth, thin, hard, flexible and unbreakable to put behind the awning to rub the stencil down onto. the material has to go between the awning ribs and the fabric (hence thin) and many awnings have curves (hence flexible) and if you drop it, you don't want it to shatter. 1/8" Sintra seems to work well for me. something cheap that i can chop up in the field with a boxcutter if i have to make it fit.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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I've already bought some Nazdar PX series ink. It will be in my shop Monday Guess I'll have to do a seal coat with a mixed color since the PX series doesn't come in clear.
As for the "Fabtac", that's something I've never heard of before. Do sign supply houses carry this stuff?
I think I have some "DacTac" around the shop. Is that basically the same as "FabTac"?
Thanks to everybody for your help!
-------------------- Jim McLain McLain Studios 1203 Main Street Asbury Park, NJ 07712 jlm@mclainstudios.com Posts: 42 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Aug 2004
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Yes - the answers are coming in. Fabtac works well. But I prefer DacEZ (Advertising Ideas sells it).it has a really aggressive adhesive, it's made for lettering nylon flags.
I iron it down with VERY light heat. I move one of the dollar kneepads (about 10 x 18 " that are sold for doing yard work on your knees) and move it under the awning fabric when I iron, and also when I roll the paint. The soft underlayment helps.
Then, I always use the 4 inch roller foam (contractor's pack ) with the handle ( Home Depot or Lowe's) to roll on the base coat of flat poster screen ink. I like it because it dries quickly, seals the pores well, and because I got a whole lot of it cheap at an art supply sale. This could be done with most any paint that is not too thin.
Then I roll it with slightly thinned Nazdar Permaflex, but even here the ink is not that important, as long as it is good outdoor stuff, with some substance to it, not runny.
Then I dry it, and from now on I will also use fans, (thanks Michael, great tip) and then I roll it again.
After that is dry, and the stencil is removed, any needed corrections of a little bleed here or there can be flicked off with a dull exacto blade, touched up with paint the color of the background, or scraped a bit and then dissolved off with lacquer thinner, using a rag that has no lint.
It's fast, easy, and makes money.
By the way, I cover the cut stencil, unpeeled, with crosses of wide masking tape to hold it together. Then I cut it into easily manageable pieces, then I take off the liner and position the piece. The shape of the cut lines help you assemble it properly, and then I peel off the masking tape, peel out the letters, mask out where the cut lines may leave a bit of a gap, and then proceed to the ironing.
Presto.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dittos on using Fab-Tac. When the How-To was written, Fab-Tac wasn't readily available like it is now.
The reasons for using Nazdar's PX series Permaflex ink are....
1) It won't wick under the mask. 2) It dries flexible. 3) You can apply additional coats without waiting for the previous coat to dry. 4) It can be tinted with lettering enamel. 5) Applied properly, it won't crack or flake off.
The "Personal Training Center" awning was lettered on-site by an employee of mine who had only been with us for a few months. She had about two billable hours in the project and was able to complete the job in one trip. The job sold for about $180.00.
Burgundy Sunbrella is notorious for bleeding. She was able to apply two medium coats of white PermaFlex ink before applying the one coat of black in for the shadow.
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Glenn, those look great! I'll have to try the inks, I never looked into it because of what Sunbrella said, or rather Glenn Raven Mills who make Sunbrella. If there is a easier paint/ink out there I'm for trying it! thanks again
-------------------- Michael A Latham Tee's Me Shirt & Sign 16462 Jefferson Davis Highway Colonial Heights Va. 804-835-3299 signdogopie@aol.com Posts: 379 | From: Colonial Heights, Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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I've always bought FabTac from the company that sells Sunbrella - Astrup. I don't know of any sign suppliers that carry it, but maybe somebody does. FabTac is cut-n-stick. When I'm up on a scaffold, i don't want to have to use and iron or heat gun (DacEZ). I'm always have to letter the awning, or reletter it, after its installed. If i was working in a shop with loose canvas, that might be different.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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I've refussed to letter already hung awnings, only 2 though in 2 years! (they were also older awnings, don't want to get into quality issues with older fabrics) Astrup is where my awning people buy from also. New version of fabtac can be ironed or not from what I get out of the instructions.
-------------------- Michael A Latham Tee's Me Shirt & Sign 16462 Jefferson Davis Highway Colonial Heights Va. 804-835-3299 signdogopie@aol.com Posts: 379 | From: Colonial Heights, Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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Got my Nazdar PX Series ink today. Did a small job with an intermediate vinyl as a stencil. Worked great!
The PX ink covered very very well with a single coat (white ink on a dark blue Sunbrella).
The PX is so thick that it really didn't wick under the stencil at all (well -I don't count 2 very small spots). Worked 1000 times better than the other Nazdar inks that I tried.
Thanks again for everybody's help on this.
-------------------- Jim McLain McLain Studios 1203 Main Street Asbury Park, NJ 07712 jlm@mclainstudios.com Posts: 42 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Aug 2004
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![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I get the FABTAC from my awning company, they order it when they order Sunbrella and I buy it off of them, good relationship! Other materials have different ways and stencil materials, make sure it's Sunbrella.
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Guess I'll have to do a seal coat with a mixed color since the PX series doesn't come in clear.
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