posted
Some of "us" as in some of "everybody here" Gavin Sheesh talk about paranoia, I consider the people here as one unit "Letterheads" as in us I don't think there is a us and them thing going on - at least not in my ballpark. Can't I tell it like I see it too? LOL Doesn't mean I hate anybody or anything. I just thought there was a clear case of loss of perspective happening here. Maybe I am alone in this - but I really doubt it....
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
OK! Enough already. This sorta reminds me of that story about the pig and the chicken.
One day the chicken approached the pig and suggested that the two of them treat the farmer to a ham and egg breakfast. As you can imagine, the pig was less than excited with the idea. He had far more to lose.
This is a similar situation. Letterville is our sole source of income. We don't sell a magazine, product or represent any supplier or service. We make money by helping others make money.
From time to time, we stick our necks out and make decisions that are not always popular at first. We realize some people hate change, but at the end of the day, it is us who have the most to lose. That's the way it is in business.
Over the last 10 years, we are well aware some of our decisions and policies are not popular with everyone. There are even a few that may have made a decision to leave because of our business decisions. That's unfortunite, but there is some comfort in knowing they made some new pals during their stay here in Letterville.
We consider Letterville to be an online Letterhead Meet. It will never be possible to experience anything even close to the real thing, but we're trying.
Let's talk about that M word. Money! Letterheads are all about the free exchange of information. Everyone involved has something to contribute and each of us learn something new at a meet. We are all equal.
Unfortunitly, nothing is really free. We have attended "free meets" during the last 23 years, but not many. Those that are free are either sponsored by Suppliers or a donation pail is passed around. The knowledge is free, but the costs associated with hosting a meet, require money.
Letterville is possible due to the financial support of Residents and Merchants. When I need feedback on the website, I go to those that have an investment in this site for advice. Their financial backing indicates to me that they have faith in our dream, as well as a sincere desire to see it succeed. Is that wrong?
Last night we had a discussion about Determining Your Hourly Shop Rate. You can use a product like Mark's or take what you learned and invest in a pencil and paper. The point is I invited Mark to take part. He was not paid by anyone to be here. In fact, he actually gave away 2 $100 dollar gift certificates.
We sometimes learn by our mistakes. The incident Gavin refers to was unfortunite and entirely avoidable. I will never allow myself to be drawn into negotiating private business affairs in a public forum again. There are a few things in the lives of Barb and Steve that are simply nobody's business.
At the end of the day, it turns out that I really am a pig after all.
[ January 28, 2005, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
PalTalk is a nice product with some great potential. To disregard it because some don't want to change or because a couple of computers can't use it would be ludicrous.
The opportunity to speak with a Merchant AND with users of the product/software/system/materials they represent is a good thing.
It's a live event folks, complete with voice intonations and attitudes. If a vendor makes a claim that is improper, there will be several people online who will be able to contradict or confirm the claims. Keeps everyone honest and allows a means of disseminating information in an interesting and timely manner.
Not all of us have the same needs or interests. Not all of us have the same questions to ask a vendor... but we can all benefit by listening. This is not a static commercial, it is an interactive product showcase, and as such, keep an open mind about it.
Hey, if you don't want to participate in a learning venture, then continue to do the normal chat thing. As long as it is around, I'm sure there will be people to use it, and that's a good thing.
I, for one, found it to be a good tool.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kelly Thorson: REALITY CHECK!!!!! Perhaps there is a difference in a merchant being invited versus just helping themselves ..............?
The case I'm speaking of, the merchant was invited, or it was at least agreed to, that a single Monday each month was designated specifically for that merchant in chat, to answer questions and give advice. A fantastic idea 'cept the fact their representative was paid to do so, just as they would have been paid to attend a meet, but that apparently was a deal breaker.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Thanks for clarifing the details of our private business deals Mike. You would know far better then we do about the business of running a website like Letterville.
I'll be sure to forward all our financial dealings with customers and users for your approval in the future. BTW? Do you do marriage consulting too?
Just joking with ya!
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Yes Donna, I think on the estimate chat topic, Steve mentioned something about only being able to find the room when it is open & that being only when he (or someone with access) is there.
Steve, I agree with Donna's observation the other day that you have a real positive "way with words" quite often.
I also think Mike's post bothered you & your doesn't quite take the sting out of how it comes across. (pot calling the kettle black here, I realize... being such a venomous writer myself at times) ...but I wanted to share another viewpoint.
The history of events, discussions, memories etc. that take place here are made possible because of your creating this place. Although it is a business, as you pointed out, it is obviously an extension of your love for this trade.
For your role in creating Letterville, we are all somewhat indebted to you. You also give credit to the fact that financial contributions from merchants & residents plays a significant role, as does the involvement of visitors.
One of the biggest draws of this site for me is the development of relationships with so many people. After almost daily involvement for over 3 years, the history of events, discussions, & memories etc. that take place here are parts of OUR lives. If someone asks about some history, someone else recalls it for them. It happens when we search out old threads to answer new questions, & it happens when bits and pieces of Letterville history are swapped & shared to fill in the puzzle for others.
You stated that you hope to never again "be drawn into negotiating private business affairs in a public forum " Sounds like a good lesson for the future, but you can't change the past & the Signgold/Chat drama that went down did in fact go down in a public forum.
I don't think it is fair to be offended now if others talk about that event in public. It's not like Mike was exposing some heretofore unknown private secret
posted
It's true Doug. I'm not perfect. I spend all day and half the night monitoring this BB. You only spend about 6-7 hours a day!
There are times that I get upset at what I read. In most cases I am able to stuff my face between the mattress and just scream. The odd time, I just can't resist hitting back. You know how that goes.
My only comment on the drama you and Mike brought up is this. What you saw on the BB was bits and pieces of a much more complex discussion with a business client of Letterville.
In reality, there are all sorts of phone calls, emails and other stuff that goes on behind the scenes. Many of the dramas I see on this BB, are the result of other events that nobody but the principles involved, really understand. Third parties jump in to defend their favorite team, and the war of words is on. It's silly.
What you often see here is just the tip of the iceberg. Don't believe everything you read. All parties involved in a debate are going to spin the facts to gain support for their side of the argument. In the process, much of the real truth is left out. Never assume! It often makes an ass u me.
In any case, I learned a valuable lesson. BTW...I am no longer the pot I once was. Below 260 now and still shrinking 3-5 lbs. a week.
Now let's get back to what was a damn fine discussion about PalTalk.
[ January 29, 2005, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Gavin, I was not refering to a merchant problem with Brian on Mirc. Actually I have no details about such a problem other than the blather here.
I was refering to comments made about merchants with respect to Paltalk.
Here's an assinine, outrageous and bold assumption I have:
People who are great sales people should have a natural desire to contact, & communicate with, those to whom they sell to or hope to sell to. Therefore, it would make all the sense for those individuals to be scheduled to be on a CHAT SOMEWHERE to demonstrate & feild questions about their products REGARDLESS of whether their company pays them to do so or not.
I was simply making the statement that this was mentioned and worries quelled (I tho't) concerning merchants in PalTalk in the future.
Steve, if I'm wrong you may stone me . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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there you go getting defensive again Steve, ...drama I brought up? ??? I didn't bring it up any more then Mike did, & the differentation of Brian's being paid on Signgold chat nights seemed pretty damn innocent to me. I mean you publically drew that as a very specific line in the sand back then.
You won't find any judgement on your personal business decision in my post. I simply point out that we live here too, & discussing policy or the moving target of social correctness around here is part of the human interaction that sets a BB apart from a trade mag, or instructional video.
I don't know if you're more upset about the airing of the taboo on paid merchant/chat sessions, or on the rampant discord in your "damn fine discussion about PalTalk" but whichever it is, it ain't my doing.
posted
Boy oh boy...you can't imagine how much I wanted to stay out of this one. I had made up my mind that not only did I never want to bring all that old stuff up, but that I didn't want to get involved if someone else did.
What changed things, was Steve's comment about how "what was seen here was just bits and pieces" of what really went on. If it weren't for that statement, which makes it sound like there were aspects of that whole scenario that I wasn't forthcoming with, I would have left well enough alone.
I'm not going to rake up that old mud, but I feel a need to defend myself about that. What was posted here, was pretty much everything that was involved in that sistuation. I didn't keep anything from anyone here, or elsewhere. It was all unfortunate. End of story.
When I CHOSE to leave here, rather than back down from the stand I had taken...I did so with many regrets. I've told people that without a doubt, many here in Letterville, enough so that I would say Letterville as a whole, had become like an extra family. When I departed, it was much like saying goodbye to a family member. And like with any other loss, it got easier to deal with in time, and while I still very much missed my involvement, I was certainly carrying on.
In the days and weeks following July 9th of last year, several people contacted SignGold's main office, and expressed that as long as I was a part of SignGold, they wouldn't be using the product. Some of those people were Letterville regulars that I had helped, most often with non-SignGold issues. Things ranging from Substrates to Paint. When I saw some of the names on those letters and emails to SignGold, I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother the hell out of me. But I got on with things.
Needless to say, I still contract in to SignGold, and Steve still runs Letterville. Not much has changed.
I still check out the board occasionally. I saw the post about Estimate's upcoming chat, and didn't say a word. First and foremost, because in addition to being a business associate, Mark Smith is my friend. I would never rain on his parade. He's too much of a stand-up guy, a gentleman and a professional. Secondly, I wouldn't have said anything publicly about it, because it wasn't my concern, or my business. Steve has made it abundently clear to me, as well as others. This is HIS party, and he makes the rules.
When Steve and I (not SignGold, but me personally) butted heads once too often over issues, he made a business decision that SignGold was welcome to be a merchant, that I was welcome to be a resident, but that I could not represent SignGold here. My monthly chat nights hads Steve's blessing in the beginning, but by his own admittance, he didn't like the fact that I was compensated for them, or for answering questions on this board. We had long conversations (and shouting matches) on the phone. Anything that was pertinent to my SignGold Merchant status here, was posted by one, if not both of us. There was no secret, clandestine, back-room sequence of events, as Steve's comment earlier in this thread would indicate.
I was always up front. I never denied or retracted anything I said. Never said anything I didn't mean...and certainly didn't hide how I felt about things.
It's all in the past. it's Steve's party. He's allowed to change his mind, because it's his game. He can do what he wants with this websight. I would just ask that he not bring my integrity into question. I would certainly extend the same courtesy.
Miss lots of you guys, but sure don't miss the problems.
Keep on keepin' on,
Brian
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Just curious - with all the people involved here, what do you think the odds are on pleasing everyone at the same time? Ain't gonna happen.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Just a reminder of what this post is all about.
Over the past week, we have been experimenting with a Letterville chat room we have created in PalTalk. Most users of our faithful, old mirc channel report PalTalk is easy to download, install and use. You can type to each other and share your files and photos, but there is also the ability to use voice and/or video. We've already planned an online interview on pricing your work and determining an hourly rate for later this week. Our online guest will be Mark Smith, the developer of Estimate Software. Start writing down your questions and watch this forum for more details.
Before going any further, we need to teach you how to download and install PalTalk. You'll also have to register a nickname and learn where to find the Letterville Room. Those who want to try the voice feature need to purchase a microphone. We suggest an inexpensive headphone with a mic. A headphone allows you to hear better without disturbing the rest of your family. Let's get started.
You'll find the PatTalk website at www.paltalk.com The first thing we need to do is download the program.
Downloading
Click on the 'Download All New Paltalk Messenger 7' button. You can't miss it! This will take you to the actual Download page. Select a place on your computer to save the file, and then click "Save". Download time is only a few seconds on a high speed connection and a couple of minutes on a 56K connection.
Depending on your Web browser's settings, you may see:
A security warning window. Click "Yes" to install Paltalk.
A file download window. Click "Save" to download Paltalk.
Installation
Once the download is complete, double click on the pal_install.exe icon or file that appears in the folder in which you saved the file. This will initiate the Paltalk installation.
Please note: Many software vendors, including PalTalk, recommend you shut off any anti virus program you are running while new software. Installations often require changes to the Window's Registry File. Most anti virus software detects this and you may find you get an error message and/or buggy installation.
After installation is complete, Paltalk should launch automatically. If everything has gone smoothly, it's now time to Register as a new PalTalk user. Please read the following closely.;
In PalTalk, you are allowed a number of various nicknames. I have one I use for just goofing around, and another I use in the Letterville Chat. We'd like you all to use the same name you use on the BullBoard in the Letterville Chat room. Example? I am steve_shortreed. Barb is barb_shortreed Our real first and last names.
Why real names you ask? There are a couple reasons. The first is confusion. It is vital that we all know exactly who each other are. My memory isn't as good as it once was, and I have a hard time with nicknames. For our own security, I want to know who I am talking with at all times.
The second reason is really much like the first. Letterville is not a secret society. We are all fanatical about what we do and proud of it. Many of us are also small business people. We're here to have fun, as well as to learn. There is simply no need to hide behind a nickname. Register a second or third nick for use in other, less community oriented, rooms.
During the registration process, you will be required to choose a password and create a secret question and answer. You will now be asked if you wish to subscribe to additional services or third party advertising. This is not unusual today. Everyone is looking for ways to increase revenue and a voluntary mail list is one of the most popular. Many consider it spam. Answer no if you don't want any of this stuff!
So you're registered and looking for the Letterville Chat Room. Where the heck is it?
PalTalk consists of 2 windows. Your main control window, and a room window. In the free version of PalTalk, you may see a popup window. Use any popular popup ad killer to eliminate these if you desire. We're interested in the main PT window at this point.
Look for a group of 4 tab selections called Home Groups Pals Favorites. You want to click on the Groups Tab, scroll down the list to the Business & Finance section. Click on it to open and look for Letterville. Double click on that link to join the room. That’s all there is to it!
At the present time, we have a free room. We have to have the room open in order for you to use it. Rather than sit waiting all day, we are opening the room at specific times. Right now, the room will be open 2-4 pm EST every afternoon and evenings from 8pm until midnight. Drop by, save the room as a Favorite, and start building your own Pal List of other Letterheads. Barb and/or I will be there to chat with.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
I still can't get there... I loaded it & ran it, & it said it couldn't connect. Following the help link, I went back & manually altered the XP Firewall with the reccommended settings. After a reboot & log on the next day I still get the "can't connect" box. (to get/register a name)
Manually, I got there as "Guest331" after just typing the URL in the browser bar, but couldn't find the specific windows mentioned- I got to a "Money & Finance" group but not "Business & Finance" as mentioned above, & got no further than that- no Letterville in sight.
Must be doing something wrong on 2 accounts, I just don't know which 2! (I'm using XP SP1, not SP2) & Firefox.)
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I've tried PalTalk a few times and so far have very mixed feelings about it...but I won't stop playing with it.
With irc, I involve my fingers to speak and my eyes to read. If I walk away for a minute I can read what was missed and catch up.
With this new chat room, I can speak with my fingers or my voice and listen with my eyes and my ears. I like involving more of my senses, but find some inequity across the board. Those without mic's cant speak. Those without speakers can't hear. Those that type might miss a large portion of what's going down. The stuff said is not documented for the others and there is no catching up after answering a phone call. I also find that with the irc I could silently be in a room with other people and still participate without seeming wierd. With the new chat, I'm in a room with my wife making dinner and I'm sitting there talking to no one seen and she needs to hear a lot of one side of conversations and also needs to hear the distraction of the sounds from something she has no desire to participate in. It seems much more suited for someone that lives alone.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I just wanted to say I very much enjoyed the Thursday night session with Mark. It was very informative to me. I'm a great typist but I did think that listening to Mark talk helped transfer perhaps more information than would have been transfered by type. JMHO though. My husband loves it cause he is a 'novice' typer. Anyway, thanks for the info and we look forward to joining more sessions.
-------------------- Tim & Kathy Cameron www.scarecrowstone.com Unique Signs by Unique Minds Hill City, Kansas zbounce@ruraltel.net Posts: 43 | From: Hill City, Ks USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I have the same issues that Rixax has...I have tried a similar program. It's great when you're watching your daughter bounce your grandson in front of a web cam but "lots of voices in my head" has never been on my itinerary...been hangin with furby in mIRC but really miss folks.
posted
I still prefer mike-less chat myself but there's a nifty feature to turn off the mike beside your name so others know not to talk to you and have to type instead.
I like the new variety of folks dropping in!
Found it very easy to install and super user friendly. Nice how you can change the font and color of your type so you stand out from the rest. Many nice features.
posted
"The only thing that bothers me is the lack of participation in our current chat. Compare the number of BB users to chat users. Some of that is our fault. We should have more structured things going on."
Speaking for myself, there is a big difference between chat and posting on the BB. For newcomers the BB is intimidating enough, there seem to be cliques present. Chat magnifies these feelings. I've done chat on and off in the past. It has it's good points and it has it's bad points. I've started some really good friendships on chat and had some great times. More often than not, cause I'm not a regular, I feel lost. The slapping around with the wet trout and all the other little tricks were just to much to try and learn. Because I was an infrequent visitor there was always a lot of talk going on about stuff I didn't understand. On the BB you just leave a confusing post. On chat, you're stuck watching it unfurl in front of you. Most nights I find chat really boring. That's just the way it hits me. Like the BB isn't for everyone, I've got good friends in the trade that just don't like using it, chat isn't for everyone. The fact that way less people use chat that the BB tells me I'm not alone. Another thing, I can get on the BB any time of the day or night, chat hours are real limited. By my time zone, you'ld better be there between 10 and 1 or it's mighty lonely. I don't think I've gone to chat in six months, it might be that long if I go there again , if ever. My computer is really sucking and I'm not downloading anything new at this time. If it was up to snuff, I probably still wouldn't.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
George, ya better duck! This post thread has been reserved for only posts from people thrilled with paytalk. The inner circle is watching and prepared to pounce.
posted
Donna...I posted my positive response ONCE earlier on.
It seems only those with a negative attitude are the ones who need to post SO frequently!
I find it strange that so many are intent on dragging down Steve's efforts to come up with newer ideas, when he was the one who created the very place that allowed all of us to come together in the first place!!!!
My second and final response on this thread.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
LOL George . . .don't duck. You ain't got a reason to...you just said it like it is for you, and many others. Some like it (mIRC)...some don't. No biggie.
I'm a firm believer in the old saying,
Don't start no mess, and there won't be no mess"
But that saying comes in second to:
"Tell it like it is."
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I have tried to download this three times already and every time I try, I get an error in dowload messgae. I give up. The third time was definately not the charm.
As far as the other stuff, who cares. Sheesh. I give up on that, too.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Don! There is no inner circle my friend. What you see is a business owner trying to make a change that will attract more users. Nothing more. It's upsetting to see you getting so crazy over this. The people of Letterville have always looked after their own. You know that personally. Relax. We WILL solve your problem somehow.
[ January 30, 2005, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
I rarely post on these type of threads, but I count 4,917 users here. That's a pretty good size small town. How many of your customers are completely satisified with your business decisions! Some of you guys need to take a bigger look.
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Could we have a rep from Avery come on Pal talk to discuss A8. (Just kidd'n)
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I got an even better idea David. I'll invite the first vinyl supplier that opens a store in Letterville. If Avery is interested, I have no problem.
We're looking for experts on a process rather than a product. Last week we had Mark Smith. The questions included Estimate, but the majority were all about determining shop rates and pricing.
I'm hoping to have another guest this week. Watch for that info Monday.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Nothing to add here...I'm just trying to slowly turn my controversial/non-controversial posting ratio into the non-controversial weighted percentile.
I've turned over a new leaf...and after several future postings, I hope to have redeemed myself to the few I might have offended.
But be patient....a relapse isn't out of the question.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I'm with you Bruce. I tried several times to get to pal talk's website, to no avail. Finally got the download at download.com: http://www.download.com/PalTalk/3000-2150_4-10339795.html?tag=lst-0-1 But everytime I try to run it, I get a popup that says it's an old version (it isn't). Then another popup says I'm an idiot. Then another popup asks,"Do you even know what you're doing?" Followed by a popup that points at me and laughs... I'm going to bed.
-------------------- John Stagner Action Graphics Salem, MO agraphics02@earthlink.net Posts: 98 | From: Salem, Missouri | Registered: Aug 2003
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