Many years ago the asst.city engineer (the guy who sprays with marking paint the bad segments in my sidewalk) told me I was finished because he saw a new fangled device that cut letters out of film. Gee, thanks for the tip, and concern, I think I have one of those anyways.
Nobody cares how you make the signs, it's the end product they want, how you get there is not their concern.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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"Lazer printers"? ..."Scanners"? Now *that* is an intelligently laid out site. I can't wait to throw my money at it.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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It's probably fairly difficult to get the serious attention of the sign making community with a layout that has all that tiny text jammed right up against the frame of my monitor. Gives new meaning to "flush left"
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WTF do photographers know about signs or sign making?
Oh. They answered that already. Apparently not a thing. Interesting how the less someone knows about a subject, the more they seem to express an opinion as a fact.
Happens here all the time...
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I didn't care for their website "Offer" very much. So I wrote them a note. This is merely for those interested to their reply, which I think they deserve. Like it or not.
MY NOTE-
First off: You are being mocked on a popular sign website for saying that us “Mom & Pop” stores are extinct or soon will be if we don’t switch all our gears to large format digital printing: I think many resent the implication!
Secondly: What in the world is FLARR. What does your acronym stand for?
Thirdly: You offer your shop saving reports at a cost but we have no idea what even one of the reports look like. As far as I know, my $20 would get a page of people saying “Yeah, I really like my Big Printer. It is like printing money”
Fourth: If you actually are hoping to get a sign makers attention, you might work on your page layout and text/kerning design. We do judge the book by the cover, and your cover isn’t too hot.
Respectfully,
Phil Steffen of Adirondack Engraving & Sign Shop 22 Cooper Street, Glens Falls, NY 12801 518-793-3122
I am actually considering the purchase of a large format printer/cutter and would benefit from sound advice and unbiased opinions. You will not convince many sign shops of the need of your advice by saying your year of research says that my 30 years in business is about to end. Treat your potential customer with respect and don’t assume we are ignorant.
THEIR RESPONSE-
Phil
We thank you for taking the time to write us. Judging from your website, you seem to have a wide range of experience.
We have received many e-mails from sign shop owners telling us they are being edged out by inkjet printers in their home town. So this is not us stating this is happening, it is sign shop owners themselves telling us, and asking for our suggestions on how to compete. Our reviews are guided by our readership, which is about half a million per year on the wide format site alone.
We have 32,000 e-mails, and this is a frequent theme (obviously not in all 32,000 e-mails).
We regret that this has been mis-interpreted; it is not our fault that technology is changing. And we never would have noticed if it had not been so many vinyl cutting shops telling us this themselves. We respect hard-working families; two of my brothers each have a business where they and their wives work together, and in one case the children help out too. Work is honorable, in all sizes and kinds of business.
The same thing is happening with lithographs vs giclee. Owners of lithograph print selling shops are objecting to competition that is selling giclee (and are more successful). We respect the right of anyone to sell any kind of print that they want, but it is a fact of life that giclee is replacing most kinds of art print.
FLAAR is an institute dedicated to the photography of the archaeological heritage of Latin America. This is why most of the photography you see on our www.digital-photography.org is of Latin America. I have been there since age 16, and was there a few weeks ago. For decades we specialized in photographing Mayan architectural history, and the flora and fauna associated with ancient civilizations. We have 40 years experience in professional photography, have been published in National Geographic. We received a research grant for $100,000 in 1997 to teach ourselves digital imaging. We felt that others would benefit if we shared the results of our switching from traditional to digital photography, so we began to publish reports outlining our trial and error in our early years. Now over a million people read our reviews, since we cover a lot more than just printers: we cover scanners and digital cameras too.
Once we learned how to handle digital cameras (in 1997) we needed a way to print them. Encad provided a printer and we began learning how to use a wide format printer. We still have this printer, along with more than 20 other wide format printers.
We print signs for two universities, for each campus on which we have a facility. We do printing to learn what it is like to deal with customers. If we just ran a university research lab, that would be unrealistic. I also do site-visit case studies of sign shops. We then take what we learn, and publish it in our reports. We are specializing in UV-flatbed printers now, since many screen printers and sign shops ask us for help understand the technology. I go to the trade shows in Germany to learn directly from the technical people and I attend as many international conferences as possible. All this goes into the FLAAR Reports.
I will let our web designers know the problem you pointed out. With so many browsers and operating systems, it is tough to have any webpage appear perfectly everywhere, especially when you have over 1000 pages. Besides, we are a non-profit institute, and we prefer to put our resources into our research rather than perhaps having a totally flawless site. But we do try to improve when people point something out.
On some of our websites we have a "flip through" of the reports. But with over 100 reports, and many of them being updated, it is a cost factor to keep the flip-through updated too. We do not earn the same rate as Amazon.com. But we do have a Preview of every series; every preview is supposed to have a Table of Contents of each report. We put the material primarily into PDF format because it is easier to update and improve the material via MS Word software than to deal with diverse webpages. This is why many of the sites are supposed to have a notice at the bottom indicating that the reports are more likely to be updated than a web page. There simply is not enough income to do everything at once. There is a tremendous difference being a research institute.
Overall there are not many comparable resources elsewhere; we are busy at work gathering information and making it available. Being human, we may err, but we offer material that a commercial company could probably not afford to provide. Plus we offer insights that do not tend to be available on commercial sites anyway.
It was considerate of you to let us know that there is a misconception of our intent. We seek to assist sign shops enter a digital imaging workflow. We have gone through the entry process, actually by accident of history, and are sharing what we learned so that what we learned is not lost.
Sincerely,
Nicholas
Dr N. Hellmuth Director, FLAAR
Center for Applied Technology Director, Large Format Digital Imaging Division 111 Saddlemire Bowling Green OH 43403
-------------------- Phil Steffen, 29 Van Rensselaer St City of Saratoga Springs DPW Saratoga Springs NY 12866 Posts: 563 | From: beautiful Saratoga Springs NY | Registered: Aug 2001
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My reaction is the same as Mark's. What a class and thoughtful way to respond to criticism.
On vinyl shops failing, we have to understand what is really happening there. The people that frequent or belong to this site take signmaking a whole lot more seriously than the average person looking for an easy opportunity to get into business. Purchasing a vinyl plotter or even an inkjet with the total aim being a good way to make money without regard to the end product, you are more likely to fail.
If you treat this business as a profession and you as a craftsman, the equipment is incidental to you and success more likely.
Plotters, inkjets, routers, brushes are all means to an end. Thinking of the end product, the customers, and the long term,are the true paths to a good career.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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This is not unlike the situation of 15 to 20 years ago, when signpinters were being replaced by vinyl cutters. In most cases, the painters had to be offering a service and a product that the vinyl shops could not; those painters who were marginally competent were edged out.
Now the next phase of technology is doing the same thing to vinyl shops - those who are marginally competent are being squeezed by those offering new products and services.
However, it should be noted that not ALL sign painters were put out of business by technology. Those who, as David wrote so well, treat this trade as a craft and themselves as skilled craftsmen, continue to thrive by developing their skills and offering a product and service that mere technology cannot. Those who believe that simply purchasing the latest high-tech gizmo is a substitute for constantly learning and developing their skills, will always be at the mercy of the next generation of technology.
On the other hand, those of us who aren't quite so dependent on machinery, really don't worry about it all that much.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Cam, you said it man. Besides, if I need to sell a digital print, there are plenty of places I can buy them without having to invest thousands of dollars in the equipment.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5400 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Dave said "Besides, if I need to sell a digital print, there are plenty of places I can buy them without having to invest thousands of dollars in the equipment."
But for only dozens of dollars, you can now buy "reports." "Publish or Perish," as they say in skool.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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OH MY GOD!!!!!...... The Sky Is Falling!!!
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