posted
Two more links, where the money is not used to support an organization and goes directly to the ones in need Welcome, Jeff Fisher. Thanks for posting your links.
Timi mentioned to me an hour ago that there was quite a bit of discussion of my posting the numbers. I had not revisited here since last night. And now I see there was labeling the message and shooting the messenger going on. Too bad.
Thanks to those who understood the comparison I was making.
To those of you who came after me personally, first let me say I forgive you, and then tell you that I was also very shocked at the numbers when put in such a perspective.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm happy to hear the Canadian government has just increased their contribution from 4 million to 40 million dollars. Individual canadians have already donated over 8 million to the red cross, and provinces are starting to pledge money as well. BC has committed 8 million dollars. That is 56 million and growing from a country with 33 million people.
It is really wonderful to see the world pull together in this kind of crisis. The news stories are absolutely devastating.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote: I see there was labeling the message and shooting the messenger going on. Too bad.
Sorry but,,, No myra, no one was shooting the messenger. It as your linking this tragedy, the US response to this tragedy, and the money spent on the bush inauguration that fired the flames..
`Your thinly veiled attack on bush is a political position. Likewise, your personal feelings about a certain political party is affecting your decisions.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Curtis..You and I, for once, have the same opinion!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
you know what... I have to agree with you guys too.
I have defended the remarks made about war costs, because I think it adds some perspective to the pre-existing debates in the world regarding a measurement of aid,& may be somewhat relevant to foriegners opinions of US spending habits because the war is obviously seen worldwide.
But I agree that linking the US response to this tragedy, and the money spent on the bush inauguration was a bad idea, and was asking for the fallout that it recieved.
I should also admit that my own personal feelings about a certain political party caused me to overlook that fact untill Curtis spelled it out so well. I appreciate having my eyes opened with an articulate observation.
Regardless of who is steering the ship, Myra's numbers brought perspective to the discussion - apparently an unwelcome perspective - and I think it is the rest of you (not all, obviously) who are responding "politically".
[ December 30, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:... your personal feelings about a certain political party is affecting your decisions.
Like Myra is alone in that? Let's be fair. And how exactly is that a bad thing?
It is in people's conduct during adversities and tragedy that we learn the most about their character.
Myra is encouraging us to pay attention.
"Pray to god, but row to shore".
Don't we owe it to the good of mankind to watch, listen, and become informed with our decisions? Don't we owe it to the lives lost to learn something from this tragedy?
It is the personal feelings of many on here that are reading more into Myra's intents.
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
God bless those that were lost, and God bless all on this board.
[ December 30, 2004, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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My objection to the UN official's comment is that it was a political jab to begin with.
This from a representative of an agency which wallows in corruption, whose high officials accept bribes and kickbacks for steering aid money to corrupt government officials - in other words, people who are getting rich from other people's suffering. UN aid agencies are famous for this, which is how they manage able to selectively ignore any humanitarian crisis that doesn't provide an opportunity to grease their own skids.
I'm far more interested in how individuals respond compassionately, looking for and finding the means to provide real help on the ground. Government aid money ends up being spread around by one pack of bureaucrats, to be soaked up by another country's bureaucrats, with the people in need getting the crumbs. UN officials are like hogs at a trough who start squealing when they don't get slopped as much as they think they ought - that's not a "political" statement, just an observation. I tend to be highly suspicious of all these professional UN do-gooders who never actually gets downwind of the smell.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Upwards of 100,000 people have been tragicaly killed in what might have seemed like only moments.
Everyday it is staggering to comprehend. The real tragedy will come when the media hype wains, the cameras go home and the horror fades from all of our minds. Thats when these people will feel abandoned and all alone to rebuild thier lives from rubble and destruction.
At that time most of the funding will dribble down to nothing as well. The real hero's will be not the countries that just send money for the people in a time of emergency but the ones who help and stay with these countries untill they can support themsleves again.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Edited: I've decided to take the high road here. Have a great day everyone...and godspeed to those willing to make personal sacrifices in both time and money in an effort to help those poor victims and their families.
posted
Having spent my childhood abroad, including six years in India, this hits close to home. What a heart wrenching disaster. It is hard to imagine how people can turn this into a personal thing. Instead of that try to imagine the pain and suffering as people search and find, or worse, don't find, their loved ones. India is a land of poverty and suffering, it is also a land of human resiliance, diverse cultures and beauty. Enough said....
-------------------- Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again? -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Maybe some of the UN comments will stir people into helping more. Sod your politics.
I think most people here in Sweden would do anything to help financially or helping voluntarily to collect or help with whatever needs sending out to help now rehouse and rebuild a shattered region.
Alot of people here are not going to celebrate the new year in the traditional way with tons of fireworks but would rather donate to try and help instead.
It all comes much closer to home when most of the foreigners killed where from here or other parts of Scandinavia, and most had travelled as families to escape the cold and darkness and enjoy Christmas in the sun on the beach.
They have their governments help to return home to a modern society with bereavement counselling etc etc. Atough call for anybody. Children have come home parentless on planes or newlyweds minus a partner. Here in Stockholm 1300 are missing presumed dead.
For those left behind....its going to take years and billions of dollars to put things right...dig deep.
These are aereal before and after shots of the Tsunami affected islands. A real sock in the gut to see, beware!
As Henry said, my mother also tells me there are people in trainstations and on the streets in Germany collecting money. And festivities for New Year's are curtailed in order to send the money instead.
They are now saying it may be the largest catastrophe in recorded history. And a Swiss release says that the Earth's axis is moved by 8 cm.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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On Amazon.com, they've devoted their front page to donate money, in just one click, directly to help with the disaster relief efforts thru the American Red Cross.
It's wonderful to see businesses that are making it so easy for people to get involved and help.
Nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
A comment here on the time it has taken the different powers to act and specify amounts of money to be given as aid . .
At one time in my history, I was employed as a Vice-president-operations for a large earthmoving contractor. One of the things we often were called upon was to attend to Truck accidents involving Tanker Transporters and spilled Hazmat. The only reason I even mention it is that each accident was different, even though the same kind of materials were involved usually (Gasolene, fuel Oil, Diesel). Therefore you couldn't just "Order up" what was needed and send it to the site. An "On Site Appraisal" was usually needed by someone expert enough to know what would be needed, and when . . .
I think that's one of the things that has held up a lot of the resources, Knowing what to do and send . . the magnitude of the destruction, Whether to search for bodies and survivors or save the living from further harm from pestilence and disease . . And these aren't small decisions, or easy ones . . not to mention that most world leaders were doing what the rest of us do at this time of the year . . Go on Holiday . .and they usually travel farther. so in order to get information, make initial decisions, start things in the general direction, they necessarily took action . . then spoke to the talking heads. I personally think that it's a big ego trip by the press to even infer that Bush, Annan, or any other world leader was dragging their feet.
And in Bush's defense as far as the money committed by the U.S., that's all he had in the checkbook, Congress will have to authorize any more money than the $35m already committed. And I'm sure they will. At this time the press has turned it into an "Auction", and possibly, there'll be more money than is actually needed.
All the money we send can't bring back the dead and that was the greatest loss. With a couple of exceptions the material damage wasn't as great as it appears on TV's Soundbites . . True the beach areas and tourist facilities near the beach suffered lots of damage . . and of course the Infrastructure in those areas will need to be rebuilt. But why go out and rebuild all those little coastal villages that no longer have any live inhabitants?
Just take care of the Children . . The rest will get by pretty well . . The human is a very reslient species . . Again, Mother Nature has No Compassion!
posted
John, I think you raise many valid points & I agree with 90% of your comments.
I will have to disagree with one for sure... "and possibly, there'll be more money than is actually needed" R U Serious
A tsunami warning system like we have here in the Pacific would be one very costly project that falls far below the more immediate needs, but is an extremely good idea to do when possible. A system of seismic activity detection sensors laying on the ocean floor (scattered around all the oceans)& transmitting data to bouys above them that link by satellite to a monitoring station. It's appalling that 4 hours after the first wave of destruction, people in Africa were still hanging around the beach without warning.
I've probably said enough on the "amount of aid" question... Although I understand that much more funding will be provided, I don't believe for a minute that our government's committing of(not necessarily sending immediately)more then 35 million was not possible. (interesting that one drug company alone matched that number )
posted
Doug, I would think with the checks & balances system built by the founding fathers that there IS a limit of money the president can spend without congress approval. If not, why would congress have to approve the budget? I don't know this for sure, just saying what my common sense says.
The second thing I have to ask is, how much does this cost? How can anyone set a price hours after something like this happens? I see this as the emergency seed money to get supplies, food, help on the way til we get a real handle on how bad it is, what exacty is needed. How long did it take to come up with a final $$$ for the Florida Hurricanes?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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lets see here.. In a non emotional respnose.
The first offer was up to 30?? millions in goodies.
To be hauled by at least 11 C-130 transports @ $59 mill each.. That burn thousands of dollars of fuel each hour, manned by highly traiend crews.
Along with an air craft carrier and its entire support group of ships that costs billions
and the thousands of service people to man the supply chain and distribution..
With the hundreds of medical teams that will swarm ashore treating the casualties and setting up MASH units..
And each ship with desalination plants that costs 40 mill each supplying clean water..
And all the food and supplies that will be given as needed to the locals.
All that along with the vehicles and other equipment needed to acces the remote places..
All this and more to come as is the USA's usuall response.
There no comparison and nothing to think about. We are doing what we can as we always have.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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If this list is accurate, tragedies of this magnitude have happened many times throughtout history. Not to minimize the current situation, but it puts it into perspective
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3489 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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On this New Years eve I will be saying a prayer for those victims and countries affected by the Tsunami.New Years is just not the same.In almost a Blink life changed for the worse in Southern Asia.It's trully a Sad time!In the aftermath of the tragedy though,it is amazing to see the Global response taking place.The Human spirit is a great thing.
-------------------- Ron Gibbs Gibbs Airbrush www.gibbsairbrush.com 1381 St. Marys Cres. Burlington, Ontario, Canada, L7P1S1 Posts: 119 | From: Burlington,Ontario,Canada | Registered: May 2003
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Doug . . Yes I am serious . . . Since I wrote the little missive above, the State Department has stepped up and comitted $350m (with Congressional approval, and that'll happen), so when you add that to all the money that is in the kitty right now, you have a tremendously large pile of CA$H. Now what do you do to convert it into aid? A large percentage of the CA$H may or may not get converted into aid for the children, and the people who need medical care. To be sure, the immediate needs will probably be taken care of . . But will any of that money be earmarked for long term care for the orphans created, their educational needs, compassionate homes, of will they be faced with the prospects of becoming child prostitutes and beggars next year just to exist?
No, probably not, but a lot of that money will be spent on new infrastructure, new Hotels, new Tourist attractions, the things that will start the tourist industry up again . . So who'll get the lion's share? Construction Companies . . they'll get rich! Know that for a fact, been there, done that (on a much smaller scale) and in the end, the people who could've re-built out of their pocket (quite like the people in Florida are having to do still) will get help on an economic scale we could only dream of.
And yes, Doug, there will be a Tsunami warning system built in the Western Pacific . . George Bush alluded to that in his first speech in Texas after this thing happened. However, had one been in place, the areas where the death tolls were the highest had little or no warning time had one been in place, and a lot of them lived in remote locations that wouldn't have received the word anyway . .
As has been said, a warning system just helps those who can help themselves . . Say the Canary Island Volcano Collapses into the sea and creates an Atlantic Tsunami with a crest of, say 50 feet. It'll take it to Florida and the East Coast in two hours plus . . as was said here, I believe . . . Let's see you evacuate Miami-Dade County in Two Hours . . 65% of the population will still be in the "Kill Zone"! Where would you go, in Florida, to escape a wave of that magnitude?
Warning or no warning system, anytime you have one of Mother Nature's "Large" or "Historical" Incidents, on a planet that has the dense population we have, a lot of people are going to get hurt (or Killed) and there's still not a lot we can do about it. Best thing you can hope for is to be someplace where you can ask; "What was that?"
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