posted
Today was the first time I ever knew this bulletin board existed and I look forward to using it frequently in the future!
I am sorry so many people have had problems with Avery A8 vinyl, but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one. We first learned about it in October when one of my long-time customers called to say that the vinyl was shrinking on one of his trucks. Unfortunately that was only the tip of the iceberg. Almost every single job we did this year using Avery A8 vinyl has failed!
My reason for posting this topic is: 1.) To establish that this is a REAL problem, not a problem with the installation as some readers have ignorantly implied and 2.) To hopefully hear from some who have been reimbursed for the labor to remove and replace the defective material. To merely offer to replace the defective product to me is an insult. I could accept that if the problem occured after 3 or 4 years (although it should last much longer.) But we have had failures show up in less than TWO MONTHS!!!!!
The whole reason I used High Performance vinyl was to give my customers a product that would last at least 6-7 years. I've been using Avery (Spar-Cal and Universal TFX) for nearly 20 years with excellent results. But now even the vinyl I have in stock is shrinking on the roll!!! At any rate, I have some actual pictures I'd like to post if I can figure out how to do it.
Please look at them and decide for yourself once and for all if this was an "installation" problem.
Thanks, Kenny Pippin 334-712-0110
P.S. I guess I don't know how to attach my photos. I would certainly welcome any suggestions.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Kenny Rule #1 is type anyway you want to...if they want to read it,trust me they will.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
No use of paragraphs are a true sign of a free flowing consciencness. A true inteligent being.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Gavin's been caught using paragraphs at least once. We hope it happens again.
Paragraphs, or no paragraphs, his posts are always a good read--but an easier one with them. If you're ever in the mode of "Everything I ever wanted to know about paint but was afraid to ask", Gavin is 'da Man!
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Kenney just incase you thought no one was taking your post seriously...I thought I would answer it and welcome you here.
Looks like Avery has a lot of explaining to do and I for one wish they would "get after it" I'm beginning to wonder if they are just going to keep a low profile aaand hope all this will just go away.
Neither of my suppliers have contacted me about the problem.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Kenny, Welcome aboard. There is a how-to article about posting pix on the main page of the BB, I think in FAQ. I don't care how you type as long as you have something worth reading! (Gavin usually does) Neither one of my suppliers knew anything about the Avery problem either, and I also have a few rolls that are shrinking in the box. If you do a search, go back 30 days or so and look up "vinyl shrinkage/glue halo" posted by Jeff Spradling. That thread pretty much beats the Avery issue to death. It has probably caused many of us to swear off Avery as well. Love....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Many of us feel your pain with the A8 situation. For you and anyone else interested in seeing how Avery views its problem, make this simple check with your supplier: Make a call to your supplier to see if the company has removed their defective products from their shelves. If they haven't, they are continuing to flood the markets with bad A8.
It seems to me that the first step for Avery would be to let all their distributors know that there could be a problem. This could be accomplished quickly and would spare many signmakers some heartache. One of my Avery suppliers told me this has not been done. When Tylenol had suspicion of a tainted bottle or 2 they removed the product from the shelves -- lickady split. When Firestone had their tire problem they acknowledged it and removed the product -- game, set, match.
If the product isn't removed from the supply, it's an indication that the company does not consider the situation to be grave enough to act upon. I can't help but digest that when I'm removing high performance vinyl which isn't even a year old from a good and loyal customer's project. Consider the inconvenience to a customer who's 75 miles away.
I talked to a signmaker whose distributor acknowledged defects with certain lot #'s. When they gave him replacement stock, they resupplied him with more defective stock. I think what we have here is a huge corporation, where the wheels turn slowly. This could take a while to resolve, in the meantime there's plenty of folks like you out there that are unaware of what's been hashed out on this board. They are going to have a big surprise.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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By the way, it was 14 days ago yesterday that I sent the email direct to Avery Dennison's corporate offices asking for a response to my questions and comments about A8 vinyl.
Guess what? Still no answer - even though the auto response promises a response in 4 days or less.
Sorry Avery - your conspicuous silence has forced this Letterhead to switch PERMANENTLY to 3M. I'll pay the extra $$ with no sleep lost. We did some calculations and in the last 5 years have spent just under $15,000.00 on Avery vinyl. In the last 10 years it is probably closer to $25-30,000.
Imagine if everyone here switched - and had previously spent that kind of money on Avery products? Now that's a dent in sales.
Avery, you blew it guys. I'm not alone in making the switch and you're going to spend a lot more trying (fruitlessly) to get me - and many others - back as a customer.
Thanks for keeping true to the new American Corporate tradition of deceiving your customers (intentional or not, the silence says quite a lot). Here's hoping you get a lump of coal in your stocking this Christmas.
As Gomer Pyle used to say: "Shame, shame, shame".
[ December 09, 2004, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Evidently this topic has already been beat to death, but apparently a lot of people are still unaware it exists or are unaware of the enormous magnitude of the problem. I'm afraid it's going to take some lawsuits to make the point.
For us, this is more than a minor inconvenience. This past year alone we did over $50,000 in jobs using Avery A8 vinyl. And so far, every single one of them has been defective.
I'd still like to post a few pictures showing the extent of the problem. It could possibly help someone avoid some serious headaches. Any comment on how to do that?
posted
Im not as affected as some of you are who consume large amounts of vinyl. I have spent the past few years deliberately getting away from vinly.
I did however have about eight rolls on the shelf and shrinking. My supplier came by and personally picked up the defective material, wrote a credit slip, and exchanged with Oracal.
Also told me to figure out my labor and that I would be reimbursed for my labor at what if memory serves me right, $20.00 per hour. Now I don't know if that was from the supplier or from Avery but I was told it would be no problem.
Im glad I dont have to eat a years worth of jobs like some of you. I guess I made the switchover in the nick of time.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
I'm with Bob S. on this one. My supplier has taken a very similar course trying to clean up this mess.
They exchanged new and partially used rolls for credit and mentioned reimbursment for labor but didn't give an exact amount. They did say less than "shop rate". $20 per hour is better than nothing. Document Everything!
I asked who was eating this. Them or Avery? No answer.
So far we've tried 3m and FDC. The characteristics of FDC are very similar to Avery in cutting and weeding. Both cost less than Avery in my area by a buck or three per roll.
I like 3M's agressive adhesive except sometimes it needs to be hit with the heatgun to get the gloss back. PIA!
Best of luck.
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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I'm pretty sure that FDC is just a converter. If their products (or someof them) look and smell like Avery, chances are that they were probably made by Avery.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Are the problems with the A8 regular or the A8 "EZ"?
I've heard the problems with the "EZ".
I've got one truck to re-letter, I used the A6 and I think the roll's shelf life may have been kinda old, so I'm changing it. The customer told me it had started to peel after 1 month after I installed it. TI did the job 2 years ago, but he never called me on it. I'm gonna redo it in good faith. Nothing like a good name to keep up.
-------------------- Tony Broussard Graphic Details Digital Media Loreauville, LA Posts: 395 | From: Loreauville, LA | Registered: Jul 1999
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I was wondering about that Jon. Especially that their colors are pretty much the same, minus a few selections. What's throwing me off is the 3M/Scothcal and FDC color charts (not to be confused with vinyl samples)look the same and came together in one package.
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Kenny, there are 2 ways to post pictures here. One is to become a resident. Letterville gives residents some server space to upload pictures.
The other is to have your photos on a web sight that will allow you to post a link from Letterville.
I guess I've been lucky. I do use some Avery but I've had no shrinkage on the rolls or complaints from customers, so I'm assuming it isn't a problem through out the entire A8 line but rather certain batches.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Some people have said before that they had problems with the EZ too. Don't use it, dunno first hand.
Contact Tim Doyle at Avery. Don't get all huffy if he doesn't reply in 30 seconds or less.
If you're upset that Avery won't post specifics, consider this. Say they post that all the medium green lot #57328194732-b is suspicious. Don't be naive enough to think that they won't be inundated with people who have never or rarely used Avery now claiming that they used 10 rolls of that material and their hourly shop rate is $500 and they did a big job which was then shipped to the bahamas and the only way to fix that is to fly them to the bahamas for 2 weeks and of coure Avery HAS to pay for that. Ok, maybe not to that extreme, but you get my point.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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If you've got good suppliers you're lucky with this Avery thing. I just got off the phone with my supplier in Chicago. They make weekly trips here. I happen to get the owner on the phone. After I ordered some Alumalite, I asked if Avery came and restocked their A8. He said they did not, and that there's not a problem in Chicago -- no more than what would be expected. Most of the problems he thought were somewhere south. To folks in Chicago, anything south of I80 is south, so I'm not sure exactly what he means.
In a nut shell, there's probably too few of us for a giant company to be concerned with. The paper work surrounding this is what concerns me. Since we're in over our heads with remodeling right now, I'm not looking forward to seeing just how bad of a problem I have. I dodged the bullet with 2 of my main trucking firms, but the few local jobs I checked on recently were all showing excessive shrinkage.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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The third photo exceeded the limits of the Photo Album. These two pretty well get the point across, and basically show what everybody else is experiencing.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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[ December 08, 2004, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Jane Diaz ]
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Someone from Avery called me the other day because of a post that they saw here. They wanted to know if I had put a claim in for the reflective that I have been having problems with. I told her that I had done 7-8 police cars this year and I didn't know how many were having problems with the vinyl pulling off. Does anyone have a phone number to call someone in their claims dept. I was really stressed when she called and didn't get a phone #. The cop that was just here said that this started happening within a week after installation.
passenger side - rear door
passenger side - front door
Every car that I did this year with 3M still looks good.
[ December 09, 2004, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
I posted in the earlier post about my problems, however after about a month me sending vinyl samples to Avery and to my supplier. And my supplier Contacting Avery.
Nothing from Avery my supplier has offered to credit my account for the vinyl we know is affected. Apparantely with photos and samples they are pretty certain they will be reimbursed by Avery.
They say Avery knows they have a big problem, and even they wonder why still no recalls, or even statements about what vinyl is or is not affected. I called to ask if some other vinyl I have will have the same problems or not.
They act like everything after a certain date is alright, but even they sound unsure about those dates. So either Avery is just hoping in time it will all go away or they are still unsure about how broad the problem reaches. What's up Avery you know there's a problem but just want to let it turn into a bigger problem, good thinking. NOT!
The product is only as good as the company that stands behind it, and from what I have seen and heard and especially from my own experience, the Avery product is worth $0.00
We have gone to all Arlon and 3m, it doesn't weed as nice but it's better than the alternative.
-------------------- Dave Levesque Angelo Sign 3014 Hemlock San Angelo, TX 76904 Posts: 82 | From: San Angelo, TX | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
This whole process stinks of lawyers (or is that an open sewer?), as in the Avery Dennison corporate legal department telling their representatives not to admit to or comment on any of this. And why not? None of these bottom-feeders have it coming out of THEIR paychecks.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Those of you affected by this should stop looking at this as a warranty issue and start looking at it as a product liability issue. By dealing with this on a case by case basis Avery is helping their own position. If they have to deal with a lawsuit, whether individual or class action, then they will have others deciding just how much damage has been caused and what compensation should be made.
That is the last thing they want to see.
I'm not affected since I don't use their films, but if I were I wouldn't accept anything from Avery without first springing for an hour with a competent attorney.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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They certainly seem to be sweeping what they can under the carpet and hoping the bulk of this will simply blow over. I would love to see someone in the media take this story up...hmmmmmmm.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Not to rub salt in anyone's wounds HONESTLY, we had problems with Avery vinyl doing the same thing sometime ago and switched back to Arlon (don't know why we ever switched) Arlon is a great product and we have had nothing but excellent customer service when we need any extra information, product specifications for architects, etc.... just a little plug for a great product as I am sure I wouldn't be using Avery again...
dan
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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I spent about 30 minutes talking to Tim Doyle at the Sign show in Atlantic City.
Bottom line...
There are alot of people that are all talk and no action here... (my words not his)
Personnel from Avery have contacted a bunch of the people here that have posted on the previous thread about this so called vinyl failure only to find out that most of them have not experienced this problem themselves. Those people make it sound like they have a problem but when approached by Avery they cannot seem to provide any sort of photos or proof to back up their claims.
I for one am totally satisfied with what Avery is doing to resolve this issue. You may ask yourself why I feel this way, and I dont blame you. So let me explain myself...
WARRANTY!!!! read it!!!
If you go purchase a rebuilt motor for your shop vehicle and install it yourself and the motor turns out to be defective, did you know that their only recourse is to replace the defective motor, NO LABOR!... Did you also know that if you took your shop vehicle to the local garage and had them replace the motor they dont get reimbursed for the labor either. Or lets say the appliance repairman puts a new timer in your clothes dryer and three weeks later its bad again, guess what! He eats the labor too. Read the warranty that comes with most parts to be installed and you will see what I am talking about (I agree it sucks) its very similar to ANY vinyl warranty.
So my suggestion to many of you is to quit your bitching....
If you have a valid claim contact your local vendor and ask them to assist you just like the vendor that Alan Ackerson and I did for us. if your vendor is not giving you the satisfaction of replacing material for a valid claim then I suggest you contact Tim Doyle at Avery yourself let him know that your vendor is not giving you the right answers so maybe he can contact them and striaghten them out too. Then see what he can do for you. Some of the photos I have seen here are not related to this problem but are actually an installation issue or from the use of a pressure washer. Both are not covered by warranty. Bottom line is that AVERY is doing something about it and who gives a rats butt if they come in here and say anything or not, its your job to file a claim whether it be one failure or a million failures the procedure for filing the claim was in the post by Tim and I followed his procedure and I got results.
YES I will keep using Avery vinyl,.
I have had failures already with the Gerber/3m product and spent two weeks removing and replacing it on 7 firetrucks but that was 6 years ago now. So why would I want to go back to that one when I only had one confirmed failure with the Avery vinyl.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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If a product is advertised to be intended for a certain use and/or of a certain quality and, furthermore, is used by enough people for enough time successfully .... then suddenly doesn't work successfully, and, in fact, causes damage, .... then, depending on the extent of the damage, it may move from warranty to liability. The advertising and successful use may create a legal right of "reasonable expectation" for the user.
It's really a matter of the extent or degree of the damage as to whether or not a damaged user will seek compensation beyond warranty coverage. The liability exposure is there and can be legally pursued.
If, for example, instead of just shrinking, the defective product had physically damaged the paint of each vehicle .... who should pay for the repair and would you be satisfied then with the warranty replacement of the materials used? What about the loss of value in the vehicle on the part of the customer, even after is is repainted? What about the loss of use to the customer while the repairs are made? Then there's the reputation to the user of the material and his or her time spent dealing with it.
If you have ten or twenty vehicles all with damaged paint, is that then sufficient to seek damages? If you lose a man-month dealing with the problems caused by a defective product .... is that enough? If you have 100 users all experiencing the same damage .... yada yada yada
A bad rebuilt motor that caused a fire resulting in damage to my vehicle and personal injury to myself preventing me from working for a month might be enough to cause me to seek out more than a replacement for the defective motor.
Warranty vs. liability.
-------------------- Fred Weiss Allied Computer Graphics, Inc. 4620 Lake Worth Road Lake Worth, FL 33463 561 649-6300 allcompu@allcompu.com Posts: 427 | From: Lake Worth, Florida | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:If you have a valid claim contact your local vendor and ask them to assist you just like the vendor that Alan Ackerson and I did for us. if your vendor is not giving you the satisfaction of replacing material for a valid claim then I suggest you contact Tim Doyle at Avery yourself let him know that your vendor is not giving you the right answers so maybe he can contact them and striaghten them out too. Then see what he can do for you.
I did this route also and am satisfied with the result. Tim Doyle also expressed in one post to see your supplier about your scenario if you want results. Not following protocal will result in a show and tell on the bullboard and nothing else.
posted
Is it my imagination - or is most (if not all) of the failed vinyl occurring on vehicles and trailers?
Does anybody have regular signs that are failing?
BTW - Harris, let people be frustrated. They need to vent somewhere. I do see your point - and its great to see all sides. Thank you for bringing up the warranty issues. Most of us DON'T read them. But people need to let off steam so telling them to 'kwitcherbitchin' only gets 'em more riled up. But hey, it's Christmastime!! Let's all be happy about even being here to bitch!!
Fred, well said. You've obviously had some experience with the law as it pertains to product.
[ December 11, 2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
IMO, bitching and action are two different things. I agree with you Jay, it's awesome to be able to come here and share this stuff, vital for the industry! But when someone sits at home waiting for the call, that's a different story.
What if all our customers ranted on a customer bb about some sign person in particular? It would be too overwhelming to deal with effectively. All you'd hear from the sign person is for everyone to contact him/her anyway. I'd think you'd get the right service by direct contact.
posted
Good point Harris about the rebuilt motor warranty, having worked in the auto industry , I'm painfully aware of how that works. Having a five layer vinyl job on a race car go south a few years back, getting a replacement roll for the faulty ( their admission ) vinyl as my only compensation, having to pull off everything ( Murphy's law being what it is, this color was the bottom layer on almost everything, having to buy more of the holographic and fluroescent to replace the job, not to mention that I get absolutely no satisfaction from doing a vinyl job ...well...I got out of the vinyl business.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Fred, you must have been an attorney in your prior life or a practicing sign person with a law degree.
I've had several problems with certain "lots" of Avery products and to be fair, one other manufacturer. My supplier usually will issue a credit when I have a problem. I then have to consider if I will trust that manufacturer enough to order their product again.
It takes time after you get burned...... Go with the ones you trust.
-------------------- Jeff Poitevint Sign-A-Rama Augusta 4015-M Washington Rd. Martinez, Ga. 30907 706-364-6393 augustasigns@comcast.net www.augustasigns.com Posts: 102 | From: Augusta, Ga. | Registered: May 2004
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Hey Jeff dont be shy, let us know who the OTHER manufacturer was so we might be able to make a more educated decision as to what direction to go for the next vinyl purchase.
This fence is really hurting my butt yannow
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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I have seen the problem with other substrates -- a lustreboard sign and 2 prepainted aluminum signs. After our remodeling is completed and we get reorganized, I will take some time out to see what the real extent of my problem is with A8. We dodged the bullet with 2 of my biggest customers.
I was a little surprised that my supplier still has the product on his shelves, so a least he's not convinced there's a problem and the product is going out the door to others.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I talked to one of my suppliers Friday and he told me their Avery stock had been quarantined and readied for recall. (I don't know if that meant all or only certain color series were being recalled).
He reassured me I would be "taken care of".
Fortunately for us our loyalty to Gerber and 3m has paid off...beacuase of it I only have one roll in that is in trouble and has caused us a problem...they will be picking it up Monday...I will not accept a reissue of Avery product...we are working on that problem now.
The only reason we had that roll of Avery was because of a color we needed and they came the closest to matching it...otherwise we'd have never been caught up in this fiasco at all.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
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You will learn alot of good things here....(some not so good to) ![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
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Having a five layer vinyl job on a race car go south a few years back, getting a replacement roll for the faulty ( their admission ) vinyl as my only compensation, having to pull off everything ( Murphy's law being what it is, this color was the bottom layer on almost everything, having to buy more of the holographic and fluroescent to replace the job, not to mention that I get absolutely no satisfaction from doing a vinyl job ...well...I got out of the vinyl business.
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