posted
Given all the commotion over the recent Avery problems, I was looking through the various vinyl charts I have for warranty information. Every one of them states that they will only be held responsible for replacement of defective product. Some have no warranty at all. They all state clearly that there will be no other compensation. One of them even states that the supplier is not allowed to offer compensation for anything other than the actual materials. Arlon (CalonII) states that all failures must be reported within 30 days of failure for compensation. The basic truth here folks is that no vinyl warranty will compensate you for the labor in replacing it. Nor do they have to replace any vinyl damaged by their product (ei: Sign Gold over a vinyl base, or layered vinyls.) If anyone knows of a manufacturer that does, please let me know. Now this is not to say, that the manufacturers or suppliers can not compensate for the sake of customer relations, but I really doubt that a manufacturer will, simply because it is a dangerous precedent to set. I believe your best recourse is your supplier, although I see no reason they should be held responsible. I would be extremely surprised if there is any recourse against Avery - their warranty is clear about that. They probably should be looking at some form of damage control however. BTW has anyone here ever received compensation for labor from any of the other vinyl companies? I mean the manufacturer, not your distributor.
[ November 25, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5499 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I've showed the threads about Avery shrinkage to a local lawyer, he works for the firm of "Dewey, Screwum, and Howe". True the warranty is just as you described....but if a class action suit were filed against Avery it wouldn't be to force them to uphold their warranty....it would go into areas of selling a product that they know is having problems and not informing the end user of these problems. Then you get into labor costs for replacement, damages to your business reputation (which is priceless) and many more things. Hopefully Avery will step up to the plate and take care of us in this disaster so that we won't have to mess with no stinking lawyers.
[ November 25, 2004, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Mark Perkins ]
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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I beleive there is a lot of difference between a product that fails.. verses a product that is not as it was sold to be.
Huge amounts of shrinkages or adhesive failures are not expected and may be out of the realm of a normal failure. IE: Acting like a calandered product when sold as a cast product..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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If anyone thinks that a vinyl manufacturer is going to step up and offer compensation for labor expenses occurred, you are seriously fooling yourselves.
I spoke to a lawyer buddy, who belongs to my Masonic Lodge, and he felt there would be few lawyers who would be willing to take on this ordeal in the form of a class action suit. There just isn't enough in for them. Like he told me, no one wants to work for free.
It sounds really good to threaten such an action but the process would take so long to pull off that any manufacturer will outspend any of us. Many companies have an attorney on staff and they get paid whether they are in court playing lawyer or not. It doesn't bother them to be in court, it costs them the same no matter what. The same can not be said about the plaintiffs.
I was advised to take the replacement materials and get on with it. The warranties would, most likely, be held up under court scrutiny. In order to do otherwise, we, meaning the plaintiffs, would have to prove negligence or that they knew the product was faulty.
Knowing or suspecting something and absolutely proving it are worlds apart. It would take a whistle blower type situation to bring it all out into the open. Good luck. No one wants to lose their job that bad.
This situation absolutely sucks and it totally undermines my faith in certain vinyl manufacturers. I have been a faithful user of the one brand for years. I still haven't decided whether we are going to using the product in question on future jobs or not.
I will be curious to see how this all resolves itself.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6469 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
the ONLY one who ever gains anything from a class action suit is THE LAWYERS. menahwile you get to waste more of your valuable time giving the lawyers the ammunition they need to go after said parties.
Therefore in my very opinionated opinion, I wouldnt waste my time even considering calling a lawyer about it.
Bottom line, the only one who will ever make out in this situation will be a lawyer.
Lawyers are the scum of the earth. Oh wait did I forget to remind you that most judges are lawyers or stand to gain something by helping lawyers,(professional courtesy)
OH and one more thing..... You stand to gain more financially if you do the right thing and file your claim with your supplier properly than if you were to win such a class action suit. Multi Million dollar class action suits usually net the end user less than $100.00, Have you priced out a 50yard roll of vinyl lately? I'm sure that most people have more than one roll that would be replaced because of this situation.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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No, they are just smart people doing their job....IMHO
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5499 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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O.K., lawyers get a precentage of the settlement, usually up to 60%. I guess the number of plaintiffs could be in the tens of thousands. Damages awarded by the court could be $10,000.00 per plaintiff. What tort lawyer worth his weight in greed would not pursue this? And don't tort attorneys typically foot the bill when presented with a no lose case? Can anyone say Merck? The plaintiff's might not get rich, but the company would definately feel the bite (probably settle out of court).
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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But, Tim, like my buddy told me, you have to prove that have full knowledge and did it anyway. No one loss their lives or suffered severe financial loss in any of this. This is anywhere near the level of what Merck was involved in. That is an apples to oranges comparison.
Does it suck? Oh yeah, it does. Is it BS that it was allowed to progress to this point? Yup, it does. Can you prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this vinyl was allowed onto the market in some kind of malicious manner and out of sheer greed? I sincerely doubt that. Did they do something about it? It seems that is the case. Are they honoring the warranties? Again, it seems to be the case.
Do you honestly think that twelve people will, with the comprehension that juries have shown a propensity of, rule that a vinyl company is going to have to fork out 10K apiece for every agrieved party? Sure, that will happen. When? The day after never.
If there was money to made in this case, trust me, my buddy would have been on it like stink on crap. That is what he does for a living. It is his tenacity and thoroughness that got him made a partner in his firm.
Class action suits are fought when, in most cases, where there is sufficient cause and the defendants have equally sufficient deep pockets. As long as the manufacturers meet the warranty they have posted, they are free and clear.
I guess it is like anything else. There are going to be differing opinions among the legal experts about this all. Hell, they found a lawyer greedy enough and twelve people stupid enough to give some grandma millions of dollars because she was too ignorant of the fact that hot coffee is indeed hot and shouldn't be stuck between one's thighs.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6469 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Look at all the energy spent here on a DEAD HORSE. A total of 200+ posts bashing, hashing and rehashing. A legitimate problem....yes. With the power of a group you have stated your case. Let's see what happens.
Avery has been in touch with many of us, myself included, and they have offered to replace the defective product. That is their ONLY obligation. All this lawyer talk is a waste of energy. Have we forgotten that this is the time of year when we appreciate what we have? This is a cost of doing business. We are sign people...failures can happen.
By the time the scum lawyers, (yes, I said scum), get done, you still won't have enough to cover your labor. It simply isn't worth it. So, email Tim Doyle, state your case, replace the bad stuff, and MOVE ON.
I too have been affected, but my first priority is the satisfaction of my client. My clients will never know anything other than it was a bad lot of vinyl, and I am standing behind it....end of story.
[ November 26, 2004, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3510 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I can remember 10 or 12 years ago when both Ford and General Motors started having trouble with paint fading and peeling, mostly on pick up trucks. Of course they blamed it on acid rain, pollution blah blah blah and didn't want to warranty the paint. When the lawyers got involved the customers got their trucks repainted By the way I think lawyers are scum also, but sometimes they come in handy LOL
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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I was working for Ford at the time of the "Owner Dialogue" (re-paint), program. I was the dealership program coordinator. As Ford found out, owner loyalty was NOT secured with that program. As a matter of fact, I'll bet the author of the program is now an assistant janitor at the Rotunda Building, (LOL)
Seriously tho, Avery is obligated to replace the vinyl, but, even if they do, will product loyalty be retained??? Remains to be seen.
[ November 26, 2004, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3510 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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My brother is a judge AND a lawyer and is one of the best men I know. He has helped me through 2 divorces and even married me once (performed the ceremony) against his better judgement.
I think there is good and bad in every profession.
Now I wonder if I can get these 6 rolls of Avery replaced?
Love.....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I've been reading with inteest the post also, and agree with Rick. A dead horse. I wasn't around much when lead was pulled out of paints, lead that caused signpainters harm! I'm sure that many other things in life were once good but now bad. The Vinyl failed, a new adhesive gone wrong? Who really knows but at least they are replacing them! Most warranties do not cover labor! for anything! Now, lets tackle the biffest signmakers problem, dumb customers.
-------------------- Michael A Latham Tee's Me Shirt & Sign 16462 Jefferson Davis Highway Colonial Heights Va. 804-835-3299 signdogopie@aol.com Posts: 379 | From: Colonial Heights, Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
A similar scenario unfolded about 10-12 years ago, when Arlon introduced CalPlus. It took a few months to settle (lets remember, these are large companies, with procedures to adhere to), but in the end, to their credit, Arlon took good care of me, and a few other signmakers I know of. To this day, I have a great deal of respect for Arlon, for stepping up to the plate the way they did. I have little doubt that Avery too, will address this situation, and do what's right.
But listen to some of yourselves...talking about lawyers, and lawsuits...c'mon, get real.
Aren't you glad that OUR customers, who are also victims of this situation aren't over-reacting like this, and threaten to sue US!?
posted
I agree this is a dead horse - I just hate to see a whole bunch of creative time wasted in persuing something that I believe is fruitless. The purpose of this post was not to reopen the issue - but to say let it go. I don't recall seeing it mentioned that all vinyl warranties say basically the same thing, although I easily could have missed that. On the bright side of things at least we aren't bashing one another this time....
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5499 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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So everyone concerned knows... my discussion with my lawyer buddy, who, BTW, is not a scum bag, came up in the normal course of dinner conversation at the Lodge. I did not consult him about this directly.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6469 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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WOW And after all these years a Glue Halo.. OHHHHH Noooo (In my best Billy Crystal Voice)Grabbed the "Rapid Remover" Sprayed a dab on my handy dandy multi purpose 3in1 Sherman Williams Bag-O-Rags rag and wiped it off.. Client was happy and saved $15,000 in lawyers fees and a Carpal tunnel injury.. (attn. Rapid Tac Company. I would like a new Hat please for my Product Endorsement of your Fine product. Now your sales should see at least a .7565% increase due to this post).
Hope everyone had a good Turkey day.
Ohh by the way. Want real Vinyl Problems. Try Coburns Gold Leaf ****e.. 5 years my butt try less then a year.
[ November 27, 2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: William DeBekker ]
posted
Exactly Bill...i have to wonder how many people actually had a customer complain or like a dummy went to a customer who knew no better nor had any problem with the work and pointed out every shortcoming on a 4yo job..... instead of talking them into relettering the job at full price after a sales pitch about the limited life of vinyl and how much better a new fresh look would serve them and their advertising dollar
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3510 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I've been reading with inteest the post also, and agree with Rick. A dead horse. I wasn't around much when lead was pulled out of paints, lead that caused signpainters harm! I'm sure that many other things in life were once good but now bad. The Vinyl failed, a new adhesive gone wrong? Who really knows but at least they are replacing them! Most warranties do not cover labor! for anything! Now, lets tackle the biffest signmakers problem, dumb customers.
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