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I just cant seem to get a good pounce when doing a pattern lately. Ive been doing this for years, but being self taught, I probably do it wrong. Any tricks to getting a good pounce so the powder goes through really good?
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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John, First thing first, make sure to sand the back side of the pounce pattern. Once the little nubbies are gone, the powder/charcoal/chalk goes through much better. It's called a "pounce" not a "rub". Sometimes you have to pound it a bit to make it transfer well.
[ November 23, 2004, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Are you pouncing by hand ? We used to make our easels out of beaverboard, which is no longer available, but it was a good poucing surface. Believe it or not, I get excellent results pouncing on 2 sections of a newspaper. The wheel perforates easily, and there's no sanding with this method. Matter of fact, you can go kinda lightly with the pouncebag and still get a good impression, so less muss and fuss.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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John; are you using thick felt under the paper that you are running your pounce wheel over? are you gingerly turning the pattern over after pouncing to sand with 320 grit sandpaper? are you doing this on a humid day without the air conditioner on? What thickness paper are you using? sometimes I get good results using tracing paper for small jobs, sands really well after pouncing.I remember one job some years ago for a funny car guy was after pouncing the pattern, used gun powder to pounce the letters, hit it with a match after it was pounced, then cleared the mess. the guy loved the effect....
J.G. kurtzman
-------------------- John Kurtzman J.G. Kurtzman Sign Shop 97 Taylor Ave. Norwalk, Ct. 06854
----------------------------------- Creative communication since 1959 Posts: 213 | From: So. Norwalk, Ct. USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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i posted a while back with web page a couple great pounce wheels. i got one just like the one at this web page....and it will be buried with me. http://www.mercerie-rascol.com/c450.html this thing puts HOLES in the paper. do a search on here for pounce wheels and it should come up. also i use black TEMPRA PAINT POWDER instead of the charcoal, its finer and cheaper.
[ November 24, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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all what the others said, I like to use a charcoal stick and a small soft cloth for smaller jobs. The humidity will really close up those holes, too. Once, had no sandpaper, had to rub the pattern on the sidewalk to sand it, True!
I love the Saral paper from Michaels Art Stores, non-oily "carbon paper" comes in colours, great detail possible.
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Sometimes when using our plotter to perforate the pattern, I do it in reverse, and then apply the pattern right side up. This makes sanding unesessary. Also, when using the electric perforator, I can double the paper to get bigger holes like for a wall job.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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John..The best material to pouce a pattern on is a pool table cover. Cover a your easel w/ it, some guy's put it ontop of sheet metal, then u can hold paper w/ magnet or mask. tape w/ hold paper fine.
Years back u could get a used pool table cover fairly cheap, I think I paid 5 bucks if u can live w/ a few cig. burns.
Remember always wear a glove w/ pouncing, or your girlfriend w/nt let u near her...
-------------------- Kent Moss Greg Moss Signs Posts: 363 | From: Wilbraham, MA / Charleston,SC | Registered: Nov 2003
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Electro pounce...no sanding required, far superior detail than with a wheel......NO CRAMPING OF THE HAND!!!!
I use old flannel shirts for pounce bags, you have to beat them on the surface the first time you use them to get them primed, after that just some gentile pats to put some powder out, wipe accross the pattern gently.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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I always have the same problem, John. I have double-plotted on the machine at times. I do run the hand pounce-wheel too. No matter what, I hate it. It makes a mess and wears out your hand. Oftentimes I use a projecter to avoid pouncing. I use an old kid's sock with a few cottom balls in it for a bag. Save any extra sox from your baby girl! I want to try the Saral idea. I also use a wet-transfer method by Stabilo-ing the back of the pattern, spritzing the desired area with window cleaner, squeegeeing the pattern on to it, and that works well. Love....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I always run pounce patterns in reverse on the plotter. The difference is tremendous. I like the idea of using powdered paint too.
J.G., are you STILL smoking that Oaxacan ditchweed? Damn....
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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hey Don, where can I pick up an Electro Pounce for $145.00??
Ill buy one tomorrow if I can get it for that much.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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John, one thing you didn't say was how are you pouncing...with a wheel, a pounce machine, or on a plotter?
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Still doing it the old fashioned way Francisco, with a pounce wheel. Sometimes I get a good one, sometimes I dont. And I do sand the back. Somebody told me how to make an electro pounce, if I can just find where I wrote it down.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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hey John, if you find that electro pounce paper on how to build one, please forward a copy to me
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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[ November 25, 2004, 01:57 AM: Message edited by: Dave Cox ]
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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When my old one was knocked off the table and quit working, I found the phone number for FMS Corporation on the machine. I called and ordered direct from them. That was about 5 or 6 years ago. The new one does not have the phone number on it. Not sure what they cost now from a supply house, but I am sure it would be worth the cost if you make any amount of patterns.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2274 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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I use an Electro pounce myself. I just did the dreaded Gym floor I mentioned a few months ago. But instead of using pouder and then tracing with a pencil ( A local shop recommened this )I used and old trick I did when I was painting aircraft.. I layed the patterns down and used krylon instead of chalk..It worked for me.
-------------------- Gonzalo Curiel Peewee Signs & designs Oroville Ca 95965
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There was an article quite awhile back in Signs of the Times that desribed using an old neon transformer and a reostat to make your own electro pounce.
It had to be at least 15 to 20 years ago. Seems they took an old 5000 volt transformer with one side burnt out and some gto wire and hooked an old fat lead pencil sharpened at both ends.
We made one with the instructions and used an old toyota spark plug boot and a lot (let me insert adamantly the word ALOT )of electrical tape and heat shrink insulation,...needless to say this homemade contraption would draw at the same time it would pounce.
In theory it worked great in the projection room of the billboard shop I worked in in the early eighties. In reality it would light anyone who came near it up! We tried using the reostat to adjust the voltage going to the transformer but to no avail.
It would make the florescent bulbs in the room next door flicker and the intercom in the shop buzz. No one in the huge five rack shop could get any radio reception while it was in use. This was a good thing sometimes as there often as not were at least three different radio stations blaring at once (country,rock and classical make for a confusingly irratating combination of sounds sometimes).
Finally after tha damn thing burnt a hole in someones fingernail and we got tired of smelling burnt graphite as we worked I went and bought myself a "real" electro pounce jr. for $149.00. The shop manager liked it so much he bought one of the deluxe models with the reostat built in and let everyone in the shop off the hook when they drew pattern duty that week.
I still have and use that electro pounce jr. and it is working flawlessly almost twenty years later.
If your like dancing and making strange sounds as 5000 volts go thru your body,I would suggest making your own,....
Other wise go get a new one ,...they work great and hold up to daily use for decades.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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A little over 30 years ago, I found a BIG transformer, no lil 5000 volter! Like Timi, I used a sparkplug wire and a nail, with a couple of rolls of electricians tape.
You had to move fast, or the paper would catch fire....BUT...the day a spark jumped almost 2 inches to my hand....it went into the trash!!!!!!!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think I might call the person I was told that has one for sale.
Though perhaps a little shock treatment might be handy at times.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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If you have a hard time finding a supplier who sells electro pounces, go here and click on the distributors link on the left top menu,...then click on your state,..... http://www.fmsneon.com/
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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One thing about an Electro Pounce, I've never threw a "regular" pounce wheel (Grifhold) across the room. You touch the probe on an E.P. and you're gonna throw that baby; I guarantee it! You can also crank it up to 10 and zap flies, can't do that with a regular pounce wheel. ...but then you can't set paper on fire with one either.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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All my life, when drawing, if I stopped to look at my work, I would rub behind my right ear with my pencil. Haven't done that once since the first time I used my electro-pounce.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2274 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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Anyone that's used an electro-pounce has been "bitten" at least once, that "once" is etched in memory forever, to the minute of the hour of the day. Mine was standing in water(washed out shop-duh), pouncing a pattern when it followed some lead down to my other hand that was supporting me, good zap!!! Propelled me over camper-shell sitting on floor and as it was in days of long hair, totally straightned out, all 2 1/2 feet of it!!!! That was on a electro-jr. My first was a Lionel train transformer, hooked up to a mechanical pen w/metal probe instead of lead. I sealed off handles w/tool-dip, clipped ground to metal and away I went, surprisingly; that one never bite me and I owned it for over 15 yrs. before buying electro-jr. from friend retiring. Go figure!!!
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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John...the best underlayment I've ever found for perferating a pounce patern is a piece of Naugahyde...(use the slick side up)it allows the "spurs" of your wheel to penetrate to their fullest without tearing the paper.
It is extremely easy on the hand and wrist...I was always taught to lift your wheel every 2 to 3 " to keep the pattern from tearing apart(works great also).
A light sanding with some 120 grit and you'll have the finest pounce pattern you have ever experienced.
The up side of this when your thru, just roll it up and stand it in the corner...the sheet I use in the shop is 4'x4' I also keep a small roll 2'x3' in the truck to be used on site when I have the need.
I'll bet you have something in your home made of naugahyde (easy chair?) try it on there see what you think (it won't hurt it).Then you can purchase a piece from your local fabric store.
[ November 27, 2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
You know I just thought twice about trying it out on the easy chair...better you go get a piece from the fabric store ...your wife will be less apt to kill us both
[ November 27, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
Never use a wooden yardstick that has been used for drawing lines on a pattern with a No.2 pencil. Many zappings will occur!
CrazyJack...."but it was kinda fun"
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Hi Everyone, My favorite story about pouncing comes from a man that started out wall dogging in Chicago. As he told the story about making patterns, he said that they were in production mode in those days and they used those "Griffey (Grifhold) pounce wheels with a head as large as a silver dollar". He said that they pounced the patterns so fast that the wheel on the "Griffey" would get so hot that smoke would come off them and they would "haft to lay them down ta cool". Yeah, those were the days.
I remember a Parsons cartoon with a signpainter using a Electro-pounce. Can someone post a copy of it here?
Because you mentioned it, here are my directions to make your own home made pounce machine.
1. Get a pull chain window neon window transformer (5000 volts or so) from your junk pile. Old beer sign transformers work good. Or buy a new one for $35. Don't use a electronic (new style) it won't work. 2. Mount on side of your easel 3. Run a ground wire from the transformer to the sheet metal surface on your easel. 4. Cut off one secondary GTO lead short, and screw on a red wire nut to protect it from shocking you. This lead will not be used. 5. Extend the other lead to a length that will allow you to reach to the far end of your easel with some additional slack. 6. Get a cheap stick BIC pen and slide the guts out of it and discard the guts. 7. Stop by the welding store, or by your welder friend and steal a couple pieces of tungsten that any heli-archers would have laying around. Probably a couple of bucks each. 8. Shove tungsten into one end of BIC pen, and the GTO from the transformer in the other end. Make sure gto and tungsten are touching inside. 9. Let the tungsten protrude a little from the business end. Maybe crush the end on the Bic body before inserting tungsten to help capture and hold 10. Use black tape on gto end to prevent gto from pulling out. 11. Turn on transformer and pounce like a mother. 12. Oh yeah, Always use a metal yard stick for a straight edge wilst pouncing.
Warning for end users. 1. Severe singeing of the hair on the head, neck and muzzle may occur. 2. Sooty discoloration of face could happen. 3. Fracture of the left ear at the stem, causing the ear to dangle in the aftershock with a creaking noise, if used near thinner. 4. Full or partial combustion of whiskers, producing kinking, frazzling, and ashy disintegration. 5. Radical widening of the eyes, due to brow and lid charring.
One more thing, Don't let those crusty old smart guys who have "seen it all and done it all" pee in your corn flakes. Truth is, they once were do-it-yourself type guys. Now that they are rich and famous driving Lexis 450s, they forgot what is was like to save a buck. Have some fun.
posted
Ahh, the Electro Pounce... the smell of burning paper smoke, wafting in the air.
The reminder of days as a kid playing with "greenie stick-um caps" or a nice fresh roll of red caps in your gun. Or when you took a hammer to the whole roll at once! (no wonder I can't hear)
The smell of flesh as you burn an, oh so small, hole into your left index finger. Yes, I remember it well. Great times! I think I'll crank up the Pounce Jr. just for old times sake. Where's my son? Time to share some moments.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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John, I tried a pounce wheel once and didn't care for the buzz so I still use the lil hand held wheels. I went to a fabric shop and got a big butt piece of felt and folded it over down one side and used a staple gun to attatch it to the top back edge of my sign easel. (easel is freestanding on casters, not attached to a wall) I just flip it over the front of my easel and it covers the whole 4'x8' area...lining it up to the lip before stapling it to the top/back is good so you have a neater area to work close to the lip when it's all said and done. I turn my patterns sideways and get all the horizontals (top and bottom baselines, etc.) done first, sand and then run it the other way to get the vertical lines and round strokes on my lettering...makes for a neater pattern. Also, this method was Y2K compliant, lol.
Good luck on your choice and hope you keep a rubber mat under your pouncing area if you do decide against the "unplugged" method lol!
Oooooooh, another tip, if some of you have the eloquent habit of running short on a particular side of round letters/numbers, you can pounce them upside down and then when you paint them right side up, it seems to come out betterer LOL.
posted
Hi, I use my Grifold that's 15 yrs old. Nice long points. Last yr I ordered one for a customer to use and the points are now stubby. The company denied that the machining had changed. I asked if they are made in China. No. I ordered a vinyl air release tool from Ameriban and it works pretty well. It's a multi point wheel and makes actual holes. If I could just remember to draw in reverse, also, it would work great!
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, but Rick Sack's idea is pretty creative for plotted patterns. I would never have thought about doing that.
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You can also crank it up to 10 and zap flies, can't do that with a regular pounce wheel. ...but then you can't set paper on fire with one either.![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
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