posted
I have sold and I am currently making a two sided hanging sign about 35"x 48"wide. Text and outline are outsourced to a CNC router. They will get gold leaf. THe pictoral protion will be of a wine bottle and some grapes & grape leaf, fit in about a 15" square area.
Should I... 1) Glue on another piece of HDU to both sides where this relief carving is going to go and carve it attached to the sign? 2)Should I carve the bottle and grapes out of a scrap piece and attach it to the sign "applique" style when it is done with Gorrilla glue? 3) should I just carve into the existing 2" foam for my layout?
I don't really like option 3 because I have only tinkered with carving before and I like the idea of being able to start over if I screw up. If I just start hacking away at the sign face it feels like I only have one sound chance at getting it right.
I like option 2 the best because I could carve the two pieces at the same time, side by side. And I wouldn't have to be handling the this heavy big sign to carve these smaller areas. But how to get it mounted would be my next question...
Learn as I go. What is your advice?
[ November 23, 2004, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Philip Steffen ]
-------------------- Phil Steffen, 29 Van Rensselaer St City of Saratoga Springs DPW Saratoga Springs NY 12866 Posts: 563 | From: beautiful Saratoga Springs NY | Registered: Aug 2001
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I would go with option 2, and maybe use epoxy instead of gorilla glue, due to the fact that the gorilla glue will "foam" as it expands, and might be a bear to clean-up around the details of the grapes (if I envision it correctly)
It would help to be able to do it seperatly in case it does get messed up.
Will it be mounted below a hanging arm?
Is the HDU already at the CNC?
If not, maybe you could sandwich two 3/4" thick pieces of HDU around some aluminum flat stock that would stick out the top for a mounting point.
I have done this with larger signs with MDO in the middle also (for some strength to avoid a "bust-through" from a flying object), with the aluminum flat stock bolted through the MDO, and then epoxied tho the HDU, and you could litterally hang your body weight from the sign. Very strong. Does this help?
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1873 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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Option 2 is a good one. Epoxie glue is the ticket.
My only suggestion is that if the carved elements are inside an outline, (15" area?), I would have the router cut out that area to a depth equal to the depth of the carvings. Then apply the carvings to that area. This would add a rich look and the carvings won't protrude away from the sign. I don't think you'll have to pay much more for the CNC or if the work has already been done you could route it with a hand router.......should be easy enough.
Joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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The sign is getting CNCed already so the glue together option Bob is suggesting is great, but too late. It makes me wonder though if I should drill into the sign quite a ways and put in some steel rod, to act like rebar. Do you think it would help?
-------------------- Phil Steffen, 29 Van Rensselaer St City of Saratoga Springs DPW Saratoga Springs NY 12866 Posts: 563 | From: beautiful Saratoga Springs NY | Registered: Aug 2001
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The base of the sign is 1.5" HDU. The rifle, was carved seperately, using 3/4" HDU.
First, I carved the rifle, then layed out the rest of the sign. Using the rifle as a template, for where to lay down the sandblast mask. The rifle, was to sit atop a raised area.
**Since you are routing instead of blasting, I like Joe's suggestion, to inset the area where the carving is to be placed on the sign.***
For the rifle, I started with 3/4", but ended up with maybe 1/2". Since I didn't want the rifle to stick outward too much, and requested no more than a 1/4" blast depth.
I used PB Fast Set, to attach the rifle, after the sign was blasted. I weighed it down, like a good girl, but since it was my first time using the 'quick' stuff, I didn't realize it was like Gorilla Glue and would expand.
The oooze and expansion, was my biggest nightmare. I had a heck of a time keeping the rifle in place, while the goo was expanding. I bit my tongue and babysat for a good 15 minutes... Afterwards, I chipped and sanded the roughage and went on with my bad self.
I distressed the (shiny, silver) paint, by airbrushing black into all the cracks and such. Then, with a rag and mineral spirits, I started rubbing it away. This created the distressed appearance, added demension and toned down the sheen. It looks like pewter.
Hope this helps!
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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If I recall correctly, this sign measured 18" x 48". For a backing plate, I used 1/8" aluminum stock, cut to size, with a 1/4" recess from all edges. Attached using lots of stainless screws!
Hope this helps...
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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Philip, If I loaded the photos right, here is an example of my latest carving endeavor. The 2nd sample below shows it in one of the stages before paint. I carved the images first, and then polyurethane glued them to the board. I just made sure there were plenty of clamps and a few brad nails to boot.
[ November 22, 2004, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Phil, is the sign such a shape that you could "wrap" the sign with flat stock, or at least run it down the sides, and drive some # 14 x 2" stainless screws into it? I would be hesitant to drill and install steel rod, if the sign isn't too thick. It might create a weak point. Any way you could post some more details? A copy of the design?
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1873 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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Phillip, if you can run steel down the outside edges of your sign, it will help to support it. In the future you might seriously consider making two faces and laminating them back to back, with dibond or plywood in the center for strength. You can also install your hangars at the same time, and have a very solid sign.
We no longer make double-faced HDU signs out of solid HDU - too many failures; a broken sign does nothing for our reputation. I haven't bought anything thicker than 1" or occasionally 1&1/2" in several years, and all our HDU signs get some sort of internal support between the faces.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I hope this picture loads of the basic design concept. The pictoral of the bottle and grapes & leaf were merely for scale and layout. They won't look like that. This is a two sided sign. I think it might be difficult to "wrap the sign" as Bob suggested with flat stock just because of the more complicated shape, or am I wrong?
I'm trying to make it rigid. Next time I will go with the two faces wit an interior structure/frame
-------------------- Phil Steffen, 29 Van Rensselaer St City of Saratoga Springs DPW Saratoga Springs NY 12866 Posts: 563 | From: beautiful Saratoga Springs NY | Registered: Aug 2001
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Phillip, can you show us where the attachment points will be on the sign? Is this sign going to swing or be fixed?
One of the problems with HDU is that the manufacturers don't offer any guidance as to how to create panels that have sufficient beam strength to withstand various conditions. Sign makers are left to discover on their own that what works with wood will not necessarily work with HDU.
Don't get me wrong, I love HDU as use it all the time. I've had to learn - the hard way - what will and will not work when building and installing signs with it.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The suggested bracket looks something like this.
Seeing how I am going to make it myself, it can be changed as needed, although my skill level is not amazing. Perhaps I will need to sub it out to create a more complicated, but functional & successful bracket.
All help & suggestions are greatly appreciated.
[ November 23, 2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Philip Steffen ]
-------------------- Phil Steffen, 29 Van Rensselaer St City of Saratoga Springs DPW Saratoga Springs NY 12866 Posts: 563 | From: beautiful Saratoga Springs NY | Registered: Aug 2001
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Cam Bortz Makes beautiful and heavy duty scroll brackets. We won one that he donated to the Looney Letterhead meet.
For 7 years now we have been sandwiching 3/4" MDO inside the double sided HDU carved signs we make in house. We cut the MDO so that the total dimensions are 1/4" narrower than the HDU/ We glue the panels together with West System Epoxy. We seal the edges with the West Systems and their filler (fairing compund). The filler makes it easy to sand. Then we prime with 2 coats of Sign Foam brand primmer followed by 2 coats of One Shot.
HAving the MDO center makes it nice to install screweyes or screws for the brackets./ If it is a sign that will be slid down into a slot in the posts , we extend the MDO out about 1.5 inches on each side. The MDO will be edge sealed with the West Sytems \epoxy/ filler mixture, then primed with 3 coats of Sign Foam Primer or Jay Cooke's Primer then painted with 3 coats of One Shot. The West Sytems Epoxy is made for boat building, so it is a bit flexible when the wood expands and contracts with temperature change. We have MDO signs our for 10 years now- and they look like new- no signs of the edges failing.
Diane Balch
Diane Balch.
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1695 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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I know absolutely NOTHING about HDU, but I am very familiar with MDO. I love the stuff.
Diane's suggestion of sandwiching a sheet of MDO cut out in the sillouette of your panel (but a 1/4" shy all the way around, if I understood her correctly) sounds marvellous to me.
[ November 23, 2004, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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Phil, I posted a photo, of what might work. I hope the photo is semi-clear.
Take some flat stock (longer than needed), and make the bends as shown.
Try not to make the one bend "meet" the inside corner. Give yourself some leeway.
Trim the excess off, which will be easier than trying to match all the bends exactly.
Drill, and countersink, and drive some # 14 x 2" stainless steel sheetmetal screws into the HDU.
This might be a good option, considering you are kind of working it in reverse.
As far as using steel as opposed to aluminum, I personally prefer aluminum. It obviously does not corrode like steel, but it is tricky to bend without cracking. It has to be heated enough to bend it, but not too much to destroy the properties of the metal.
Steel will bend beautifully with some heat, but must be sealed well with some good primer, and paint to prevent some rust streaking down the face of the sign.
Just some options.
I hope this info is helpful.
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1873 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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Bob- great idea. Thanks so much for the work.
Diane- thanks to you also
...I should know better. I guess there is always the next sign to make correctly.
[ November 24, 2004, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Philip Steffen ]
-------------------- Phil Steffen, 29 Van Rensselaer St City of Saratoga Springs DPW Saratoga Springs NY 12866 Posts: 563 | From: beautiful Saratoga Springs NY | Registered: Aug 2001
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Phil: My only total failure was a 36 X 48 HDU sign made from 1 1/2 signfoam. I installed two 8" eyebolts with the nuts left on in oversized holes that were filled with West Systems epoxy. Three months later the sign came crashing to the street in an extreme wind storm. Fortunately it happened at 3:00 AM. I now think about liability...a lot. Any hanging sign over 3 square feet (18 X 24) gets a plywood core or backing. If you can add a solid metal base and through hangers you might sleep better. Good luck.
-------------------- Rob Root Root Cellar Signs Waubaushene, rob@rootcellarsigns.ca
point and click until it works Posts: 55 | From: Waubaushene, Ont. Canada | Registered: Apr 1999
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I like Bob's sketch and suggestion; I might suggest a further ninety-degree bend at the bottom of the sides to go under the flat edges of the panel.
Phil, if you want a nice custom bracket for this, I can fix you right up.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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