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My apologies once again to my son and the board for using Latigo's name and password. Very bad form and I won't do it again.
I spoke to "THE" man at Avery this afternoon and my lab friend shortly thereafter. This is how it is as far as Avery is concerned, There has been NO recall. Ther has been NO across the board failure. There has been NO reformulation of adhesive on the coating line and NO attempt to duplicate another adhesive. Would it surprise you to know that most all acrylic adhesives come from the same source?
Avery IS monitoring all of this and is very concerned at the apparent rash of problems and willing and anxious to correct whatever you percieve as a shortcoming in that particular roll. If you have ANY problem whatsoever with any aspect of Avery films, contact your dealer immediately. An Avery rep will immediately follow up on whatever your particular problem might be. If your dealer is giving you different story.... call Avery direct! The're happy to talk to you.
As for me, I've experienced none of what you're discussing although there is an apparent problem of some kind going on. I'm very good at analyzing film and installation problems. The possibilities are nearly endless depending on a load of factors. I won't kid you or myself in saying that a bunch of pictures is going to give me, or you, an answer. I'd have to physically be there and see it for myself, HOWEVER....... at least one or two pictures were apparent installation problems. The one where the film installed on rivets and pulled away, (marginal rivet installation BTW) was apparent to me. There are two levels between the panels, albeit minor. You CANNOT bridge two levels and then heat sink the film into the differential gap unless you're using film who's memory COMPLETELY releases with heat. There is no such critter. The film MUST be suqeegeed right up to the second level and then rolled over the edge and continued on. You may then cut the film at the join. OR.........(least desireable) install the area as two seperate pieces. Following that procedure will negate the need for heat sinking the film into the seam. Correct film installation, particularly where rivets and corregation are concerned, is a non-forgiving science. You do it right or it comes right back to you. Maybe not tomorrow nor even next month, but eventually. Every substrate has its own peculiarities for the installer. Surface prep, heat, lack of heat, condensation seen and unseen, UV exposure of a fixed, south facing substrate in the southern part of the US all come into play. Some of you use installaion fluids and aids. If it works for you........ do it. The last film problem our little hole-in-the-wall experienced was back in the late 80s with Arlon's across the board failure of all films/colors containing lampblack. We have truly not experienced one single film failure with Avery in the 18 years of distributing their films nor have any of our customers. We have also never done anything other than dry mounts in our entire history, and that includes 48" wide films on pamnels. Does being in the norwest corner of Monatana have something to do with it? I don't know and don't have a good guess.
I hope all of you get your problems resolved, but if you don't it won't be because Avery isn't paying attention and doing their best to take care of you.
Thank you for your time, and stay low. The times are a changin'.
I would like to know why "THE" man has not come to this board himself and addressed this problem.
I don't think the failures I have going on are from misinstallation.
I have several photos of several different colors that show shrinkage with a glue halo of at least 1/8" up to 3/8". I will post some photos later...don't have time right now.
My supplier told me that Avery removed the "bad" (lot numbers in question) vinyl from their inventory...if that's not a recall it's damm close.
The rep I had here Friday clearly saw the shrinkage on several rolls I have here but I have not heard back from him yet so I'm still in the dark as to what they are going to do about it.
I would REALLY LIKE TO GET SOME ANSWERS FROM THE MAN!!!!!
Jeff
[ November 08, 2004, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Spradling ]
-------------------- Jeff's Lettering Lisa,Luke,Dara, and Jeff Spradling 5742 Shattuck Rd. Belvidere, Il. 61008 815-544-0167
Surviving another day. Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
The first indication I had of problems with this vinyl was when it would not stay shrunk down on the rivets. I called Avery tech and talked with Tim Doyle, when I gave him the code numbers from my rolls he immediately said "I know what your problem is" send us some samples and we'll replace the material.The trailer seam was done exactly as you prefer to do, the gap is not from splitting at the seam it was cut at the seam and then it SHRUNK. I spoke yesterday with a rep from one of my vendors, they have been exhanging a LOT of Avery, turns out there are 4 other shops within 100 miles of me that are having the same problems with shrinkage. One of them is a large nationwide franchise, they have switched at this one store from Avery to 3M. At another store this rep picked up over a dozen rolls of Avery in one day that were SHRINKING on the roll. This is Averys problem not a installation problem.
(edited for typos caused by typing before morning coffee)
[ November 09, 2004, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Mark Perkins ]
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I didn't realize anyone was having problems with Avery too. We did 7 or 8 cop cars with reflective within about a 3 months time frame. We have had to start replacing the vinyl with 3M because the vinyl is loosening at the edges and coming off.
Is anyone else having this problems?
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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I lost an account that spent over $3,000 a year with me because of bad gold and silver metalics and the shrinkage line. I also had to replace the lettering on a couple of signs where the reds were faded to a light pink after only about 16 months outside. Funny I never had this problem with Universal Products vinyl. BTW, did you know that the 5 year non-compete is up and Universal Products is now back in business and selling vinyl again?
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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In defense of Avery, they more than made up for the problem in product. No, they didn't come here and do the work, but they did back up their product. Kudos for them! Give this email address a try. This guy was very helpful.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3488 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the person using the other person's password to make this post. I am familiar with Jeff and his desire to do quality work. It seems whenever a person has a problem that they want to discuss on this board, there is always somebody entering into the discussion who attacks their procedures -- kind of condescending like -- as if that person was a rookie and embarking on their first job. I assure you Jeff's no rookie, and if he's had success on too many jobs to mention and then he has a problem, we should all pay attention.
I too recently noticed a vinyl glue line on a cargo van I did in April of this year. It was significant enough that I called Jane into the shop to take a peek at it. The van was in an accident and brought back to our shop to have the vinyl replaced after the repairs were made. This was a white Ford cargo van with no rivets. The vinyl was all A8 black. The application method was dry. I've been installing vinyl since '89. I can count on 1 hand the amount of problems I have had with vinyl, but I have had some.
I am always suspicious of anyone who says they have never had a problem. Never say never.
If Avery has a problem, they need to come clean. I will probably order another brand until the dust settles around here. We used to use Calon II, but our rolls were coming in with a haze on them, and I didn't like having to heat the vinyl to clear the haze. I like A8, the way it weeds, cuts and the gloss it has. I'm not one to send vinyl back and keep track of lot #'s like I should. If the product doesn't measure up to my standards I seek out a new product. In this business I have learned to adapt to try to take care of my customers. My customers don't want to hear excuses and neither do I.
Excuses are rampant in our society today. Our forefathers would roll over in their graves if they were aware of all the weasling around out there. We're going to be building trash piles on top of trash piles in this throw away society of ours if we don't start mending our ways.
[ November 09, 2004, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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I just received a phone call from Avery. For legal reasons they can’t come to this board and post any type of response as to what is going on. Nor can I discuss my conversation with them.
All I can say on their behalf is if you have a complaint, contact your supplier.
Be patient, they are very busy people right now.
Thanks Jeff
-------------------- Jeff's Lettering Lisa,Luke,Dara, and Jeff Spradling 5742 Shattuck Rd. Belvidere, Il. 61008 815-544-0167
Surviving another day. Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote: For legal reasons they can’t come to this board and post any type of response as to what is going on. Nor can I discuss my conversation with them.
Can you spell CLASS ACTION???
Sounds like pure CYA...
I sympathize with Avery, mistakes can happen on a corporate level; but it sure sounds like they are trying to make the problem go away by burying their head in the sand, and fixing up with the few squeaky wheels rather than admit (pubicly ) that there is a problem.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Jeff....Are you sure that they said "legal" reasons and not "financial" reasons???
So far I have not experienced any of the shrinkage problems that some other folks have. I use Avery A8 for about 80% of my work, with the remainder being in 3M/Greber, when I am using cast vinyl.
I have only had one failure so far and Avery or my supplier (hard to know which) came good for the material costs of the replacement with no hassles. SO I, personally, have no beef with Avery at all. Hopefully these problems will stay south of the border and not immigrate to Canada.
However, I can't believe there would be an actual "legal" reason why Avery or one of it's representatives couldn't address this issue directly on this forum.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Mike, if they were just trying to bury their heads in the sand, they wouldn't be personally calling those who have expressed problems or concerns here.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Whether legal, or financial, the stance that Avery has taken in this matter has absolutely convinced me to stay the hell away from using any of their product, and I'm very likley not alone. What I expect is for "The Man" to be forthcoming, and take some form of RESPONSIBILITY. Unfortunately these days, those at the top are far more likley to take refuge behind the weasel words proffered by their legal council, rather than taking the stance that "the buck stops here." Our clients rightfully expect us to be responsible and accountable. If we can't depend upon our suppliers to walk the same walk that we do, then I feel it's time to re-valuate them as suppliers. Actions DO speak much louder than words....or in this case, the lack of them.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3488 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
My name is Tim Doyle and I am the Technical Service Manager for Avery Dennison. Avery does have a complaint process in place and we highly encourage you to contact your local distributor if you have a problem. Avery Dennison does have a product warranty as stated on each one of our factory cartons. We will stand behind our product as warranted.
Please note that Avery does monitor this site and would like to address the concerns. Please contact your distributor for further communication.
-------------------- Tim Doyle Avery Dennison 8695 Seward Road Hamilton, OH 45011 Posts: 19 | From: Hamilton Ohio | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim, thanks for tuning in. My main Avery distributor is aware of my problem and the posts concerning this problem. I have 2 other suppliers that also have shipped this product, and I will contact them as well.
My problem is -- one of my suppliers cuts A8 out of a larger roll and ships 10 yards without a core, so I can't check lot numbers. I hate to throw eveything away, so it occurred to me that if it is a lot problem and not an across the board problem, I may hang on to the vinyl provided I know a few details.
1) How long on an average does it take for the shrinkage to take place and leave a glue line. I could always do some test panels and view the results. If a roll passes the test, it should be good to go, right?
2) If there is a glue line, does this mean I can expect the vinyl to seperate from the glue, or the edges to curl prematurely. This would be a situation I would want to monitor. There is no sense in calling all my customers and saying I'm going to replace work if I don't really need to.
3) If this is an 8 year product and because of the shrinkage it will no longer reach that longevity, what longevity can I expect. If it will last 5 and the project only needs to last 3, then that will certainly help.
4) If the shrinkage has nothing to do with longevity, could it be removed with a product such as Rapid Remover without harming the film.
If #4 is possible that would really help me, because I often times will stack colors on top of each other for a desired effect. If the bottom color fails -- I'm screwed. I may be screwed anyway, but it's always good to have hope.
I would just as soon have the straight skinny, good or bad, so I can plan accordingly. I hope you can give me some answers right away. If you can't I assume the problem is deep rooted and your company doesn't know how to best deal with the situation. Doing nothing or making spot promises could cause hard feelings. Sign makers do visit with each other and share concerns. We can be forgiving in certain cases as long as someone doesn't try to pull the wool over our eyes.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Awhile back I also had problems with avery reflectives (the good stuff) and I believe it was due to the adhesive they were using at the time. It was 'quick' release or something to that effect.
They have since made the adhesives more aggressive. I haven't had a problem since.
As a super safe measure, try and heat the reflective after installing with a heatgun to activate the adhesive quicker.
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Give this email address a try. This guy was very helpful.
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