A few questions though. I'm not sure how it will be handled. If they ask for the original bill and tack on removal time I think your idea is great. With removal and clean up, each of these jobs will take longer than the first time around.
Or will it be based purely on time and materials? Do they go by a "little blue book" or estimate software that says it should take so many hours to complete a specific job? Then having to send pics and measurements to document material use. Maybe something similar to Jeff's job/plot spreadsheet.
Is it possible that certain suppliers are going out on a limb to help and keep their customers? Then duking it out with Avery to get compensated themselves.(save face, lose a$$) Or are they just the middleman shuffling paperwork?
Hey, it least its friday. :)
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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As you know, no vinyl manufacturer's warranty (not even 3M's) covers anything beyond replacing defective materials.
HOWEVER:
Your supplier (or supplier's rep) should be smart enough to recognize the commercial value (lifetime value of your business) of ensuring your satisfaction...and should be proactive about advocating on your behalf (and on behalf of their other clients) for proper compensation (labour costs of removal and re-installation, administrative costs, etc).
In a previous sales career with a major distibutor here, in Canada, I was successful in obtaining full compensation (including labour, etc) for clients who had experienced product failures...so it can definitely be done.
Your supplier needs to be prepared to present AVERY with an iron-clad case - and you need to be prepared to help them with documentation and by being clear (and reasonable, of course) about what it will take to satisfy you (and your clients).
Sitting back and watching this unfold, AVERY seems to be in some kind of denial - hoping this will all blow over - when they should be in damage control mode. It isn't like they are unaware of this thread.
Someone with a backbone needs to stand up to their legal and accounting departments and make them understand that the damage to their brand and the lifetime value of the customers they will lose is far more costly than whatever it will cost to be proactive about setting things straight.
2 cents from the peanut gallery.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I'm repeating my previously unaddressed post:
Mr. Bill said:
quote:The company has chosen to not offer an explanation. They claim that there is a process we need to follow so they can honor their warranty.
I think it would be a great idea, & necessary thing, for you or the company to type out in a reply on this thread, specifically what that 'process' is . . . . .
Alan reiterated the questions that could be answered by describing this mysterious "process".
Should be fun finding out. A roll's worth of vinyl to comp for 3 or 4 jobs would be pretty raw.
As mentioned before, there are plenty of other quality brands to chose from should these guys take the low road. No matter how good they claim to be, once they give you a good stickin' its time to part ways.
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Just think of the folks who do not read this board and are unaware of the problem stated here. I'm glad I know about it, even though it'll wind up costing me something. It wouldn't have cost me near as much though if the company would have removed the stock from suppliers shelves as soon as they were aware of a problem, rather than assume a bunch of sign makers could be hood winked which is what I'm getting from all this. It's almost as though they surveyed the situation and made a decision that the whole thing would go away or go unnoticed. I can't believe a problem that existed almost for an entire year was allowed to persist, and that the company didn't hop right in there and remove the defective stock. If you think about it it's almost like they don't care for us. I want you all to think about that!
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I spent 2 hrs Friday night cutting, weeding, masking, etc. I spent a full 8 hrs Saturday stripping and re-installing on four sides of an '03 Chevy Van.
Be warned, this garbage A8 is HELL to get off. The vinyl separates and leaves the adhesive on the vehicle. Plan DOUBLE the normal time for stripping!
Thanks to Avery, I even missed the Ohio State/Michigan game yesterday and the bucks won.
I can't wait to see how my distributor will handle this debacle. Well, on to the next unhappy customer!
posted
This posting isn't to zero in on any one product line. However ...after reading every post (some more than once) it has occured to me one question hasn't been asked here.
If all vinyls were created by the same manufacturer(and they are not) does it mean that all vinyls would shrink the same amount if they had no adhesive on the back side?
It seems odd to me that the vinyl receeds but the adhesive stays put.
Since there has been no one willing to step up and tell us exactly what is wrong here (and the opportunity certainly exists) how are we to know whether it is the vinyl or the adhesive that is substandard.
It also seems to me that the sooner someone steps up and fully explains what the problem is, the sooner everyone will go about their business.
As it turns out I have found several rolls of vinyl in my shop that are showing the same characteristics of the problem as described here.. the most interesting was a window job we did and 2 weeks after we kept seeing gooey black stuff on the suface of the "decal" at first we couldn't account for it ...then came this post...I went back and investigated...yep the vinyl had shrunk back and the window washer had been smearing the exposed adhesive across the face of the sign with his squeegee and yes it is "brand x" a color substitute had been provided in lieu of 3m...it's our fault I suppose (because we accepted the substitute) but this roll will be going back along with a claim.
At any rate back to the original question "Is it the vinyl or the adhesive" Or does anyone (absolutely) know for sure?
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Monte, it's kinda like the old, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" or "How many licks to the center of a Tootsie Pop?" I'm just waiting to see who is the first client to come back wanting a re-do when I'm too broke to even buy Christmas presents. Love....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I recieved an IM from someone that I seemed to have offended asking this question...while I understand it may be a mote point I for one would like to understand (exactly) what the problem is...I don't think thats an unreasonable request.
Do any of you?
Seems odd to me that only certain colors are doing it.This would imply they shut down between colors and change glues.
Sound right to you?
Look ...I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt...problem is there is no attempt to clear the doubt.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
On the truck I just re-did, the only vinyl affected was Avery A8 Cardinal red & black that came off 24" rolls.
I also installed some smaller graphics on the same truck in red & black that came off 15" rolls from my inventory, and they're perfect. Just the way the should be.
I do have some suspect metallic gold. Haven't been back to see the truck yet. I'll let you know.
posted
A simple failure analysis would narrow it down! 1. Not all the vinyl shrinks = a bad batch. 2.Glue stays in place = vinyl film is the failure mode. 3. Not limited to one color = not a pigment problem.
Since the vinyl film is shinking, either the vinyl polmer or the placticizers are not to specifications....or a compounding error. Compounding error is unlikely because more than one color was affected. A look at the Incomming Quality Control tests should show if it was a materials problem!
Just my 2 cents worth!
[ November 22, 2004, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I was'nt offended at all by the question . . .merely incredulous . . .
And from a legal, or consumer rights stand-point, it's dangerous to begin breaking down which element of the material failed. Focus rather on the bottom line: The material failed. Period.
Otherwise, you're opening MORE doors for the supplier to fudge and dilly-dally on the process & positive action of correcting the problem... (as if they need more doors).
It is entirely up to them to find out from the manufacturer what happened and deal with retrieving their own compensation, AFTER they address the immediate needs of the consumer.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Monte, I don't know why anyone would be offended by your questions, and I am also wondering why there isn't an explanation myself. Knowledge of the process is a good thing. If you remember the Firestone tire recall some time back, after the problem was brought to light, there were diagrams showing why the tires were failing.
As I stated before, it would have been in the best interest of the company, to have removed suspicious films from distributor's warehouses as soon as a problem was identified to spare the installer in the field the embarassment of having to go through what several of us are going through now.
By knowing what to look for, we might also be able to develope a plan to resolve these problems with our valued customers. For instance, some of the shrinkage is minimal and I for one would like to know from a chemist or techie in the production of these films what to look for in terms of overall failure. All vinyl shrinks, some more than others, but leaving a glue line behind is a different problem -- one I have yet to see. If the glue line is tiny, my question would be, "can it be removed with a cleaner?" Will the vinyl continue to hang in there after that, or will the cleaning problem make things worse. Obviously if the vinyl is not going to curl and peel off even with a glue line, then a sign along the highway is probably one you don't have to concern yourself with. Divide and conquer in this case. Isolate the jobs that are going to have to have immediate attention from those that can be dealt with later. Knowing colors and roll sizes to look for, lot numbers -- anything -- will help those of us in the field arrive at a plan of attack.
As this thing unfolds what I am seeing is that we are getting different stories from different reps and distributors. Avery, if you are listening, please speak up with a single voice and give us some answers. The longer we are kept in limbo, the more you are hurting your chances that many of us will ever use your products.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:They also said Avery reps came and cleared their shelves. Replacing all defective material that was manufactured in an 8 month period starting around the new year and claiming it is safe to start using the brand again after the supplier's materials have been replaced. Think I'll wait a month or two before/if I switch back.
Thanks guys, I'll be on the look out. I have heard before that junk from the US gets sent to argentina and Australia.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I thought this discussion in another sign industry forum might be of interest to those of you who are fightin' mad about this whole Avery issue.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Jon..As you know I buy my Avery products mainly thru your previous employer's London location.
As of a couple of weeks ago, when I asked, Bob had only had 2 rolls of 15" material returned because of shrinkage. Bob showed them to me and it was very minimal but it did affect the way the material fed thru the sproket fed machines. I have one roll of 24" material that has about 1/32" shrinkage.
So far this problem seems to be confined to the US...I certainly hope that it doesn't migrate northward!!!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I suggest that people concerned about this vinyl problem look into what the warranties say regarding the vionyl products they are using, you will find that most all the manufacturers warranties read the same.
Bottom line, be happy if they replace your roll of vinyl. Labor is not covered by any of the manufacturers I checked so far. But I shall continue to investigate warranty policies.
Oh and vinyl that is said to have a life of say 3,6,7,8 years, is only a manufacturers recommended lifespan. They dont warranty it for that long. Boy was that a surprise to me. Avery warranties their product for 1 year from date of original purchase (not installation date) 2 other manufacturers warranty their products the same way.
The point Im getting at is you need to read the fine print. EVERY manufacturer named on this subject so far has had their problems at one time or another. I guess it comes down to how the people you purchase it from handles your claim.
But I still think it would be appropriate for someone from Avery to step up to the plate and straighten this thing out or theyre bound to lose ALOT of customers just on word of mouth alone.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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As I see it, there are some positive things that can come out of a poor situation like this; you can come out of it with more knowledge about the products you use and/or a better way to prepare yourself for future problems.
In the last few weeks I personally have spent more time on the phone than I probably do in a few years. One of my conversations has been with a former employee of A vinyl manufacturer. Some of you may already know some of the things I have learned, but this is for those that don’t.
I can’t or won’t go through some of the technical stuff I've learned...only because I don’t type that fast and it would just take too long.
The (hp) vinyl starts out in a liquid form...it's run thru rollers to get the correct thickness (although that thickness can vary slightly for color matching needs)...then the vinyl is put on casting paper.
The adhesive is put on a separate backing paper, then the backer with the adhesive on it is heated up and the vinyl is transferred from the casting paper to the adhesive covered backer.
Those are 60" wide rolls and can be made at a rate of 500’-600’ per minute. Some color/lots may run for 24-30 hours at a time. (You can do the math) The factory keeps "retains" of each roll of each lot for future reference. (You know...in case there’s a problem)
Something I was told a few years ago but I’ll add for those that don’t know...the adhesive consists of microscopic bubbles of a two part glue...when you squeegee the vinyl down you pop those bubble and activate the curing process that takes 24-48 hours. Hence...adhesive backed pressure sensitive vinyl (stickers, decals, those sticking stencil letters, etc.)
I found the above info interesting. If I have any of it wrong let me know or if someone can enlighten us more please do.
The person I received some of the info above from had some speculation as to what may be causing our problem but I don’t see the point in mentioning that stuff because as the person that told me this said..."because it could be any one of a number of things, only Avery could tell us what really caused it".
As others have requested...I would like to know the cause...not only to be more knowledgeable, but to be able to tell my customers more than just "the vinyl has failed"
As for one of your questions Bill D.,
I was told by someone the vinyl will likely not shrink more than the 1/4" that I’m seeing and it most likely will not begin to come off. I question...if you clean off the glue around the vinyl with a cleaner, it can’t help but affect the adhesive at the edge of the vinyl causing future failure.
I have one truck that the black has shrunk enough that the white reflective on top is coming loose.
So far I haven’t seen any of my jobs that can be handled any other way but a complete replacement.
Best of luck to all those affected by this!
Jeff
-------------------- Jeff's Lettering Lisa,Luke,Dara, and Jeff Spradling 5742 Shattuck Rd. Belvidere, Il. 61008 815-544-0167
Surviving another day. Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Well stated Jeff, You can find some of the info. you speak of on my site www.rapidtac.com As to the question of "what is the problem" my info. from the field (R.T. customers) started early this year, folks were relating shrinkage as well as poor bonding (comming loose later).
I would suspect the adhesive, I think its not holding onto the film agressivly enough, film by itself (without adhesive holding it down) would shrink drastically, especially when introduced to the elements (u.v.heat).
The adhesive is supposed to hold the film to the substrate and protect from shrinking.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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My supplier just got back to me about the list of colors. Though she was very helpful and genuinly concerned she said they still don't have all of the details but are working on it. At least they're being honest.
She did say Black, I-Gold, Cardinal Red, & Saphire Blue are the biggest culprits across the board. Its all being based on the Lot #s. and everything would need to be cross referenced. She did add, if you're having problems with any other colors, take pics, bring it to their attention and they will get on it.
Looks like we have to make our own list based on colors mentioned in this post.
Wish I could help more.
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Though we haven't had much trouble with the A8 we buy (from the same supplier Jeff S. buys from), I haven't gone out and looked at installed signs either. I suspect we have at least a few problems - if not many.
With all the talk and commonality in our shared experiences with Avery's A8, it seems to me that the next step is organization to join in any class-action suits that may be warranted from the lack of liability exposure that Avery seems to be avoiding with their silence on the issue. So I decided to let them know - and perhaps to force a response out of them.
Here is what I wrote in an email to their corporate offices. It may generate no response - but it IS fair warning that an angry end-user exists out there - and not just in the U.S. and Canada.
Avery Dennison,
As you must be well aware of by now, there is a growing sentiment among signmakers around the world at starting a class action lawsuit against Avery Dennison for the failure of the A8 vinyl. We've used A8 for all our red, blue, black and white for many years now with the Earl Mich Co. as our only supplier. I haven't gone out yet to see any of our installed jobs - and whether there is shrinkage or not - but I'm sure we must have some jobs that have gone bad with the amount we use.
We haven't seen it in our stock in the office - and we have a list of the roll numbers that were suspect so we are watching closely. I must tell you, this is NO small matter as it involves thousands of your end users. You had better step forward soon and address this situation before this whole thing gets tangled up in the legal system.
The longer you wait, the more irate and organized people in the sign business will be. The internet forums are FULL of comments about this problem - and our society is made much smaller with access to people around the world through the Internet. And with lawyers licking their chops for things such as this, damage control is your only weapion right now. I'll join in the lawsuit myself - unless there is some sort of comment that Avery Dennison makes to allay the fears and anger we all feel towards an otherwise fine product. As I said, right now I haven't looked at installed jobs - but with Thanksgiving weekend coming up you can bet I'll be driving around at a few sites with our signs installed.
You are going to lose a HUGE share of the market now with your silence - and 3M is already there to lap it up. I STRONGLY suggest you comment soon so the organization required to generate a class action suit is stopped now. But I'm afraid that train is already a-rolling!!
I look forward to your reply.
I'll send along their reply - if I get one, that is.
In the mean time, don't rule out anything. Collectively, we can all quit working for the aforementioned "Guinea Pig Sign Company" if we stand together, should the situation merit so.
As for the 'paint doesn't shrink' faction out there, well, depending on the type, it doesn't usually last long anymore either.
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I just got the image of Kenneth Mars in "Young Frankenstein" delivering the line... "A riot is an ugly thing....but I think that it's just about time that we had one!"
I did some checking around on a few jobs I did with both Avery A8 and A6 over the summer. About half are failing, including a couple of them that were used as a base layer for SignGold. (The engine turn has an "interesting" look when the vinyl fails underneath it... )
You do make a valid point. Maybe it's time for a little noise about this whole topic, but I personally doubt it'll be loud enough to matter. Avery makes more money from envelope labels in a month than they make from A8 vinyl sales in a year. Try finding their vinyl products on the corporate website...it ain't listed. Given the fact that the distributors can take care of replacing the materials under the warranty "process" and that Avery can financially absorb the replacement costs, why should we be expecting to hear from them? The only thing I would expect to hear is an industry wide recall of the defective materials, should they determine it would be in THEIR best interest.
Let's face a few harse realities...
If the adhesives are the cause of the problem, it would make sense that Avery will be "talking" to the adhesive manufacturer first and formost so that this situation is resolved. If the failures are being caused by other factors, same thing. Take a number after that.
Welcome to corporate America!
Harshest reality... Here on the Letteville BB, a rather small percentage of the membership has felt strongly enough to post about this situation. All things being as they are, it's a far smaller percentage of the industry as a whole.
I'm not the first, and most likely won't be the last, to drop the entire Avery line and switch brand as a result of this topic and my own check on work I've done with Avery materials.
Ball's back in their court... Rapid
[ November 24, 2004, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I've been in the business for 16 years and been using vinyls since 1995 starting out with Spar-Cal which later became Avery. After the switch I delt with all kinds of shrinkage problems in Avery dating back to '97 or '98, with little or no concern from the supplier. So this is NO NEW PROBLEM TO AVERY!!!!!!!! Gary Anderson advised me to stick with 3M HP, I have since and had NO vinyl failures or shrinkage problems. I've been experimenting with ORACAL's 851 premium for about a year now and have seen no problems.
My opinion is that ORACALS 651 (6yr. Intermediate) is better than Avery's very best!!! I have a friend at another shop who has used the ORACAL 651 for everything for a couple of years now, with no failures or shrinkage.
-------------------- Russ Mills Art & Sign Studio 212 W KY Ave Pineville, KY 40977 Posts: 8 | From: Pineville, KY | Registered: Feb 2003
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-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
and i'm sure they sell to american traffic safety material...because they suk too...i emailed pictures of the failures...even took samples of the burgundy vinyl and sent it to them...we'll see what their outside lab has to say about it....i had a piece that was the shadow so there was a white letter over most of it...when i peeled it off the part that had the white letter was fine..still burg...the part that was the shadow was grayed and so thin that you could literally see thru it...like it desintergrated. needless to say i have 3 trucks and 2 two sided signs to fix from late/2000-2001...thats what i know now, it was a 50yd roll so i'm sure theres alot more out there...pi$$es me off...this business can really suk when we can't even fukin depend on the hp products we buy!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
i had problems with avery A8 too. my supplier helped me notify avery of the problem, and we even sent pictures and sample pieces for them to test. we didn't hear anything for months, but my supplier contacted me last week to tell me avery will credit my account for the bad rolls. they say the problem is straightened out, but i'm still leery. gonna stick with 3M/gerber now.
-------------------- Eric Houser Eric Houser Signs Richmond, Va Posts: 74 | From: Richmond, Va | Registered: Feb 2004
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I’ve been trying real hard not to get involved with all the rhetoric of late about our vinyl problem...but it’s just eating at me too much.
I will probably offend and flat out irritate some of you involved in this on both sides of the issue.
The most recent talk about warranties has put me over the top...so I’ll address that first.
I fully understand the manufactures warranties...I don’t think I’m going out on a limb if I say most, if not all products used in one form or another to produce an end product in any trade states product replacement only.
I know it’s not unheard of for a manufacturer to go above and beyond their stated warranty. I believe that only shows what kind of integrity that said company has and what sort of customer loyalty they deserve after the dust has settled.
As a veteran lettering person with experience in a similar product failure situation in the past, I have changed the way in which I offer any warranties to my customer’s. When I started out in this business over 25 years ago, I would proudly boast a minimum of an 8-10 year life expectancy for something that I lettered...feeling comfortable about the products I was using.
I know I’m not alone when I say the first slap in the face is when the lettering paint changed with no fore-warning from any of the manufactures from whom I’d been using their products in good faith for years.
This brings me to the point to address the couple of comments about how “paint doesn’t shrink”. That was probably one of the most ignorant comments made with regard to this very serious problem. Anyone that has been in this business long enough to go though the lettering paint change a few years ago, must agree that the use of lettering with paint for the typical day to day lettering that many of us do is no longer practical. Before some of the paint pushers out there throw the hardeners and the HOK crap at me...remember I said practical and day to day...you know...fleet stuff...squad cars...the things that customers aren’t going to want to go after with a grinder to get the lettering off when the time arrives.
I like to think that I was one of the sign PAINTERS that held out as long as I could to not accept that vinyl was and is the future of day to day lettering.
Because of the vinyl failure I experienced a few years ago, I now tell my customers I use some of the best products I can buy, but that their warranties only cover their product replacement. I can’t extend any sort of warranty beyond that myself...unless I charge double up front to cover a possible failure. Obviously some customers are concerned with my saying that but I tell them if anyone offers them a full 8 year warrantee based on a manufactures up to 8 year claim, they have no experience in this game we call the sign biz.
Now having stated the above to my customer, I follow that up with a “Don’t get me wrong...I will stand behind any problem that comes up within a reasonable amount of time”.
That brings us to the current problem at hand. I think the time frame here clearly falls under my reasonable amount of time statement, being less than a year...in many cases only months.
To continue to do business in my relatively small populated area I have no choice but to replace all of my failed jobs. First...I believe anything less than that would kill me reputation wise. Second...and most of all, I have tried to run my business with the most integrity possible, maybe that’s why I have out survived some of my competitors.
What I don’t understand is the comments like “just be happy to get the vinyl replaced”. I don’t think my customers will be satisfied with me just giving them a roll of vinyl.
Those of you that say just eat the labor...redo the work...and move on...where? To a cardboard box down by the train tracks! If I haven’t stated it before, I for one am not independently wealthy...for those of you that are...more power to ya...but I think I’m not part of a minority here.
You say replace the jobs...why? Do our customers deserve that? You’re dam right they do! Should they only get handed a roll of vinyl and be asked to come back to us again...yeah that will work out fine...won’t it! Wait...I know...maybe I can just re-letter part of their job ‘cause the vinyl manufacture only wants to partially compensate me!
I know I have insurance if the time comes that something is damaged and needs to be fixed or replaced because of something that I did wrong. I find it hard to believe that a multi billion dollar company doesn’t have some type of insurance to cover a problem like this. How do other large companies survive recalls and such?
All the talk about class action lawsuits and this and that about lawyers especially when you haven’t even taken the time to investigate any failures of your own only shows how ignorant and uneducated some people are. If anyone thinks idle threats are going to get these “suits” shaking in there boots...wake up!
It wasn’t until some of my conversations over the last few weeks that it entered into my thought process that there are scum of the earth, as some of you call it, among us, that would try to take advantage of a situation like this.
I for one can say all I want is what I believe is fair...and that is to be fully compensated for the time and materials of which it takes for me to remedy this problem with my customers. Why should I be expected to eat the labor when I have done nothing wrong to cause this failure. As I stated before, this is why you must track and document your time and materials on jobs for more than just this reason.
I also stated before I’m doing as I’ve been asked as far as the claim process goes. I’m remaining cautiously optimistic with regard to how this will be handled. As for those of you that think the continued bashing and ill commenting about the product in question is helping...THINK AGAIN!
The old saying “the squeaky wheel gets the grease” comes to mind, but how would you handle a customer that was publicly bashing you repeatedly while you’re trying to work things out. Are you gonna go out of your way for them?
Don’t get me wrong, it has certainly crossed my mind as to what I will do if this isn’t handled in what I think is a satisfactory way. But I see no value in making idle threats at this time.
Other than responding to some of the ridicules comments here and getting to vent a little, I’m trying to stay calm and take a “let’s see what they do” approach.
I know this didn’t help the process of giving the subject a rest, but I for one think this is a serious enough problem that it shouldn’t be put on the back burner!
I think some involved don’t realize that for many of us here, this may truly be a make it or break it situation.
I for one can’t afford to work for minimum wage or less for a few months while I make this right with my customers!
Jeff
-------------------- Jeff's Lettering Lisa,Luke,Dara, and Jeff Spradling 5742 Shattuck Rd. Belvidere, Il. 61008 815-544-0167
Surviving another day. Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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My intention was not to belittle your feelings. Everybody feels diffderent than the next guy.
I guess I look at it this way:
If I bought a bad turkey, and it ruined my dinner. I wouldn't expect the supermarket to cook a new one, invite my family over and make all the side dishes because the dinner I planned was ruined by a bad turkey. The only thing I would get from them is a new fresh raw turkey.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Ok: But if you got sick because of your bad turkey...went to the hospital(large bill)...lost wages from lack of work...you wouldn't expect to get compensated?
You can come up with all the analogies you want...but the bottom line is we're talking about thousands of dollars of labor here...at least I am...how can you expect some one to just eat that?
I'm apparently just confused by the fact that some people are not seeing the tremendous financial burden this will cause some of us.
I have several hundred yards of this out there that needs to be replaced!
I'm a one man shop...who's gonna feed my family while I work for nothing for a few months?
Jeff
-------------------- Jeff's Lettering Lisa,Luke,Dara, and Jeff Spradling 5742 Shattuck Rd. Belvidere, Il. 61008 815-544-0167
Surviving another day. Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Jeff take a pill....you're complaining about this thread and the other yet you're the one that started it and now crying like you're the only one thats it affects because you're not getting an answer that satisfies you personally. Also what are these "SECRET ANSWERS" that have been learned apparently in midnight phone conversations,under cover of darkness and in secret underdog code? I guess it was completely idiotic of some to suggest a signshop paint some fleet vehicles,or maybe back in 1973 when they decided on removing lead from paint they should have called you first and gotten your input.Why did you continue to use this vinyl if you suspected there was a problem in the first place? Sorry but I can't believe that just magically,all jobs with this vinyl just went poof all at the same time,there had to have been some prior warning that was overlooked. What you think you're entitled to is an entirely different animal than what reality is gonna dictate you get,and sorry if you dont like my opinion on it but you're coming across like you're more deserving than others of extended compensation for this whole matter. So far you've pretty much shot down or condemned everyone elses opinion or scenario like you know what the root cause is..........maybe you do and maybe you dont......my guess is that there's an answer you want to hear,you're not hearing it and you're not gonna accept anything until you do. Get some patience cuz you may be waiting a long time
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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jeff...i totally feel your pain...and yes i think you have very valid points because i'm in the same boat...if anyone here thinks i like spending my weekends redoing jobs because these fukin dipshyts can't take any responsiblity for the crap they sold me then i don't know what else to say.(and i was UNAWARE of any problems! and when i did notice it...i stopped using the shyt) i not only paid good money for the product but my reputation is on the line here. and sorry rick i can't equate a crappy turkey to this situation...and even at best you get double your money back at the grocery store...this is business we are talking about here...making a chain reaction.
so if someone was building a house and the electrical contractor used some wiring that he always used in the past and was reputable...and lets say the house burned down due to some faulty wires(not wiring on the elctricians part)...do you think the people involved should just settle for a new roll of wire??? perhaps i'm going to the extreme also...but i can see where this could bankrupt some small one man shops...lets say you spent months on a new contract with a fleets and the avery shyt you used makes it so the job has to be replaced because it was layered...that's our fault??...the company shouldn't take any responsiblity??? sorry that's bullshyt! i don't pay good money for my products just to be a fukin beta tester. these are big multi million companies! they are the ones that should have the insurance for this sort of thing....not the little sign peon.
i work long enough hours...the thought of having to go out again this weekend and redo something else(for free) makes me want to stick an exacto thru the a$$holes eye who tried to just cover this up and hoped it would go away.
no wonder sign people are such a joke...talk about a ballsless bunch of people who won't stick up for themselves....oh please can you wear the boots with the big spikes when you kick me in the head again...thanks corporate!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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That's the price of complete independance. Each little shop is treated like an individual account. Losing one little account is nothing when the money is measured in multi millions.
Now, if the day comes when there are some unity for the little shops then there will be some power. Little bizz guys formed co-ops all over this country. Look at True Value hardwares for example. Before they were just little shops doing everything. Now they are under one banner, have respect, have buying power and do not put up with screwin's.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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First, I really think Rapid was ball busting when he said "Paint don't shrink". I thought it was funny in a morbid sort of way but funny none-the-less.
On to the subject at hand...
I, too, have several hundred yards of vinyl lettering out there. I am anxiously awaiting to see which ones are going to or have already failed. Do you honestly think that I relish the thought of replacing all the lettering I have done in the last year or so? Trust me, brother, I do not!
Yeah, I am going to eat the labor, the time, the whatever associated with the failures that are coming. I don't want to but I have little choice. At least I will have some of my materials back. I have already started back tracking my materials to see who has to replace what. This doesn't make a ballless sack, just realistic. (That was funny, KB)
I would think that in order for any of us to receive compensation for our labor, we are going to have to provide ample proof of just what our labor costs are. I can't assume that they are going to just pay off my invoice amounts. I wouldn't be entitled to make my profit margin again.
The documentation time alone, unless I already have it done as part of my records, is going to exceed the time to re-do some of the jobs. Just how I could document my time aside from having time machine stamps on my work orders? I can't do this. I doubt they are going to take my word for it.
You do make an excellent point about documenting these kind of things. I doubt I am going to go out and buy a time stamp machine unless it was affordable. I haven't looked into the cost but I do think I might.
I really wish that the manufacturers will step up but they don't have to. You have to remember that what is the legal thing to do isn't always what is the right thing to do. I, for one, am not going to hold my breath waiting for a check. My Daddy used to tell me, "You can hold a wish in one hand and s*** with the other."
We all are just going to have to wait and see what is going to happen. I am not going to get my bowels in an uproar just yet.
[ November 27, 2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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One thing you can do Jeff. When you get the replacement rolls or whatever, sell em to somebody who still wants to use them, then get a vinyl you can depend on. I dont use avery, and because of what Ive read here, Im pretty sure I wont. Replacing that much work would definitely make me gun shy.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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They really weren't idle threats I was making in my note to Avery Dennison. I read no less than 35 of these posts asking Avery to respond (or wondering why they hadn't) - but nobody asked them directly. So I did.
It's like this . . . when I want to know when WalMart closes, I don't call and ask my wife (who seems to know that sort of stuff). I call WalMart and ask them. As I said in my post, there's a lot of people not very happy here - but NOBODY bothered to contact the corporate office and ask them straight up "What the hell is going on with A8?"
They can issue a press release - or be silent. Either way, we'll have an answer from them - and a direction to go. At least that's my hope. Perhaps they are even unaware at the corporate level of what is happening in the field. And yes, they surely do have liability insurance coverage on some of their products - maybe even A8.
Someone else brought up the words "class-action" first, I repeated them for a reason - and my intent was not to get people's opinions of lawyers - anymore than it was to find out if they like cheeseburgers. That is irrelevant.
But organization at the lowest level is what starts these things rolling - corporate realizes that (part of their risk management culture) - and I simply made a suggestion to them that they say anything to address this in the 'first strike' attempt at resolution.
I know you think I'm a ding-dong for speaking up when I haven't even had a problem surface, Jeff. But I'm in the sign biz - and I see people like you and others far more affected by this than my business. So I speak on their behalf - not to be against you - but with you.
And with a very deep understanding of just how things work at the corporate level, I reached into my 'bag of tricks' and decided that what was missing here was the lack of anyone asking corporate - not a field rep or supplier - for some straight answers.
I'm pretty sure that's the first time anyone tried that regarding this matter. If it doesn't work - I'm probably going to be as passive about this post as I had been. Until I see jobs failing, that is!! Then I may make a little more noise.
Let's wait and see if they respond . . .
[ November 27, 2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I want to apologize to anyone I have offended here during this mess. It was not my intention to make any enemies here.
As I said before one of my reasons for bringing this up here was to see if I were not alone…as I have been told too many times before “You’re the only one with that going on”. Also if I were not alone my belief is there is strength in numbers.
All I can say is if anyone thinks this was started for my own personal gain or that I think I’m more deserving than others…you really missed what I have said here and you really don’t know me. I have went back and read this entire thread…I regret that I got caught up in the heat of the moment with my “Well here we go” post. I think we all have bad days where our emotions get the best of us…not unlike others here I’ve been having my fair share lately. I know…that’s know excuse…things could be worse. I was going to delete that post…but I guess that wouldn’t be fair to the ones that have responded to it.
What I didn’t take into consideration is the different levels of comprehension with regard to something being posted here. It’s been said before…posting here is much different than a one on one conversation. With that said I for one will refrain from any more discussion here on this topic.
Bill D., Rick B, Ray, Kelly T, Jay and anyone else I have offended please accept my apology and best of luck to everyone affected by this problem.
Sincerely Jeff
[ November 27, 2004, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Spradling ]
-------------------- Jeff's Lettering Lisa,Luke,Dara, and Jeff Spradling 5742 Shattuck Rd. Belvidere, Il. 61008 815-544-0167
Surviving another day. Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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