Funny you should ask these questions right now. I have noticed a halo of glue around some jobs I have done within the last year. One project was done just 4 months ago.
I am using Avery A8 series vinyls and never noticed this happening before.
I have been told the shelf life on vinyl is about two years. I toss the vinyl when it starts feeling brittle or the glue is loosing it's tac. I don't want to deal with the cost of a job failure from outdated material.
I expect a halo of glue when using economy calender vinyl, but not from the cast, expensive stuff.
Just my opinion.
Pam, Pam's Signs
-------------------- Pam Eddy Niles, MI ple@qtm.net Posts: 460 | From: Michigan | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
Its the Avery vinyl. I recently had rolls of hp cast vinyl shrink right on the roll itself. My supplier informed that Avery had a big problem with alot of their hp vinyl being defective. My supplier offered to replace it all.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
The few peices of vinyl that I have, "scrap" which is 5 to 10 ft of assorted colours and kinds, have been around as long 2-3 years and look fine.
I have them hanging on dowels, and they are either rolled around card board tubes and covered in plastic sleeves, or rolled inside the tubes . . . All other scraps are tossed in small boxes marked in basic colour groups on a shelf and always look ok 'cept for a little dust here, over-spray there . . just wipe it off and go with it . . .
However, I DO notice my rolls of clear-masked striping separating from the backing unless I REALLY carefully store them flat IN their card-board packages . . .
I also notice that if its a year or more old, after using it and removing the clear masking, there is a glue residue on the actual vinyl left by the masking, but is always easily removed with mineral spirits.
95% of my vinyl purchase is premium cast 7 year outdoor, or reflective, from Gregory (Trendfilm & Scotch)
ON the exterior substrates of vehicles, alum. glass . . .
I notice the shrinkage and glue residue around the edges BEGINS at about 5 years ('specially on south facing sides) and by 7 - 8 years hair-line cracks begin to form all over the material . . .
I notice signs in shade, under a porch, north or east facing, or good maintenance by the customer extends this time frame considerabley.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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1: yes 2: Avery and 3M 3: sixty fourth to thirty second of an inch 4: ANY shrinkage, but it is inevitable 5: YES 6: 5 or 6 years 7: Nope
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I've had terrible shrinkage with some Avery A8-EZ this year. Avery did replace the rolls of vinyl, I'm taking pictures of several large jobs that will have to be re-done because of terrible shrinkage, I hope Avery will step up and take care of thousands of dollars of labor. Shrinkage was 1/4" inch after being on the trailers for two weeks close to that much shrinkage on the roll too. The rolls I had trouble with were almost a year and a half old when I purchased them....even though my supplier advertises the "freshest" vinyl around.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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That is excessive! I find the EZ very cost restrictive, thus have used very little of it. Now, I'm glad I steered clear. I do enjoy installing it much more than Gerber, but, you can't argue with Gerber's low shrink rate either.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I've got three trucks right now showing terrible (1/8" - 1/4") shrinkage. I thought it might just be me.
It was Avery A8 and one was a layered, reflective job, and it ruined the reflective along with the base black. I took pictures and will be sending them to Avery soon.
I sure don't want to eat these jobs. Luckily they were all for very good, understanding customers that know I back my work up!
posted
I use Trendfilm and 3M from Gregory. I have recently used a little Avery A8 and am a little concerned now.
I've never noticed any shrinkage from Trendfilm or 3M on the roll. I've seen it shrink about a hair wide on two color center punched out type install.
I do not use outdated film unless it is a temporary or indoor sign. We use outdated film as a cat hair remover, we use it to roll small knap rollers from Sure Line to remove the loose lint before rolling panels, and donate some to my wifes art classes.
Gregory stamps a "warranteed to" date on all the vinyl they sell. Never have any doubts as to whether the vinyl is still good or not.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
This picture was taken two weeks after installation, I always cut along the panel seam, as you can see there is quite a bit of shrinkage. This happened with four different colors. I have this complete 55' trailer, eight other trailers with logos on the back doors, and four box trucks with 20' boxes all done around the same time with EZ, all showing excessive shrinkage. I did talk with Avery's regional customer rep, he wants prices on removal and replacement but said it would have to be approved by the board.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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I've noticed 1/8" shrinkage (glue halo) using Avery A8, especially on my own van, after only 4 months. I've used it on a few other jobs, I'm starting to get concerned. Posts: 521 | From: Victoria BC | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
This year I've been purchasing material from Arlon. Of course the jobs done with this are still less than a year old but no complaints thus far. I've always used Gerber/3M in the past but will $tick with Arlon if it perform$ a$ well.
-------------------- Ron Wakefield Signs by Ron Southington, CT ron@signsbyron.com Posts: 71 | From: Southington, CT | Registered: Jul 2004
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I noticed it on a van I did this past spring. It came in for repairs from a fender bender. I used black Avery 8 yr. Can't remember whether I put it on wet or dry. Glue line was about 1/16 th.
[ November 04, 2004, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Avery's A8 problems are with any vinyl with a lot number starting with these numbers and letters. 3H 3I 3J 3K 3L 4A 4B 4C 4D 4E 4F 4G followed by the rest of the lot number. They have issued a recall on all these from the distributors.
Fred
-------------------- Fred Floyd Carolina Vinyl Wilmington, NC USA Posts: 62 | From: Wilmington, NC USA | Registered: Sep 2001
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Great Fred! Now all we have to do is go through our trash for the last year to find the boxes. Who keeps the boxes? Is there another way to tell? If I read the code correctly, that's everything from August '03 to July '04.
This stinks! Most of my rolls in the past year have been A8. 3 empty boxes I have laying around here are in the ranges you stated. What a great way to build a good reputation in a new town!? Can Avery fix that?
[ November 04, 2004, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Fred, The rolls I had trouble with are all 3D except for one 3G and one 82J...all EZ Apply If Avery is recalling from the distributors what about if we have stock with those lot numbers?
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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David, Thanks for the heads up reminder on the core label. It is inside of a full roll (10 or 50), but when my local distributor has to make a ten yard roll out of a 50 yarder, there is no printed Avery label, so I guess I'm SOL there.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I've used Arlon/Calon II since I began... never had a failure, shrinkage, or halo problem.
You get what you pay for.
I have only used other brands on temporary signage that will be used for less than 1 year.
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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I have NEVER in the 15 years we've been using vinyl had any of our vinyls shrink...I have always used Gerber and 3 M products H/P and won't use any intermediate for anything other than banners.
Scary thing is my supplier just informed me they are going more and more to Avery and away from Gerber...why because Avery is offering better discounts.Never mind the fact that I am willing to pay the higher price for the better materials.
In the morning I am going to call them and have them come here and read this post. Maybe ...just maybe they will see the error of their ways.
[ November 05, 2004, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Welcome to the almighty dollar... suppliers get bigger kickbacks, or higher markups and pass the material off as the "Same quality"... it's just not true.
I will add that I also trust 3M materials.
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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I've been on the phone with my vendors this morning. Ameriban says they are picking up the A8...Reece Supply says Avery tells them there is no recall....Denver Supply knows nothing of the recall either....now I'm all confused
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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I printed this topic out yesterday and sent it back to our supplier when we got our delivery. The delivery guy said he would show it to the company head and commented on the fact that this was pretty cool that we had a site like this to discuss things like this and problems we were having. I said "Well, maybe your company needs to be a vendor? They should check this place out...." I will follow up with a call today....might as well use this as an opportunity to show them what we have here!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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i had terrible with shrinkage with american traffic safety material last year..and total failure with maroon. i'll never use them again! they wouldn't even call me back about it...just blew me off. i only use gerber 3M or 3M!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Geez, this is scary for me. When I first started in the bus. I followed everyone's advice about using only hp cast vinyl. My supplier stocked and started me using Universal products, which I believe was the same as avery. They have switched right over to Avery now, and I've been using Avery HP all along. I've had some trouble with avery stripes, but never with the vinyl. hmmmmmmm
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Sue it's scary for me too, I use a lot of Avery. I just postponed a utility trailer job scheduled for today because when I picked up my roll of A8 bright yellow to start cutting I noticed it has shrunk up from the edges of the release liner about 3/16" leaving a sticky edge of adhesive, the roll is practically stuck to itself. I used this roll about 2 months ago and had no shrinkage at that time, or at least not enough to notice. I think I'm going to postpone the wrecker I was going to do this afternoon till I can get some 3M vinyl in the house.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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I haven't had any problem with Avery vinyl. I spoke with my Avery rep earlier about this and he's suppost to call me back with more info after he leaves the show he's at. He told me to check the rolls I have, run my finger along the edge and see if there is any glue there, indicating shrinkage. I'll also write down the lot numbers on the rolls. No idea what to do about the rolls I've already used up or about the ones that show up without a lot # on them. Guess I'll start refusing those.
I suggest that anyone who has any problems with this or is concerned call their rep.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I'm breaching board etiquette by using my Son's name to post, but this is important. First, I've had an in-depth with the honchos at Avery AND the Northwest Rep since I'm a distributor. BTW.......... NONE of our customers have experienced the "1/4" shrinkage spoken of here. And that picture of the film gap over a seam?? Give me a break. Any experienced installer knows exactly what that's about. NOT ONE SINGLE LOT, SERIES or COLOR has been recalled by Avery. None! Your info is flawed. Want the truth? Call the factory rep., David at 940 367-9182 Have they had any problems? Of course they have. Just like every other manufacturer during their careers. Remember the across-the-board Arlon/Calon failures in the late 80s? It happens, but Avery has NEVER had the magnitude failures experienced by 3M, Arlon, White, Spartan and 3 others in Europe. Easy to slam a mfg. when the fault typically lies with the installer. Yours truly is no virgin, folks. I began with Arlon in-house, when they were still a 3M converter and the widest film was 1" automotive. I was there with the first coating line built at Arlon by Jim Welsch. ALL of them have had minor failures from time to time. When humans are involved on the coating line and in the lab, **** happens. I'm a 20 year Avery distributor, and I take no crap from any manufacturer. Right is right. Wrong is wrong and all you have to do is find the reason. Communication solves everything. Take care, Letterheads.
I would like you to explain your thoughts on how that photo is installer error. I have no less than four trailers doing the same thing with A8 on them. I also have several years of work out there installed the same way without that type of failure.
An Avery rep just left my shop...Avery clearly knows there is a problem...the photos I showed him, which are very similar to Mark's above, show an obvious vinyl break down.
I won't go into the details of our discussion here for more than one reason...mainly I don't type that fast! If you would like, feel free to call me.
I also pointed out this thread to him...he was very interested in the input here.
All I can say is if you're experiencing any of the problems mentioned above I suggest you contact your supplier or better yet try to get in contact with a rep.
Jeff
-------------------- Jeff's Lettering Lisa,Luke,Dara, and Jeff Spradling 5742 Shattuck Rd. Belvidere, Il. 61008 815-544-0167
Surviving another day. Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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Pierre That picture is mine. The vinyl was trimmed along the panel seam after installation...I do it all the time and have never had a problem except with A8 EZ. I have 5 rolls of A8 EZ and one roll of A8 here in my shop and the vinyl has shrunk back from the edge of the roll a lot
these pictures were taken two weeks after installation, the trailer was inside a shop the whole time getting the suspension rebuilt.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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close to that much shrinkage on the roll too. The rolls I had trouble with were almost a year and a half old when I purchased them....even though my supplier advertises the "freshest" vinyl around. ![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
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