posted
Remember the first time you saw one of those new Computerized sign makers? the old 4b? what did you think of them? and did you think that they were going to have as much of an effect on our Craft as you thought? I learned pretty fast that I'd better jump on board and at least educate myself about them. I was hand lettering for about 10 years before I saw one, almost scared the **** out of me. lol
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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I first saw one in 1984 at Cornell University. A friend of mine worked there and he talked me into going to see this "thing". I couldn't get it out of my head! Two months later I had one! You have keep up with the competition. Just like in racing, if someone puts new rubber on their car for the race....you better have new rubber on yours!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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I stopped to visit Bill Koveley in Santa Ana and saw his 4a in 83 or 84. We watched it and laughed. I didn't feel at all threatened by it. I even sent some specifications down to him for making some patterns and sending them up to me. It was when the customer came in to see his big sandblasted three part sign on custom milled lumber after it was stained and painted that he noticed it was misspelled. My second experience was another last minute disaster.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I witnessed Gerbers very first demo they put on in 1982 on Long Island. Their first machine was called the Signmaker III. About forty sign shop people showed up and most of them seemed less than impressed.
I however had driven three hours to see that first demonstration and on the way home could barely contain my excitement. I knew instantly this was the future and it was what I needed if I was to stay in the sign business. I was burning out fast from all the hand lettering I was cranking out. I was overwhelmed with work and finding skilled help where I was then was out of the question.
I remember the day it arrived and the first paying job I did with it. I remember all of the $300 font modules, font extender, inline/outling and special effects modules. Most of all I remember being the only shop for three years that could deliver work in two weeks compared to everyone else at 6-8 weeks. Service paid a premium in those days and I was King!
Going back ten years prior to the Signmaker, I can still remember my very first hand painted sign and where it all began. Guess I'm lucky I still can remember anything.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
Well, I know that I don't fall into that category of "old timer", but I will try to remember.
One of the problems is that I've been washing my hands with paint thinner for 45 years and it has done something to my brain cells.
I suppose one of the first ones I saw was at Mike Jackson's shop or possibly photographs he had sent. If it had a cord attached to it Mike was one of the first to buy it.
When I hosted the Lone Star Letterheads in '83 we had a supplier demonstrating one and then we bought one the following year. It was hard to get any work done because I wanted to sit and watch it work. It was amazing. I knew from the beginning that it would change the way we did business...for the better.
By the way, that same IVB is still running every day...after 20 years.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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My first experience with the Gerber 4b was also at Mike Jacksons when I worked there in 1983-84 at the time I thought it was a really important tool for making patterns...but I have to be truthful here. It really ticked me off that I had spent 30 years learning and perfecting my craft and along comes someone that puts all my hard earned skills in a box that sits on the counter and it's now capable of making "ugly signs perfectly".(I too ended up owning one and sold it 5 years later for nearly as much as I had given for it.)
That took some getting over (and I'm not really over it) but once the Grafix Advantage came out I had to have one just to compete with the "new" kids on the block.
This should have been a time when everyones prices went up but instead it added a new way of doing signs more quickly and for some reason people decided if they could do it quicker they could sell it for less.
What a stupid concept...You pay thousands up front for the equipment and now you have a sign maker on board 24 /7 that never gets sick, shows up for work everyday doesn't get paid for holidays, makes no demand for insurance and instead of working it to death everyone "worshiped" the damn box.
Oddly enough this same phenomenon is repeating itself with the advent of digital printing.
Now you can replicate (perfectly) a Rembrant and everyone is selling it for $5.00 a square foot.
Go figure...will we ever learn to make money with our new technology or are we destined forever to subscribe to the image of the broken down tired old business we seem to love being a part of?
Don't get me wrong ..I love this business I'd just like to see some common sense along the way...and some money (if you don't mind).
What was the question again?
[ October 29, 2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
I recall back in the 60s while hand cutting silk screen stencils, we were talking about how neat it would be if they made a machine to do that.
Everyone agreed that would be impossible.
I think it was 82 or 83 that I got my 4b. Everyone would stand around just to listen to the noises it made.....I have used many different ones since that time, but still love the clean cuts it made.
My next one was a Gerber Sprint.
-------------------- Rove Gratz Gratz Signs 342 Walden Station Drive Macon, GA 31216 rovegratz@aol.com Home Page: http://rove-342.tripod.com Posts: 861 | From: Macon, GA 31216 | Registered: Jan 2004
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And how did you like the way Gerber "bent you over" with the Sprint when they wouldn't take you to the next natural upgrade of the Grafix Advantage. Which rendered the Sprint as a dinosaur no one wanted to buy (after they promised everyone they would be able to update their machines). I know people that will never again buy Grerber over that one...luckily we passed on Sprint and waited til the perfected the Grafix Advantage.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
I remember my first time. It was an old Gerber 4B with only about four font possibilities. Very impressive though. Today, I have a full Edge II system.
While others may be negative about Gerber, I have nothing but praise for them and their software. Man, has their stuff evolved! Many lower priced options today thanks to the early Gerber pioneers who paved the way for today's marketplace. My .02
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I've never owned a letter cutting machine. I remember seeing the first one I saw and was amazed at how they worked. Like others above I LOVE the cool noises it makes as it cuts around the letters and shapes.
I've not done too much hand lettering either. While the first truck door or trailer side was always a lot of fun, I got pretty bored with the second one... especially if I had to do it the same as the other side.
I've bought a bit of lettering over the years, mostly for my own vehicles which have been many. I've always enjoyed watching those magical lettering machines work when I went to pick it up at another's shop.
All in all the mechanization of signshops has driven me harder towards the fringe, specialized market we enjoy.
If I had gone with a conventional sign shop I would definitely be using one of the machines today.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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. . I have never had a plotter either . . well, not one HOOKED UP . . lol
Around '87, I was hand cutting on a band-saw & scroll-saw . . . ALL of the backs from aluminum, and faces from acrylic, for channel letters that our shop turned out. . .
Then my boss got a SHELL contract . . .
Shortly after he made that announcement, he had me clean out a huge corner of the shop.
A bunch'a people came in the shop and there was a flurry of activity. It seemed as if a simple level was the god of tools that day . . .
When the dust died down, I had no idea WHAT I was looking at . . . .
It was a huge flat 'table about 12 foot square, about 30" high, with a series of bar-like things that could slide back and forth in any direction . . .
It looked like a futuristic, computerized barge . . .
My boss looked at me with a big grin and said, "Technology just got your job . . ."
I proceded the next few days to be, almost, happy about that, except this machine could kick-out WAY more backs and faces than I had time to fabricate.
I was sorely slackin' on makin' "production", LOL
Between weldin' returns with that 'blankety' wire welder, and trim-cappin' faces with those 'blankety' magnets, drillin' knock-out holes, and breakin' neon a lil' too often, tryin' to make some alleged dead-line, (lol) feeling 'burnt-out' was an understatement . . .
One day, when my hands were about to rot-off from 9,000 various cuts, burns and cramps . . . I remember just 'goin'-off' . . . shattering a peice of neon I'd just cracked, as I threw it down on the floor as hard as I could, I tried to grab magnets and throw them too, (but pitchin' a fit takes more energy than I had just then to remove them from the steel-topped table, lol) . . . and screamed something about how UNIMPRESSED I really was with super-technology being SO brilliant as to be be able to create a machine that could CUT so many perfect letters, so FAST, but was totally UNABLE to do any kind of FABRICATION . . . .
LOL, seems like I got a the rest of the day off or somethin' . . . .
That is my vivid memeory of the (welcome) intrusion of plotters . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Well now, my first time was up Gabes Branch hollow, and she was the cutest little,... Oh, wrong first time. Sorry!
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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YES, I remember. My thoughts and words were, it will never replace a journeyman signpainter! As of yet, it still hasn't.
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Well Jack, in my experience, it replaced a few who THOUGHT they were journeymen - It was like a great equlizer. After that they had to get a lot humbler or a lot better. The really good paint slingers adapted and specializing in things the machines still sould not do, or concentrated on honing their layout skills and became operators. (or a little of both). Everybody else sort of drifted away. There was no more room for below-par painters.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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A Gerber Signmaker 3, in '83 or so? It had such horrid kerning! The guy I was working for at the time used to tell tales of his uncle who did gold leaf work in Cleveland, Ohio in the 30's and 40's. Don't recall the any names but I guess there was a culture of jewish gold leaf signmen back then and they wore suits and derbys. Anybody able to contribute to this?
posted
I remember vividly the non-relenting cramp in my right trapezius muscle from hand-lettering what seemed like the Declaration of Independence on the sides, back and over the cab of a big box truck that "had" to be done on a Saturday. I must have used a pint of One Shot on the job, it was so much copy. My right shoulder seized up and with only very brief relief, it stayed cramped up for over 5 years. If it had not been for the IVB I would have had to find something else to do.
I remember the funky noises the IVB made too; now I listen to the servo's on my Envision. They are like little electric race cars standing on the brakes before they blast off. The noise I hear when it (or the Edge) runs is "cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching". BTW, I still refer to my Edge as the "George Foreman Magnum BBQ Grill".
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I saw my first one at a Letterhead Meet that Product Sign Supply was hosting in San Jose (84?). A signman had it in his van and people were all huddled around checking it out and all agreed it would probably come in handy for small copy such as Bank Hours.
-------------------- Rich Stebbing RichSigns Rohnert Park CA 707-795-5588 Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I had worked in the 70's at a commercial sign shop ( they did everthing form hand painting to erecting billboards).
We made quite a few signs with vinyl die cut letters for doctors and lawyers offices. It was a real pain if we screwed up the vinyl letters because it took another week to order and get in more, thus delaying the project.
We always thought it would be nice if we had the capability to make these in the shop. I went into my own business in 1980 and shortly thereafter my former employeer bought one of the first Gerber plotters. I went over to their shop to see it run and knew I wanted one as soon as I could afford it.
I always viewed the vinyl plotting machine as valuable tool for a certain type of sign, another product that could be used for certain clients, nothing more.
The "market" for quick cheap signage surprized me at first. All in all I was glad to see this invention come into the sign shops as well as the thermal and ink jet printers.
I have enjoyed learning all the different aspects of the sign industry over the last 34 years, from hand lettering (which we still do) to the newer forms of signmaking.
posted
I first caught wind of this 'machine' in the '84. Just seemed like too big an investment at the time. Managed to keep busy painting signs the old-fashioned way until early '97. Getting some computer experience experience while working in the advertising department of a daily newspaper convinced me that was the way to go to increase productivity.
After several years of almost exclusive vinyl work I decided my niche was old-fashioned sign making/painting instead of competing head on with all the exclusive plotter jockeys in town.
Now my plotter sits unused for days, sometimes weeks. It get much more action making patterns for painted and dimensional projects than it does actual vinyl signs.
-------------------- Happy Signing...... Marty
M.F. (Marty) Happy Signmaker Since 1974 Happy Ad Sign & Design Regina SK, Canada S4N 5K4 306-789-9567 happyad@sasktel.net www.happyad.ca
Get Happy & Get Noticed! Posts: 773 | From: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Jan 1999
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In early 1983, I priced a super Leteron from Texas Sign Supply. I already had their Econ-O-Sign machine. The sales rep gave me pricing and told me that before I made my decision, he wanted me to go to a demo on a new product the following day. I showed up at the Marriot meeting room and saw my first Signmaker III. After the demonstration, he asked if I still wanted the bigger Leteron. I replied: “Nope.” Since the Signmaker III did not kern (neither did the Leteron) I waited a year until the IV-A came out to buy one. Over 20 years and less than $100 of service later, it is still cranking out the work.
Although Gerber revolutionized the sign industry, I don’t spend much money with them because I felt they needed a class action suit brought against them for foisting off on the industry the GDS (Graphics Design Station). Their advertising stated: “If you can draw it, you can cut it.” That was only true if you were drawing strictly straight lines and circles. They came out with the GDSII software a year or so later, which made the digitizing station marginally useful. Of course, all the suckers who had forked over good money for the GDS had to pay about $1200 for the two floppies that upgraded it.
Therefore, as a matter of principle, I buy very few Gerber products, however, if someone wanted to test those principles by forcing on me an Edge II in really good condition with a few dozen foils for about three grand...
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Joe Gerber[may he rest in peace] and his merry gang of engineers from Manchester,Ct first introduced this signpainter killing machine to the sign industry in Nov./Dec. 81 or Jan./Feb.82,somewhere around that date,I remember it was very cold.
It was in Hartford,CT at one of the big hotels.
If I remember corectly,the word got out thru Garston Sign Supply in East Hartford. I'm from the Springfield,MA area 25 miles away.
It was like geting stuck in the eye with a sharp stick...seeing that machine do it's dance of death to us signpainters.
I remember Gordon Agnoli[Agnoli Signs] bought two of the machines. He always had the best of everything [except signpainters].
O well,I started lettering in 1964 BC,got almost a 20 year run in before the machines caught on.
I feel bad for the painters that started learning to letter in the mid to late 70's. Just getting to be the master of that tiny brush,& the charcoal to layout right on the pattern paper, then that blue box hits the sign world...
$9,999.00 GERBER 3a, Holy Cow,Blue box w/1 font. $1,300.00 Font Extender, $300.00 each font. Waited a year or so, then bought a Ivory box, ARTY 3, then couple years ARTY 4.
I felt I got the best of Gerber.The ARTY came w/5 fonts, & slots for 21 fonts total built right into machine[no need for font extender].
$8,700.00 Total cost...This machine was made by Gerber for Compugraphic Graphics. All same specs as Gerber 4b,only had 9 font slots. Arty had 21 fonts built in. Gerber has built in Helvetica [ugly even in the 80's] Arty has built in Garth font.
Compugraphic Corp. manuf.the fonts for Gerber machines. The co.s had problems. Gerber would not service Arty machines. Never had a problem.
Arty was not allowed to advertise in any tade mags. or sign shows. Saw Arty ad in advertise/print magazine.
-------------------- Kent Moss Greg Moss Signs Posts: 363 | From: Wilbraham, MA / Charleston,SC | Registered: Nov 2003
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I was doing a little graphic design and t-shirt design at the time, a friend of my brother-in-law was a Trim-Line guy, around 1983 he started getting into signage and invited me to check out his new gadget. A Gerber 4B and later he had it hooked up to a Mac Classic, but I remember that being later, the digitizing tablet was massive.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Well, I'm not an "old timer," but I grew up in my dad's shop, and he's an "old timer."
My dad didn't think computers could invade the sign industry because "you couldn't teach a computer to use a brush."
Eventually, the plotters came. Dad became intereseted in them when I was like 11 or 12. We couldn't afford one, so, we satisfied ourselves by looking at their ads in the sign mags.
Dad did begin to order letters from Gregory for copy-heavy signs (like all the junk on a construction-site sign).
A few years later, Dad sold his business and moved to Pensacola, where he managed a sign company that had an old IVb with like 8 fonts. The company expanded and bought a more modern system, which included:
an 8Mhz computer with a 20 meg hd. and an amber monochrome monitor
a digitizing tablet
a 30inch plotter (you adjusted down force by stacking weights on the blade)
a small pen plotter for presentation sketches (it was almost useless)
dos-based sign design software that would have made Corel 3 look very advanced.
several fonts...20, 100...I can't remember, but it was more than 8.
It took a two-member tech team several days to set this up and train the users.
The sign design program was very slow and difficult to use, but it was still much better than the little LED display on the IVb.
My dad had been thrust into this computer stuff with little training. One thing we did totally wrong was the method of applying application tape. We would leave about 1/16" of the bottoms of the letters sticking out of the tape...that way we could line 'em up on the baseline we would draw on the sign. Applying the letters was a major pain because one wrong move with the squeegee and you'd roll or crease one of those letter bottoms. Plus it would take a few tries to get the letters straigt on...we didn't know you could leave the liner on and do the hinge thing...we used lots of application fluid.
My Roland CX-300 sets up and operates a lot like any printer for a computer--no tech team required. I can cut right out of Corel 12. The thing is super fast and very quiet. It was a factory refurb for $2000. The computer with all the bells and whistles was $1800, and it does a lot more than signs. Corel 12 was just over $300 and it comes with 1000 fonts. All total...$4100. Not bad compared to $10,000 for a Gerber IVb so many years ago.
Funny thing is...I see lots of advantages to hand-lettering (even if you use the plotter for patterns). It is easier to redo an old paint job than an old vinyl job. There is less waste with paint. Materials cost less. If you are a true signwriter...there is a natural look that computers can barely duplicate. But I tried it a few times...I'd need years to be a signwriter. It's hard to beat the convenience of vinyl graphics.
[ October 30, 2004, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
-------------------- William Bass wjb71@bellsouth.net Northwest Florida Posts: 636 | From: Pensacola, FL | Registered: Aug 2004
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